Jump to content
DOSBODS
  • Welcome to DOSBODS

     

    DOSBODS is free of any advertising.

    Ads are annoying, and - increasingly - advertising companies limit free speech online. DOSBODS Forums are completely free to use. Please create a free account to be able to access all the features of the DOSBODS community. It only takes 20 seconds!

     

IGNORED

Credit deflation and the reflation cycle to come.


DurhamBorn

Recommended Posts

Alifelessbinary
1 hour ago, MrXxx said:

The answer?...as some have posted on here, the answer is finding the `sweet spot` where your savings/finances are tax efficient (and sufficient), and your pension provision (both private and state) sum to just under your personal tax allowance...this way you can have a modest lifestyle in the knowledge that whoever is milking the system is not doing it at your expense and whatever the current government is wasting taxes on is not coming out of your pocket.

Unfortunately this approach leads to an uncaring society, but some would say we are at that stage already, so not to take such an approach means your generosity gets abused...at least taking an approach you can always choose to give to you favourite charity.

I agree with this statement, my only concern that if the NHS crumbles under the weight of people abusing the system you’re screwed. 

We live in very unsettled times and while I still earn a good wage I’m taking all steps to diversify my investments.

While removing ISA tax benefits would likely cause a middle class revolt, I can see the yearly deposit limit slowly shrinking until they disappear. However frustrating it is watching successive governments supporting financial recklessness, I refuse to join the gravy train as otherwise you pass all control to the government who don’t give a shit.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 11.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply
2 hours ago, Agent ZigZag said:

Just start buying the silver now. Little and often. At £14 approx a coin inc VAt from the likes of Chard (Blackpool) or Coininvest both of which i use will put you in a great position outside the system and tax free if UK coinage. Im not worried by a mad max situation as I consider unlikeley to happen. It is governments that are the problem and the hunt for our money through taxes. Council taxes is my real worry and my financial planning is based around the illusion to show the system that I have no savings.

They could in which case I would sell up and Fuck off out of here. The game would be really up by then

How do you feel about the Lunar silver coins from Chards ZigZag?.Do you see them being as easy to sell in the future as Britannia's?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MrXxx said:

The answer?...as some have posted on here, the answer is finding the `sweet spot` where your savings/finances are tax efficient (and sufficient), and your pension provision (both private and state) sum to just under your personal tax allowance...this way you can have a modest lifestyle in the knowledge that whoever is milking the system is not doing it at your expense and whatever the current government is wasting taxes on is not coming out of your pocket.

Unfortunately this approach leads to an uncaring society, but some would say we are at that stage already, so not to take such an approach means your generosity gets abused...at least taking an approach you can always choose to give to you favourite charity.

Thats exactly my thoughts on it 100% and it is what i have/am planning for.House 100% paid for,pensions/income always just below tax allowance,ISAs for the rest.I also try to buy everything apart from clothes 2nd hand so to avoid VAT etc.I agree its shocking that we have reached this point,but we have.Tax credits,foreign aid and housing benefit mostly convinced me no thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 22/09/2018 at 11:25, Yellow_Reduced_Sticker said:

NO one here has seen/been through a REAL recession unless they were at working age during 1990 to 1993 ...near on thirty yeras ago!

The last few recessions in the UK have been tea-parties in comparison!

As DB says, when this BIG one HITS, people are going to be SHOCKED to the core!:o

I remember coming out of uni in 92.there were no jobs and those there were went to the best candidates.I struggled.As did loads of other 21 year olds at the time.Things didn't really pick up until the late 90's in Leicester and take away the govt,and it's been downhill since the 80's recession.

Now with so many more graduates with crap degrees,life is about to get a whole lot harder.

 

On 22/09/2018 at 13:12, sleepwello'nights said:

What I vividly remember was the number of employees around the 50 year old mark being made redundant. It really struck me that these people, often in senior positions, had worked really hard to get where they were and then were left high and dry. From then on I realised my primary responsibility was to myself and despite working conscientiously I wouldn't be reliant on an employer. Their priorities were different to their employees, understandably, but it meant that in the final analysis the organisations survival outweighed their loyalty to their employees.  

 

 

This is the nub of the issue from what I can see of my generational cohort.So many levering up to the gills at t shetart of their 40's for the McMansion, the 5 bed in the Shires or the BTL empire that's underpinned by the equity in their own family home unknowingly.

Lot of misery to come.Fort those witha skil, no real preoblem.For those with a management job and little they can charge a day rate for.....?

 

On 22/09/2018 at 17:35, null; said:

 

I'm starting to think that from around April next year things will get started and thats when the pressure will start on BOE and the government to take action. The trigger being the one fundamental thing that seems to be changing significantly - energy costs. No crystal ball and I'm no expert so just my guesses, but I'll give my reasons:

- Energy prices are high (Gas and Oil), unless they drop considerably, this will be a big inflationary pressure that will be feeding through the system and in full force

- A big unknown - a cold prolonged winter will put pressure on energy costs and also reduce consumers spare cash - a mild warm winter having the opposite effect

- Weak pound and strong dollar - extra downward pressure on the pound from Brexit and the dollar getting boosted by Trumps policies

- BOE forced to make a rate rise due to rising inflation

- Consumers maxed out and unwilling/unable to take further credit

- Businesses holding back investment until Brexit outcome known

- Continued stagnant wages, especially for the lower paid

 

I think the big cahuna will be next year for a raft of reasons.

ref Energy prices .People will eat first, heat second,pay the shelter bill third.

Hence why I ahve zero longs in the banking sector.

 

On 23/09/2018 at 11:31, afly said:

This seems to be a big part of the problem. Just because you earn 100k doesn't mean you have to have a 450k mortgage and run the balance down to 0 every month. Recognise it as good times and trouser a good portion fgs. People in their 40/50's really should know better, it leaves them in such a vulnerable position. We seem to have a massive problem with planning and investing for the future at all levels in this country.

As per previous posts.I'm in my forties,Mrs P is quite a bit younger but she's from SA and grew up being well aware of real poverty and was a saver before i met her.I'm genuinely amazed at some of the supposedly astute people I know who are 20% down in house prices away from seeing their family home and their retirements under threat.

They've gone all in on one asset class

On 23/09/2018 at 13:08, Talking Monkey said:

With no final salary pensions for a lot of 30-45 year olds there is a lot of pain ahead, people just save into a contributions based pension and assume it equates to the kind of pension their parents received. Some of these people have no idea what their retirement is going to be like. Also a lot of folk who are hitting peak earnings in their late 30s early 40s think they will be earning this money for the next 20 odd years, they've no idea that they'll be very likely on the scrap heap round about 50

Absolutely.I think the false sense of security has been created by a lack of recessions, and people thinking that the wage growth will continue in perpetuity.
At the point of maximum confidence they leverage up into the wage growth inflecetion point circa age 50,....

 

 

On 23/09/2018 at 17:27, stokiescum said:

disagree,the feral will have the advantage they are aready trained to survive on not much and they aready have their packs if things go south.the middle class dont the rich will flee.

I agree Stokie.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Alifelessbinary said:

I agree with this statement, my only concern that if the NHS crumbles under the weight of people abusing the system you’re screwed. 

We live in very unsettled times and while I still earn a good wage I’m taking all steps to diversify my investments.

While removing ISA tax benefits would likely cause a middle class revolt, I can see the yearly deposit limit slowly shrinking until they disappear. However frustrating it is watching successive governments supporting financial recklessness, I refuse to join the gravy train as otherwise you pass all control to the government who don’t give a shit.

 

The usual method would be to introduce a new thing, a TFSA say (tax-free-saving-account) that has slightly different characteristics to an ISA.  People would be allowed to leave their ISA, but after a couple of years they'd change the system somehow.

I imagine that at some point they'll make some significant encouragement to save in gilts (something like - market crash, then introduce system of 'safe investment' to protect the retail punter from evil shares).  SIPP could be similar -- mandated %ages for gilts vs other.  If they did that sort of thing the yearly limit would only go up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

how many of us have safe jobs and how much of the uk could actualy survive on minimimum wage whilst servecing credid cards and 150k plus morgages and pcp cars on the drive,its going to be epic for many.anyone can skip a holiday to save cash and go aldi for food,even coffes on the go can be forgone to save cash but even things like sky and phone contracts are often 18-24 months long now.never mind loans etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

On 23/09/2018 at 23:18, dgul said:

The slow introduction of benefits for everyone has killed this, and other, countries.  It has distorted incentives, changed the industrial dynamic, driven (im)migration and produced a subclass of feckless.  I'd love to set up a cult, where the young are told of this long term deception and go on 'benefits strike' -- refusing to do things that they're driven to do only because of the benefits culture.  Don't buy houses using government incentives, don't work for low wages propped up by tax credits, don't take higher education based on a strange 'not a benefit, promise' student loan.  But they won't do such a thing, as they're all more brainwashed than everyone else -- albeit that everyone has a chance to red-pill as soon as they're far enough away from the education system.

The way that successive governments have each doubled down on welfare-like systems to the extent that the 'honest man' has no choice but to accept some government cash fills me with horror.  Horror with the way that an individual's labour has been devalued in this way; horror in the way that big government has the ability now to manipulate entire populations with a simple 'tax credit' decision.

And horror with the realisation that there is now no way to get rid of this system without extraordinary pain for everyone*.

[* and that's everyone.  eg, remove tax credits now and crime will go through the roof]

Distortions to risk pricing have occurred across society.Benefits/QE/ZIRP.Plus ca change.

11 hours ago, DurhamBorn said:

Hard to say,but interesting to see if this kicks off a merger frenzy in the industry or not.See if there is another over the next few months.

I think Barrick are on the short end of this.Have to say the logic isn't working for me.They coud have bought Sibanye/Anglogold/Goldfields .

Rand goldmis high in it's chart imho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Alifelessbinary said:

I agree with this statement, my only concern that if the NHS crumbles under the weight of people abusing the system you’re screwed. 

 

 

NHS and social care services will be vastly different to what they are now in twenty years.Possibly ten.Posibly five.

System is heading for a huge crisis imho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, DurhamBorn said:

How do you feel about the Lunar silver coins from Chards ZigZag?.Do you see them being as easy to sell in the future as Britannia's?

For me gold is gold and silver is silver. I just buy the cheapest. I have been buying for about 15 years little and often and now have a rather larger war chest. If I was using my capital to buy a house then I would have been acquiring Sovs to avoid CGT.

My accountant told me early on the only time to get married is for tax purposes and if necessary get divorced. His secretary looked at him in horror. His advise is sound. If you trust your partner and work as a team then you should use your taxable allowance CGT and gift your future wife the other half using up her taxable allowance giving you a nice £23,000 approx. Without having to dip into ISAs or SIPPS. Austrian Philharmonics were my first ever purchase and at the time were the cheapest. They are a lovely coin, and like you,gave a few as Christmas presents. It is amazing how people react to holding a physical silver coin. At £14 a pop at coininvest for sovs Im looking very closely at getting some more physical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Talking Monkey
10 hours ago, Majorpain said:

What gold and silver?  :ph34r:

I agree pensions are toast, all that debt has a vast chunk of pension assets secured against it.  If the debt gets defaulted on....

Is that company pensions or SIPPs as well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, sancho panza said:

I remember coming out of uni in 92.there were no jobs and those there were went to the best candidates.I struggled.As did loads of other 21 year olds at the time.Things didn't really pick up until the late 90's in Leicester and take away the govt,and it's been downhill since the 80's recession.

Now with so many more graduates with crap degrees,life is about to get a whole lot harder.

This is the nub of the issue from what I can see of my generational cohort.So many levering up to the gills at t shetart of their 40's for the McMansion, the 5 bed in the Shires or the BTL empire that's underpinned by the equity in their own family home unknowingly.

Lot of misery to come.Fort those witha skil, no real preoblem.For those with a management job and little they can charge a day rate for.....?

I think the big cahuna will be next year for a raft of reasons.

ref Energy prices .People will eat first, heat second,pay the shelter bill third.

Hence why I ahve zero longs in the banking sector.

As per previous posts.I'm in my forties,Mrs P is quite a bit younger but she's from SA and grew up being well aware of real poverty and was a saver before i met her.I'm genuinely amazed at some of the supposedly astute people I know who are 20% down in house prices away from seeing their family home and their retirements under threat.

They've gone all in on one asset class

Absolutely.I think the false sense of security has been created by a lack of recessions, and people thinking that the wage growth will continue in perpetuity.
At the point of maximum confidence they leverage up into the wage growth inflecetion point circa age 50,....

This. What I have learnt over the years, is it’s not just (or what’s considered as) the lesser educated that hasn’t planned for the future, but ‘seemingly’ intelligent people also.

I was advising the senior technical director, (his pay band is one down from the top) the other day on his pension options. He is late 30’s (my age), on round about double my salary, yet had no clue that his pension had changed to Alpha (linked to state pension age) in 2015. 

People are oblivious, because the government and media have indoctrinated them to be. Whether it be the whole benefit sector relying on tax credits and ADHD children’s DLA down the bottom end, or BTL - bricks and mortar can only go up - over leveraged idiots on the other. People glaze over when told anything in regards to financial sense over a long term period rather than the here and now.

We were recently at a friends house party, and some friends there were asking my opinion on extending their mortgage for a loft conversion on the house. The guy earns over £100k a year on a marketing job and already has £750k on mortgage debt. I explained in a normal interest rate environment over the life of a mortgage, could they afford the monthly repayments? The answer was no, but they did it anyway.

When the tap stops, and reality hits I think things could turn very nasty quickly in this country. I certainly wouldn’t be here where I am in south London. You only have to look back a few years to the riots (and I was smack bang in the epicentre dealing with it at both work and home).

Neighborhood communities are long gone around here, as was said before it’s dog eat dog, everyone out for themselves. Prehaps that was the plan by TPTB all along, the divided are easier to control.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Agent ZigZag said:

For me gold is gold and silver is silver. I just buy the cheapest. I have been buying for about 15 years little and often and now have a rather larger war chest. If I was using my capital to buy a house then I would have been acquiring Sovs to avoid CGT.

My accountant told me early on the only time to get married is for tax purposes and if necessary get divorced. His secretary looked at him in horror. His advise is sound. If you trust your partner and work as a team then you should use your taxable allowance CGT and gift your future wife the other half using up her taxable allowance giving you a nice £23,000 approx. Without having to dip into ISAs or SIPPS. Austrian Philharmonics were my first ever purchase and at the time were the cheapest. They are a lovely coin, and like you,gave a few as Christmas presents. It is amazing how people react to holding a physical silver coin. At £14 a pop at coininvest for sovs Im looking very closely at getting some more physical.

Looking like it’s a good time for me to invest in another tranche of silver Britannias. I’ve used Silver To Go back in 2016 at the last low. Couldn’t fault the service from the company.

That lot will be for my daughter at whatever state the economy will be in a that point when she gets older.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, DurhamBorn said:

Iv been thinking the same lately for myself and my partner.Im thinking of going back to work for a coupe of years and iv been running lots of numbers around my SIPP/personal allowance etc.I have £11k a year from 67 in pensions so only have £1k a year to play with.The other options of course are the years from 57 (or maybe 55 if they havent moved the age) to 67 to draw down £12k a year + 25% tax free cash.I have plenty of room there for SIPP money.So my plan is if i go back to work to put everything down to £12k in my SIPP and any profit my small business makes into the SIPP.My ISA will simply be left alone to compound up with dividends re-invested.

My no1 priority is to never have more than the tax allowance from income/pensions and the uplift can come from income from my ISA.I simply cant bare to think of income tax being stolen from me to hand to BTL landlords in HB and tax credit junkies.

Its a shame you coudnt still access your pension at 50 and the worry is they keep moving the goalposts.I think the likely moves from government will be to limit 40% tax relief,limit ISA allowances to £1 million max and introduce NI onto income above £12k a year over state retirement age.

 

DB, you may want to take a look at the recent changes in making tax free pension contributions (MPAA=money purchase annual allowance).

If my reading of these are correct the maximum you can put into a DC pension/SIPP per annum is £4k NOT the £40k that is the AA. If you go over this it is taxed on the way out when you retire and draw...OK I hear people saying, it's the tax I would have paid on the way in anyway BUT its not the same, as you would also pay tax on the accumulated funds/profits!

Hopefully I have this wrong and one of the DOSBODS tax experts will correct me, but having read it over a number of times I come to the same conclusion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sideysid said:

 

We were recently at a friends house party, and some friends there were asking my opinion on extending their mortgage for a loft conversion on the house. The guy earns over £100k a year on a marketing job and already has £750k on mortgage debt. I explained in a normal interest rate environment over the life of a mortgage, could they afford the monthly repayments? The answer was no, but they did it anyway.

 

Note the pro-cyclical job.  Something I find amazing is that it is always the people with jobs that move with the economy that think that they're actually great and take whopping risks, while the people with the counter cyclical jobs don't take risks they could take.

[It is perhaps obvious -- risk attitude baked into the type of job that one wants.  But, nevertheless, the risk is multiplied.]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, dgul said:

Note the pro-cyclical job.  Something I find amazing is that it is always the people with jobs that move with the economy that think that they're actually great and take whopping risks, while the people with the counter cyclical jobs don't take risks they could take.

[It is perhaps obvious -- risk attitude baked into the type of job that one wants.  But, nevertheless, the risk is multiplied.]

Obviously the like minded on here are on the same page. The marketing job he’s now lost (a lot got the axe apparently) since, and he’s struggling to find a similar paid one already. I regard those jobs as the canary in the coal mine, and it shows we are close to the chickens coming home to roost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MrXxx said:

DB, you may want to take a look at the recent changes in making tax free pension contributions (MPAA=money purchase annual allowance).

If my reading of these are correct the maximum you can put into a DC pension/SIPP per annum is £4k NOT the £40k that is the AA. If you go over this it is taxed on the way out when you retire and draw...OK I hear people saying, it's the tax I would have paid on the way in anyway BUT its not the same, as you would also pay tax on the accumulated funds/profits!

Hopefully I have this wrong and one of the DOSBODS tax experts will correct me, but having read it over a number of times I come to the same conclusion.

I took a pension in 2015 under the new rules as a small lump sum payment. As soon as you access any pension you are restricted to the MPAA, which that year was £10,000 but dropped to £4000 a year later:(

Further more if you are a Non Taxpayer a £2880 limit is applied for tax relief, see https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/tax-relief-on-pension-contributions

As DB says you need to be looking at Draw-down to minimize tax, and topping up using ISA's. Pensions have become very restrictive for you at this point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yellow_Reduced_Sticker
11 hours ago, DurhamBorn said:

Thats exactly my thoughts on it 100% and it is what i have/am planning for.House 100% paid for,pensions/income always just below tax allowance,ISAs for the rest.I also try to buy everything apart from clothes 2nd hand so to avoid VAT etc.I agree its shocking that we have reached this point,but we have.Tax credits,foreign aid and housing benefit mostly convinced me no thank you.

 
I say I say, I say, I say...:D
 
WHY won't YOU buy second-hand cloths DB?
 
Are ya worried someone may have snuffed it those second-hand cloths?!:o
 
You can always wash them using my SECRET ...(sodium percarbonate oxygen bleach)
 
You want to check out boot-sales you can clean up ...well I do at the boot-sale I go to, but hands-up the real reason i go there is to check-out the FOXY skimpily clad polish girls, some are just absolute babes, yes i'll admit I'm a bit of an old perv lolxD :Old:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Talking Monkey said:

Is that company pensions or SIPPs as well

Company pensions (at least in my case) buy a lot of Bonds for safe guaranteed (!) revenue out into the future.  Problem is the govt has promised too many too much and is likely to need to print to pay all those things its promised people, especially in a recession.  Fixed income bonds will be stuffed in that scenario if inflation kicks off!

SIPPS/ISA's are more dependant on what you are invested in, I'm of the opinion that I don't need to pay someone else to lose my money!  DYOR and all that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gordie Lastchance

I've mentioned before about buying silver coins twice this year. Like others on here, I've given them as presents and can confirm they certainly have the wow factor with recipients.

I'm keen to get some more, so have been looking at all the varieties available. While digging into the Canadian Silver Maple Leaf, I found some info I thought I'd share. Apologies if it's already been raised, but repetition isn't a bad thing.

The Silver Maples have "four-nines" purity. Also, its face value is something to consider.

It's explained by some blurb on SilverGoldBull: "At 5 Canadian dollars, the official legal tender face value of this 1 oz coin is the highest among silver bullion coins. The coin's purity is guaranteed at 9999 pure silver, also among the highest purities which have a standard of 999."

There's been recent discussion on this thread about tarnishing. I don't know if the following info from JM Bullion will help tackle this, but here it is anyway: "As of 2018, Silver Maple Leaf Coins feature the Royal Canadian Mint’s new MINTSHIELD Technology. The goal of MINTSHIELD is to prevent “white spots” on silver bullion coinage. The application is invisible to the eye and protects the intrinsic value present in the beautiful finish of all Silver Maple Leaf bullion coins."

JM Bullion says of the 2018 coin: "The background on both sides includes radial lines for security against counterfeiting. The reverse also has a micro-laser engraved maple leaf privy that features 18 at the center of the privy, and it is only visible under magnification."

However, I thought I'd add this next paragraph from JM Bullion: "All 1 oz Maple Leaf coins from the Royal Canadian Mint now also feature Bullion DNA. This additional form of security takes that micro-engraving and encodes, scans, and records it at the mint for future authentication."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I came over for this Thread from TOS, I obviously haven't posted much and do not know the forum rules regarding mentioning other forums. But in terms of Silver/Gold options there is a forum I have used (UK) where they do group buys from The European Mint (Estonia) and Gold.silver.be  (Belgium). Plenty of Youtube vids regarding these group buys. I believe the next group order begins end of Oct and last for 4 weekends.

I have only been involved with 1 order, but it was far cheaper than buying in the UK, along with a wide choice of UK coins (lunar, queens beast etc) as well as worldwide coins. Worked well for me.

For Gold, Atkinsons and Hatton Garden Metals are normally competitive.

I have most of my silver in Bullion Vault, but do also hold over 100oz of Silver at home along with a few oz of gold.

Cheers DK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Alifelessbinary said:

Iremoving ISA tax benefits would likely cause a middle class revolt

I cannot envision the current middle class truly revolting agains anything. At best, we can write a bad letter to a shitty newspaper and maybe rant in Guardian's comments section.

If there's any hope, it's with the youth. Every time I discuss with my 9yo on the world in general, and on the economy and religion in particular, she's always asking "why isn't there a French Revolution already" and is full of piss and vinegar about which leaders she would talk to and what exactly she would tell them. That generation will have to fix the world for themselves cause we sure as hell ain't gonna do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, kibuc said:

I cannot envision the current middle class truly revolting agains anything. At best, we can write a bad letter to a shitty newspaper and maybe rant in Guardian's comments section.

Because life is good, there is no shortage of anything, the great unwashed are off their tits on booze and drugs and no-one can see the good times coming to an end.

If everyone went 3 meals without anything to eat however...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DonkeyKong said:

I came over for this Thread from TOS, I obviously haven't posted much and do not know the forum rules regarding mentioning other forums. But in terms of Silver/Gold options there is a forum I have used (UK) where they do group buys from The European Mint (Estonia) and Gold.silver.be  (Belgium). Plenty of Youtube vids regarding these group buys. I believe the next group order begins end of Oct and last for 4 weekends.

I have only been involved with 1 order, but it was far cheaper than buying in the UK, along with a wide choice of UK coins (lunar, queens beast etc) as well as worldwide coins. Worked well for me.

For Gold, Atkinsons and Hatton Garden Metals are normally competitive.

I have most of my silver in Bullion Vault, but do also hold over 100oz of Silver at home along with a few oz of gold.

Cheers DK

Thanks for the info DK,hope you keep checking the thread out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...