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One percent

Definition of insanity:doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result

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So, how often do the have to renationalise before they realise that trains in private hands is ideology trumping expediency?  In national hands, the east coast line makes money, private, it loses money and the private company messes it up

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/east-coast-rail-line-to-be-temporarily-renationalised-virgin-stagecoach

 

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1 minute ago, One percent said:

So, how often do the have to renationalise before they realise that trains in private hands is ideology trumping expediency?  In national hands, the east coast line makes money, private, it loses money and the private company messes it up

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/east-coast-rail-line-to-be-temporarily-renationalised-virgin-stagecoach

 

What on earth makes you think a good outcome for the public and the public purse is the aim? 

 

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Andy McDonald MP: Shadow Transport Secretary speaking in Parliament today.

"We've had reform, reform, and reform. We've had bailout after bailout. Rail companies win, passengers and taxpayers lose.

There's a definition of insanity.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the same results. "

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The ideology is flawed simply because you cannot create any genuine market for a train service running on the same tracks using the same infrastructure.

Repeat for phone lines, gas, electricity, water and so on.

You simply transfer a state monopoly to a private one.

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42 minutes ago, DTMark said:

The ideology is flawed simply because you cannot create any genuine market for a train service running on the same tracks using the same infrastructure.

Repeat for phone lines, gas, electricity, water and so on.

You simply transfer a state monopoly to a private one.

To a large extent that is true, and yet trains are fuckloads better now than they were back in the British Rail days. How much is due to: increased demand, societal changes, technological improvements? I don’t know, but let’s not pretend there was anything other than an utterly dogshit service “back in the day”.

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39 minutes ago, DTMark said:

The ideology is flawed simply because you cannot create any genuine market for a train service running on the same tracks using the same infrastructure.

Repeat for phone lines, gas, electricity, water and so on.

You simply transfer a state monopoly to a private one.

The choice in the UK seems to be between spending loads of tax revenues employing unsackable dossers and providing an appalling service(some people will remember British Rail), or allowing City-based political donors to indirectly siphon off loads of tax revenues to provide a slightly less appalling but horribly expensive service. No party is proposing anything different at the moment as far as I can see.

 

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1 minute ago, Hail the Tripod said:

To a large extent that is true, and yet trains are fuckloads better now than they were back in the British Rail days. How much is due to: increased demand, societal changes, technological improvements? I don’t know, but let’s not pretend there was anything other than an utterly dogshit service “back in the day”.

It was slightly better pre beeching. 

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1 minute ago, Hail the Tripod said:

To a large extent that is true, and yet trains are fuckloads better now than they were back in the British Rail days. How much is due to: increased demand, societal changes, technological improvements? I don’t know, but let’s not pretend there was anything other than an utterly dogshit service “back in the day”.

Are they really, though?

They're monstrously expensive, always full, bedevilled with problems, and replaced by buses most weekends.

I do vaguely remember the British Rail trains being filthy but beyond that I can't remember much else about them.

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1 minute ago, DTMark said:

Are they really, though?

They're monstrously expensive, always full, bedevilled with problems, and replaced by buses most weekends.

I do vaguely remember the British Rail trains being filthy but beyond that I can't remember much else about them.

The only train I ever take is Manchester to London and it's a gazillion times better than in BR times. Genuinely not even close; it's like comparing chalk and very much better chalk.

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7 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

The choice in the UK seems to be between spending loads of tax revenues employing unsackable dossers and providing an appalling service(some people will remember British Rail), or allowing City-based political donors to indirectly siphon off loads of tax revenues to provide a slightly less appalling but horribly expensive service. No party is proposing anything different at the moment as far as I can see.

 

About sums it up for me.

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Just now, DTMark said:

Are they really, though?

They're monstrously expensive, always full, bedevilled with problems, and replaced by buses most weekends.

I do vaguely remember the British Rail trains being filthy but beyond that I can't remember much else about them.

They were late all the time, slow, unreliable, beset by strikes and filthy, it was like being in a 1950s/60s film but with less polite people. Nothing edible or drinkable. Rude and often bizarre staff too, BR employed all the people no-one else would.

I remember the feeling of faint awe when I first took a French TGV.

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I suppose the question is how elastic is the off peak demand?

I get that many have to use the rush hour service, and they are a captive audience.

I need to go, off peak, to Southampton every week or two. It is £75 for three of us. So we normally drive. If we do take the train it is deserted. 

It is a tricky problem.

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You can get cheap tickets if you book early enough. I used to get a first class ticket from Glasgow to Aberdeen for £10..... That's about a three hour journey.

However I agree buying a ticket on the day you travel is expensive.

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13 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

They were late all the time, slow, unreliable, beset by strikes and filthy, it was like being in a 1950s/60s film but with less polite people. Nothing edible or drinkable. Rude and often bizarre staff too, BR employed all the people no-one else would.

I remember the feeling of faint awe when I first took a French TGV.

Remember the British rail strap line?  “We’re getting there”

and the wags added “but we don’t say when”

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According to the So-Called BBC this afternoon this is the third time it's happened so I expect there's a lot of money to be made by the cronies in the rinse and repeat process.

To be fair BR did an excellent silver service breakfast on some lines - before the panini, sub and wrap economy gained momentum.

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1 minute ago, twocents said:

According to the So-Called BBC this afternoon this is the third time it's happened so I expect there's a lot of money to be made by the cronies in the rinse and repeat process.

To be fair BR did an excellent silver service breakfast on some lines - before the panini, sub and wrap economy gained momentum.

The crazy thing is that whenever they renationalised it, it turned a profit 

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How much was the franchise fee paid for the privilege of running the service. Without knowing that how can the profitability of the service be estimated. I'd be interested  in seeing the accounts for the franchise rather than the political opinions for privatisation or nationalisation.

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1 minute ago, One percent said:

The crazy thing is that whenever they renationalised it, it turned a profit 

Yes that's what they were saying as well.  Yet the private companies couldn't.

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Just now, twocents said:

Yes that's what they were saying as well.  Yet the private companies couldn't.

I wonder why. 9_9

88CC4559-00BD-4049-A92B-8B386249EED7.jpeg

3 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

Wonder if Jimmy offered special services on some lines?

 

 

Did they run directly into morgues then?

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33 minutes ago, Great Guy said:

You can get cheap tickets if you book early enough. I used to get a first class ticket from Glasgow to Aberdeen for £10..... That's about a three hour journey.

However I agree buying a ticket on the day you travel is expensive.

I am talking about booking in advance. It is just too bloody expensive.

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I find it hard to believe that a company can't make money running trains between Edinburgh and London. How much more of a captive market do you need?

I wonder what the business model is? To put it into perspective I'm flying to SF and back for £1400. The walk on price for Edinburgh to LKX has to be ITRO £400, I bet you don't get much change out of £250 for booking well in advance. 

How does that even remotely stack? Where does all the money go?

 

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47 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

I find it hard to believe that a company can't make money running trains between Edinburgh and London. How much more of a captive market do you need?

I wonder what the business model is? To put it into perspective I'm flying to SF and back for £1400. The walk on price for Edinburgh to LKX has to be ITRO £400, I bet you don't get much change out of £250 for booking well in advance. 

How does that even remotely stack? Where does all the money go?

 

my top tip of the day is borrow a disability rail card,the last time i did this 4 years ago even i was embarresed about how cheap it was off peak.cost around 28 quid for 2 of us return the train was empty has well.

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40 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

I find it hard to believe that a company can't make money running trains between Edinburgh and London. How much more of a captive market do you need?

I wonder what the business model is? To put it into perspective I'm flying to SF and back for £1400. The walk on price for Edinburgh to LKX has to be ITRO £400, I bet you don't get much change out of £250 for booking well in advance. 

How does that even remotely stack? Where does all the money go?

 

At a wild guess its because there are no tracks or signals in the sky. There also are no trees and hedgerows to maintain at 35000 feet. Mostly unlikely to be any landslides / subsidence issues to deal with in the clouds. There are also slightly more stations than airports.

I could go on but I think you get the picture.

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