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Frank Hovis

London stabbngs: men blamed, women transfer this to them

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The whole nation has gone peak Cathy Newman!

Michael Wilshaw, ex chief of Ofsted, clearly points the finger of blame at absent fathers:

Quote

 

 "When I was teaching 50 years ago, when we had a problem with a youngster, mum and dad used to turn up.

"Even though they may be separated, even though they may be going through all sorts of family problems, mum and dad always turned up. You don’t see that now - this is about dads not caring.

"Dads are neglecting their children and providing terrible role models to their young men who then go astray."

 

 

And the responses are in perfect Cathy Newman idiot mode: So you're blaming single mothers?
 

Quote

 

"Blaming single parent mothers. Classic 80s move that. The system works against single parent mothers, always has and always will."

"So single mothers are raising killers? Tbh I’m a little bit insulted by that."

"In a word no! It’s like saying these single mothers have done a bad job bring up their children alone."

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6190398/sir-michael-wilshaw-ofsted-accused-blaming-single-mums-gang-violence/

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The mothers cant control male teenagers they are female and don't understamd how the male psyche operates.

They wouldn't have a clue what their sons are up too when running the streets / hanging with their mandems etc 

If they've not got a bloke around to suss them out and keep them on the straight and narrow then they can and do go out of control with criminality  / drugs and gang violence etc 

So in some respect there is an element of truth in it. 

Edited by WorkingPoor

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1 minute ago, WorkingPoor said:

The mothers cant control male teenagers they are female and don't understamd how the male psyche operates.

They wouldn't have a clue what their sons are up too when running the streets / hanging with their mandems etc 

If they've not got a bloke around to suss them out and keep them on the straight and narrow then they can and do go out of control with criminality  / drugs and gang violence etc 

So i some respect there is an element of truth in it. 

But he's very clearly not blaming them and, unless they've deliberately got pregnant without being in a relationship, it's not them who have condemned the child to not having a father.

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2 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

But he's very clearly not blaming them and, unless they've deliberately got pregnant without being in a relationship, it's not them who have condemned the child to not having a father.

Problem is the government will provide "role models" in the shape of Yoof clubs run by reformed gangsta rappers who tell tall tales about their drug dealing exploits and then they all start mixing records and MC'ing on the mic, propagating the "gangsta" scene futher.

Bring back National Service lol 

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1 minute ago, WorkingPoor said:

Problem is the government will provide "role models" in the shape of Yoof clubs run by reformed gangsta rappers who tell tall tales about their drug dealing exploits and then they all start mixing records and MC'ing on the mic, propagating the "gangsta" scene futher.

Bring back National Service lol 

Or pay for a guest appearance by Usain Bolt or Mohammed Farah:  with their very relevant message that the way to get out of the gangs route is to become a world class athlete and earn multi-millions through sponsorship deals.   Because everybody can do that.

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24 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

The whole nation has gone peak Cathy Newman!

Michael Wilshaw, ex chief of Ofsted, clearly points the finger of blame at absent fathers:

 

And the responses are in perfect Cathy Newman idiot mode: So you're blaming single mothers?
 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6190398/sir-michael-wilshaw-ofsted-accused-blaming-single-mums-gang-violence/

I bet the stats would corroborate his position entirely. Their continuing absence will confirm.

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Just now, Frank Hovis said:

Or pay for a guest appearance by Usain Bolt or Mohammed Farah:  with their very relevant message that the way to get out of the gangs route is to become a world class athlete and earn multi-millions through sponsorship deals.   Because everybody can do that.

Well going into training for it will keep em on the straight & narrow and some will make it or turn semi pro, better than wandering the streets.

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6 minutes ago, WorkingPoor said:

Well going into training for it will keep em on the straight & narrow and some will make it or turn semi pro, better than wandering the streets.

Do you get semi-pro athletes?

I don't see how it helps, rather than going into proper jobs they'll chase "the dream" and it's like footballers, vast numbers try for it, some get professional youth contracts, but very few get a professional contract.  Something like 95% don't make it so find themselves released aged 25 with no job and no qualifications.  I don't really see sports as any kind of route to success for the vast majority (I'm not just talking black children, I mean all children) as application and training will only work if you have a huge amount of raw talent in the first place and you either have that or you don't.  Very few do and most don't and so will be disappointed and woudl have been better advised to go into a job at which most most people can make a living.

They would be better off getting a talk from a plumber.

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42 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

The whole nation has gone peak Cathy Newman!

Michael Wilshaw, ex chief of Ofsted, clearly points the finger of blame at absent fathers:

 

And the responses are in perfect Cathy Newman idiot mode: So you're blaming single mothers?
 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6190398/sir-michael-wilshaw-ofsted-accused-blaming-single-mums-gang-violence/

Well, given that these offspring are out and about killing each other, yes, I would say that the parents (single or whatever) have done a piss poor job of raising them.  

This was baked in when we decided that everyone (well the gimmigrants and bennie class) were entitled with no responsibility.  

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3 minutes ago, One percent said:

Well, given that these offspring are out and about killing each other, yes, I would say that the parents (single or whatever) have done a piss poor job of raising them.  

This was baked in when we decided that everyone (well the gimmigrants and bennie class) were entitled with no responsibility.  

Yes, but he very clearly isn't blaming the single mothers.  Who are however the ones taking umbrage.

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30 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

Do you get semi-pro athletes?

I don't see how it helps, rather than going into proper jobs they'll chase "the dream" and it's like footballers, vast numbers try for it, some get professional youth contracts, but very few get a professional contract.  Something like 95% don't make it so find themselves released aged 25 with no job and no qualifications.  I don't really see sports as any kind of route to success for the vast majority (I'm not just talking black children, I mean all children) as application and training will only work if you have a huge amount of raw talent in the first place and you either have that or you don't.  Very few do and most don't and so will be disappointed and woudl have been better advised to go into a job at which most most people can make a living.

They would be better off getting a talk from a plumber.

Professional almost rans may potentially still pick up a full sports scholarship to a uni in the US. And they will have developed a strong work ethic.

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The point about getting in either the athlete or the plumber (and not the fucking reformed gangsta) is it is about instilling a sense of self respect, respect for others, purpose in life and so on. Building Character, as it used to be called. And what good male role models, good dads, do for their male offspring.

I was crap at school team sports and relentlessly bulied and belittled because of that, only coming into my own when I blossomed as an endurance runner/cyclist in my mid teens (which my school like most was utterly uninterested in), but I do see the point of school team sports, in that they help Build Character.

Edited by Melchett

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19 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

Professional almost rans may potentially still pick up a full sports scholarship to a uni in the US. And they will have developed a strong work ethic.

I would advise any parent with a daughter to get them in to golf. Seriously.

For a bloke, to get a good US scholarship, you will need a close to scratch handicap and some good tournament results. Which requires talent as well as hard graft.

For a girl, a handicap of 10 will get you there. Which is not very good really. And UK clubs will fall over themselves to support your progress as England Golf will throw money at them. Pretty much any healthy girl with some practice could land a US scholarship. 

 

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1 minute ago, Melchett said:

The point about getting in either the athlete or the plumber (and not the fucking reformed gangsta) is it is about instilling a sense of self respect, respect for others, purpose in life and so on. Building Character, as it used to be called. And what good male role models, good dads, do for their male offspring.

I was crap at school team sports and relentlessly bulied and belittled because of that, only coming into my own when I blossomed as an endurance runner/cyclist in my mid teens (which my school like most was utterly uninterested in), but I do see the point of school team sports, in that they help Build Character.

The big problem with school team sports, and I say as one who lost out, is that you can have nearly 12 months' difference between children in a year and when children are in junior school or in the early years fo senior school it really matters.  I was one of the youngest and hence smallest in my year so I didn't get into the teams where size and strength mattered.  The kids who got into those teams got the coaching, the away games, the encouragment and by the time I began to catch up physically at 14 or so I was 8 years' of coaching behind so had no chance of getting into the team.  The only team sports I got to play prior to being an adult were at weekends where it was strictly age rather than year.

 

Quote

Among the 25 most capped England football players, 11 were born between September and November, while only one, Frank Lampard, was born between June and August. In his case, having an England international for a father probably outweighed the disadvantage.

Yep, and my dad didn't play for England.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8227268.stm

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I had a great teacher in middle school who was cricket mad, everytime there was a nice sunny day we would sack the classwork off and he would take us all to the playing fields to play cricket for hours and sometimes we mixed it up with rounders too.

Fantastic it was, i still bump into him in the bookies occasionally. 

He was like some ordinary bloke who got a job as a teacher. 

Edited by WorkingPoor

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

Or pay for a guest appearance by Usain Bolt or Mohammed Farah:  with their very relevant message that the way to get out of the gangs route is to become a world class athlete and earn multi-millions through sponsorship deals.   Because everybody can do that.

Exactly, what they need as a role model is some slightly put-upon bloke who gets up at 6am every day to do an unremarkable job

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2 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

He should have checked with us first. He tried to blame absent fathers and no doubt he's got their backs up, and the mothers have taken umbrage because they've interpreted him as blaming them for not keeping their children under control.

Brilliant, not.

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I often wonder if football really is so competitive that the 95% that you quote as not making it really did give it everything they had and still don't make it, or whether most of them fall by the wayside because they can't or won't put in the effort? How many had got anywhere near the oft-quoted 10,000 hours of practice before they quit?

I found this article from 12 years ago:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4898392.stm

...which reckons that league 2 footballers made £50k a year on average. A very good wage then, still a pretty good wage now, and I daresay if anything it's likely to have gone up at more than the rate of inflation since then given the general trend in football wages (and transfer fees etc.). If I had a son (which I'm unlikely to) I really would be tempted to get him kicking a football around in the garden from an early age, and joined up to a club at whatever the youngest age they can get involved is, not because I'd want him to play for England, but because 10 years of professional football could set someone up for life if they didn't get sucked into the stereotypical 'footballer's lifestyle'...

Obviously if said son was physically feeble and really not cut out for it I'd get them to put the effort into something else like playing an instrument...

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

Do you get semi-pro athletes?

I don't see how it helps, rather than going into proper jobs they'll chase "the dream" and it's like footballers, vast numbers try for it, some get professional youth contracts, but very few get a professional contract.  Something like 95% 99.999% don't make it so find themselves released aged 25 with no job and no qualifications.  I don't really see sports as any kind of route to success for the vast majority (I'm not just talking black children, I mean all children) as application and training will only work if you have a huge amount of raw talent in the first place and you either have that or you don't.  Very few do and most don't and so will be disappointed and woudl have been better advised to go into a job at which most most people can make a living.

They would be better off getting a talk from a plumber.

 

3 minutes ago, Rave said:

I often wonder if football really is so competitive that the 95% that you quote as not making it really did give it everything they had and still don't make it, or whether most of them fall by the wayside because they can't or won't put in the effort? How many had got anywhere near the oft-quoted 10,000 hours of practice before they quit?

I found this article from 12 years ago:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4898392.stm

...which reckons that league 2 footballers made £50k a year on average. A very good wage then, still a pretty good wage now, and I daresay if anything it's likely to have gone up at more than the rate of inflation since then given the general trend in football wages (and transfer fees etc.). If I had a son (which I'm unlikely to) I really would be tempted to get him kicking a football around in the garden from an early age, and joined up to a club at whatever the youngest age they can get involved is, not because I'd want him to play for England, but because 10 years of professional football could set someone up for life if they didn't get sucked into the stereotypical 'footballer's lifestyle'...

Obviously if said son was physically feeble and really not cut out for it I'd get them to put the effort into something else like playing an instrument...

Err. They make ~50k for about 5 years. Then fuck all.

Footballers eanrings are over by 35. A lot sooner in most cases.

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19 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Err. They make ~50k for about 5 years. Then fuck all.

Footballers eanrings are over by 35. A lot sooner in most cases.

Yeah, and as far as I can tell most of them do a few hours training each day before hopping in their flash car and pissing their money away on tacky mansions and flaky women...

I just think it's an interesting question...how far could someone who isn't naturally gifted but is prepared to put 50 hours a week into training get? Christiano Ronaldo clearly is very naturally gifted, but if the stories are to believed, the reason he became a multiple Ballon D'Or winner is because when he first started out he would hit the gym for a couple of hours of weight training after training _every day_ while his team-mates put their contracted hours in and then pissed off. People often marvel at his ability to leap 2' in the air to head a ball down, but I could jump that high when I was lifting heavy weights 3 times a week, it's not actually a remarkable achievement. I of course couldn't manage to consistently kick a football into an empty goal from the edge of the penalty area, but I daresay if I'd spent every break time at school kicking a football around with the cool kids rather than sneaking off to read books in a corner I'd be a little better at it.

Even if you don't make it, the acquired discipline of being able to work hard at something for 40 hours a week ought to stand anyone in good stead to succeed in any other career. As a chronically lazy and undisciplined git who's made it to the age of nearly 39 without achieving anything of note, I wonder how things might have turned out had I ever given something a proper go. I guess if I'd put that effort in and still failed I might be bitter about it...

Edited by Rave

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13 minutes ago, Rave said:

I often wonder if football really is so competitive that the 95% that you quote as not making it really did give it everything they had and still don't make it, or whether most of them fall by the wayside because they can't or won't put in the effort? How many had got anywhere near the oft-quoted 10,000 hours of practice before they quit?

I found this article from 12 years ago:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4898392.stm

...which reckons that league 2 footballers made £50k a year on average. A very good wage then, still a pretty good wage now, and I daresay if anything it's likely to have gone up at more than the rate of inflation since then given the general trend in football wages (and transfer fees etc.). If I had a son (which I'm unlikely to) I really would be tempted to get him kicking a football around in the garden from an early age, and joined up to a club at whatever the youngest age they can get involved is, not because I'd want him to play for England, but because 10 years of professional football could set someone up for life if they didn't get sucked into the stereotypical 'footballer's lifestyle'...

Obviously if said son was physically feeble and really not cut out for it I'd get them to put the effort into something else like playing an instrument...

Average salaries 2017:

Championship: 324k

L1: 70k

L2: 40k

But these are average salaries and clubs pay their star players far more than the average squad player.  For most players these would be far lower and my guesses based on my club's wage structure is:

Squad Player

Championship   80k

League 1             40k

League 2             25k

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-wages-of-player-in-lower-division-football-league-in-England

Add in the shortness of the career and you are going to come out of the game needed a job fairly rapidly.

Those who make a really decent living out of it (£200k a year or more) are going to be the premiership squads 22 x 30, the best in the championship: 3 x 30 and maybe ten stars in L1.

So 760 players in total IME.  Knock out the foreign players from that and you are probbaly down to 300 British players making a very good living out of the game.

They will range in age from say 20 -30 so for each year group you will have 30 players nationwide making it to this top salary level.

 

When you start breaking it down the vast majority of very good footballers are just not going to make a decent living out of it.

 

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33 minutes ago, WorkingPoor said:

I had a great teacher in middle school who was cricket mad, everytime there was a nice sunny day we would sack the classwork off and he would take us all to the playing fields to play cricket for hours and sometimes we mixed it up with rounders too.

Fantastic it was, i still bump into him in the bookies occasionally. 

He was like some ordinary bloke who got a job as a teacher. 

For the benefit of us plebs what exactly is a "middle school" ?.

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After WW2 there were lots of single mothers due to the deaths as well as lots of single mothers due to serving in the armed forces which were much larger.  I'm not saying the behaviour of some of those children was always perfect because it wouldn't be but on average and in total it would be an order of magnitude better than what's happening now.  Parenting makes a difference but I think the blame lies with all the changes to society that parents have little or no control over.  I would suggest that the changes have been gradual over many decades but the effects have been massive and I think they've been escalating over recent years and decades.

I also think that the rapidly increasing population doesn't help matters - but you'll never hear that mentioned by the great and the good.

I think the majority of the blame goes to those in the positions of power who helped to make those changes. 

Edited by twocents

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