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Credit deflation and the reflation cycle to come.


DurhamBorn

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4 hours ago, kibuc said:

@A_P when looking at gold in your table, it's also worth taking a peek at SP 500. For me it's clear that in relative terms gold is near the bottom.

Capture.PNG

May not be the bottom but 'cheap' when compared to the broader market. From https://thefelderreport.com/2018/02/08/gold-fireworks-on-the-horizon/ (article a year old)

Quote

Looking back to that 2001 low in gold it’s clear that, at the time, it was very cheap relative to the broad stock market. Today, you could argue it’s now even cheaper. Over the past 35 years or so, gold and the S&P 500 have essentially traded around parity. Should they see some sort of mean reversion now there are $1,300 points to be made up one way or the other.

qZphW48Z.png

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Talking Monkey
5 hours ago, Majorpain said:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-02-20/tesla-general-counsel-quits-after-just-two-months

Tesla saga rumbles on. Musk desperately needs to ramp the share price up above the convertible warrants price but is going through attorneys at an alarming rate as a consequence. 

Interesting as IMO they are likely to be one of the first casualties of a deflation, expensive luxury product and lots of debt to refinance.

He hasn't got long I think they convert in March, I follow the zerohedge articles, Musk seems like one epic dodgy guy

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Hopefully people are up big amounts now in most of the miners.I took some money off the table in a few today and top sliced some,i had some big profits among my rubber band stocks and silvers.Looks like a rounded bottom from 2013 keeps finding resistance around $1360/1370.Given the over bought area we are in that is going to prove a crucial point.There is no negative divergence though on any of my indicators so we might get through to the $1400 mark this time.My cycles still say gold and the miners might fall into May then start to trend hard.If i put my road map over the cycles then it ignores now to May and says the uptrend may already be in place.I still see $1500 as the first stage in this cycle and the GDX likely to see the $35+ area in the next 18 months.

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https://seekingalpha.com/article/4242572-bhp-billiton-providing-clue-investors

Very good article here IMO. So much so that I am very tempted to sign up to their newsletter even though it is at the more expensive end of the scale for a small retail investor like myself.

In any event I'm waiting for a definitive resolution to the S&P 2800 question before I take my next step.

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17 minutes ago, billfunk said:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4242572-bhp-billiton-providing-clue-investors

Very good article here IMO. So much so that I am very tempted to sign up to their newsletter even though it is at the more expensive end of the scale for a small retail investor like myself.

In any event I'm waiting for a definitive resolution to the S&P 2800 question before I take my next step.

Seems really good .I agree with them on most of what they are saying.They say value stocks,i simply call them inflation loving assets,but its very similar.I like their work on free cash flow etc.They key question is does the debt deflation drag them down one last time or not?.Its why i have ladders in place for all the stocks i want,but also why i have already been buying,and some have already moved 25% above the bottom ladder buys .I really like the way they talk about higher rates down the line making "value" shares find their true value.I see it more as the fact inflation runs direct to their free cash flow,but its a similar outlook.Very interesting,and you can tell they know their stuff.

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25 minutes ago, DurhamBorn said:

Hopefully people are up big amounts now in most of the miners.I took some money off the table in a few today and top sliced some,i had some big profits among my rubber band stocks and silvers.Looks like a rounded bottom from 2013 keeps finding resistance around $1360/1370.Given the over bought area we are in that is going to prove a crucial point.There is no negative divergence though on any of my indicators so we might get through to the $1400 mark this time.My cycles still say gold and the miners might fall into May then start to trend hard.If i put my road map over the cycles then it ignores now to May and says the uptrend may already be in place.I still see $1500 as the first stage in this cycle and the GDX likely to see the $35+ area in the next 18 months.

I’ve moved out my first tranche out of HOC (who have managed to further reduce net debt this year - important if this plays out as expected) and reinvested in both RMG and WMH a few days back.

Some already undervalued FTSE stocks that I’ll happily average further down in any Brexit fallout. Some real opportunities ahead for those not asleep at the wheel.

 

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Just in relation to resistance &  timing - Armstrong has for the past few years quoted $1362.50 as the Bullish Monthly reversal for Gold i.e. close above that on the last trading day of a month to confirm the break out.

Written on 17 Jan 2019: 

'Gold has been starting to realign rallying with the stock market. This is a good sign for the long-term. The Weekly Bullish stands at 1322.50..Here too we have next week as a Directional Change and the strongest target remains in mid-February...Gold is simply being driven by the political events as are the currencies and share markets. This is reflecting that people just do not know what lies ahead on the horizon.
Only a Monthly Closing above 1362.50 would signal a breakout and that does not really appear likely until 2020..'
 
and
 
'Regarding the immediate economic outlook based on our Economic Confidence Model, we remain focused the next turning point in the global economy due on Sat. Jan. 18, 2020. This will be followed by the Monetary Crisis Cycle going into 2021 which should have an important impact in the currency markets. At this moment, the world economy overall is moving into a recessary trend in Sat. Jan. 18, 2020 which will vary in intensity from country to country with the least disturbed being the United States at this juncture in time. The next turning point on the ECM thereafter will be Sun. Mar. 13, 2022 and we see this particular cycle as an inflationary one due to the decline in the purchasing power of the currency rather than a demand expansion caused by shortages in actual goods or commodities. The overall peak in this inflationary trend appears to be targeting the peak of the next 8.6-year wave due Tue. May 7, 2024, which will align also with the presidential election in the United States. Keep in mind that our political models are also highlighting Tue. May 7, 2024 as a major political turning point where confidence in government will really collapse thereafter going into the culmination of this 51.6-year ECM  due to unfold on Sun. Dec. 12, 2032.'
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3 minutes ago, Viceroy said:

Just in relation to resistance &  timing - Armstrong has for the past few years quoted $1362.50 as the Bullish Monthly reversal for Gold i.e. close above that on the last trading day of a month to confirm the break out.

Written on 17 Jan 2019: 

'Gold has been starting to realign rallying with the stock market. This is a good sign for the long-term. The Weekly Bullish stands at 1322.50 ..Gold is simply being driven by the political events as are the currencies and share markets. This is reflecting that people just do not know what lies ahead on the horizon.
Only a Monthly Closing above 1362.50 would signal a breakout and that does not really appear likely until 2020..'
 
and
 
'Regarding the immediate economic outlook based on our Economic Confidence Model, we remain focused the next turning point in the global economy due on Sat. Jan. 18, 2020. This will be followed by the Monetary Crisis Cycle going into 2021 which should have an important impact in the currency markets. At this moment, the world economy overall is moving into a recessary trend in Sat. Jan. 18, 2020 which will vary in intensity from country to country with the least disturbed being the United States at this juncture in time. The next turning point on the ECM thereafter will be Sun. Mar. 13, 2022 and we see this particular cycle as an inflationary one due to the decline in the purchasing power of the currency rather than a demand expansion caused by shortages in actual goods or commodities. The overall peak in this inflationary trend appears to be targeting the peak of the next 8.6-year wave due Tue. May 7, 2024, which will align also with the presidential election in the United States. Keep in mind that our political models are also highlighting Tue. May 7, 2024 as a major political turning point where confidence in government will really collapse thereafter going into the culmination of this 51.6-year ECM  due to unfold on Sun. Dec. 12, 2032.'

It’s one thing picking out directions of travel in the financial landscape over a period of time but it’s another all together picking out exact dates down to the day.

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2 minutes ago, Sideysid said:

It’s one thing picking out directions of travel in the financial landscape over a period of time but it’s another all together picking out exact dates down to the day.

The beginning and end of a cycle has to start somewhere

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On 19/02/2019 at 17:30, Harley said:

Been looking at technical charts this afternoon for all my target buy and holds.  Almost nada, certainly no new buys.  More the market looks like topping at least short term.  Stock technicals are weakening and my canary FTSE short ETF may start turning up soon.  Bought in March, October and December and now just going to the gym a lot!  BUT the miners have been doing well (I just look at the aggregates like GDX).  Trouble is my system just doesn't work for this market! 

With you there Harley.I've moved some shrots back on after two motnhs off since early Feb.I think a lot of Western Stock Marets are looking toppy eg DJIA,CAC,DAX,FTSE.All looking overbought.

10 hours ago, Calcutta said:

Yep that's now Nutrien. Have no idea if it's a decent buy now. 

SOIL ETF is a decent proxy that spreads the risk,obviously limits the upside

edit to add:already own Nurtrien post Potash.

10 hours ago, kibuc said:

I'm open to a possibility of a pullback and I understand your inclination to cut exposure via ETFs. Personally, I'm invested mostly in juniors/explorers that should be a bit more agnostic to the price of gold (WDO/AXR) but I'm also considering taking some profits after PDAC in early March and looking at some FTSE reflation stocks for the first time, or maybe upping my stake in INFA. But quite frankly, I don't see a pump in gold going on, rather a start of a long-term uptrend with possible corrections on the way.

I'm with you on the long term uptrend.I'm probably the worst PM mining investor on this board but I think even if we don't get a long term bull run(I think we will),we'll be reverting to long term trend as per @Majorpain chart.Either way you have to balance the risk of not having any PM exposure in a world where the CB's have prined a lot of cash

1 hour ago, DurhamBorn said:

Hopefully people are up big amounts now in most of the miners.I took some money off the table in a few today and top sliced some,i had some big profits among my rubber band stocks and silvers.Looks like a rounded bottom from 2013 keeps finding resistance around $1360/1370.Given the over bought area we are in that is going to prove a crucial point.There is no negative divergence though on any of my indicators so we might get through to the $1400 mark this time.My cycles still say gold and the miners might fall into May then start to trend hard.If i put my road map over the cycles then it ignores now to May and says the uptrend may already be in place.I still see $1500 as the first stage in this cycle and the GDX likely to see the $35+ area in the next 18 months.

AS I was saying to harley,I thinka few things could go sideways into May.At some point I expect PM's to diverge from broader equity indices

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Just now, sancho panza said:

WOlf lays in

 

https://wolfstreet.com/2019/02/20/forced-end-of-ponzi-like-leverage-fraudulent-lending-turns-australias-house-price-bubble-into-property-bloodbath/

Forced End of “Ponzi-Like Leverage” & “Fraudulent Lending” Turns Australia’s House Price Bubble into “Property Bloodbath”

by Wolf Richter • Feb 20, 2019 • 31 Comments

What banks & housing markets in Sydney and Melbourne are facing in 2019.

As investors are fleeing Australia’s housing bust, sales of new houses have plunged to record lows, and home prices in the Sydney and Melbourne metros have dropped 12% and 9% from their respective peaks in mid and late 2017. Combined, the two metros account for about two-thirds of residential property value in Australia. A two-decade-long housing boom, interrupted by only a few minor dips, led to two of the most magnificent housing bubbles in the world, and they’re not “plateauing” or anything.

The over-ripe bubble was pricked not by rising interest rates – the Reserve Bank of Australia’s policy rate remains at record low – but when bank regulators finally started to crack down on some of the bank-lending shenanigans required to inflate that kind of bubble, and when the Royal Commission into Misconduct in the Banking, Superannuation and Financial Services Industry (RC) was established in December 2017 to investigate those shenanigans and then started “revealing an epidemic of crime.”

“The financial regulators, APRA and ASIC, have now been sufficiently embarrassed by the findings of the RC to force banks to adhere to responsible lending obligations,” writes Lindsay David, of LF Economics, in a report on the headwinds that the market and the banks face in 2019. The regulatory crackdown “restricts lenders’ ability to conduct business as usual,” he says, and this has “resulted in a credit squeeze.”

Speculative investors who purchased more recently have been impacted the most. Some of them may try to sell either because they fear further price drops, or because they “have been caught out in the tsunami of IO [Interest-Only] loan resets.” But selling at survivable prices will be tough, as buyers at those prices have evaporated, “primarily due to stricter loan serviceability requirements,” as a result of the regulator crackdown, writes Lindsay David who has for years been warning about mortgage fraud and the now unfolding housing bust in Australia.

“These developments risk turning the current minor credit squeeze into a looming credit crunch,” he says in the LF Economics report.

The “so-called ‘property bloodbath,’” he writes, “is the inevitable outcome of the irrational exuberance driven by debt-financed speculation that has seduced and mesmerized a large proportion of society into becoming over-leveraged.”

And the report points out how some of the banking shenanigans contributed to the bubble on the way up, and how curtailing them is contributing to the downturn now:

Australia’s house price growth model revolved around Ponzi-like leverage, with lenders systematically accepting the unrealized capital gains of a property as a substitute for a cash deposit to borrow to purchase another property during the boom period. This has resulted in many property purchases using 100% financing, forming a clearly excessive cohort of speculative buyers that otherwise wouldn’t exist if lenders had adhered to responsible lending obligations.

The declines in Sydney and Melbourne house prices since the peak in 2017 have diminished some of the unrealized capital gains, leaving speculative property buyers, particularly those who recently purchased, at or close to negative equity. Without enough unrealized equity to make a large so-called cash deposit, this cohort of buyers will increasingly be shunted to the sidelines with no ability to purchase.

The report by LF Economics then lists a slew of headwinds that will put further pressure on this still over-inflated market as it heads lower and on the banks. Here are some of them, quoted from the report:

Mortgage application rejections: The rate of rejections has skyrocketed by over 1,000%, half of all new applications are rejected, 90% of those with pre-approval have their loan sizes reduced and refinance rejections have increased from 5% in 2017 to 40% in 2018. This is the outcome of the RC prompting lenders to abide by responsible lending obligations. With credit becoming tighter, rejections are likely to keep on rising, causing some potential borrowers to wait on the sideline.

Interest-only-loan reset shock: Approximately A$120 billion in IO loans will reset to principal-and-interest (P&I) loans over 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021, tapering off thereafter. Banks and regulators have already softened their stance on these borrowers, allowing some greater time to sell [the property] or extending the IO period for a while longer. Nevertheless, with debt repayments rising anywhere between 20% to 50% upon conversion to P&I, many recent borrowers will be placed under considerable financial stress.

Class action lawsuits: A supportive legal and financial environment for class action lawsuits has hit fertile grounds with the RC revealing widespread criminality and misconduct in the financial services industry. Driven by the profit motive, experienced litigators will fund numerous class-actions on behalf of those harmed by the industry. In doing so, this may bring more criminality to light, reduce industry profitability, and force banks to adhere to the rule of law in a way the captured regulators have not done in decades.

Foreign buyer exodus: China is the largest source of foreign investment into the housing market, in terms of both the number of purchases and value of investment. With China’s central government ramping up capital controls to stem the outflow of capital and imposing jail time for those facilitating such flight, purchases of new and established dwellings have fallen considerably. Furthermore, there is mounting evidence the Chinese government is now forcing the sale of properties owned by nationals and repatriating foreign currency back to the homeland. This will particularly affect the off-the-plan apartment complex market.

Rent slowdown: The annual growth in nominal rents is very low and negative in real terms. Sydney is particularly affected given that nominal dwelling rent growth is falling by -3% annually and more so in real terms. With current construction rates delivering a considerable flow of new houses and units, nominal rents will continue to decline into the near future, harming the balance sheets of investors, especially those who are heavily negatively-geared [investors with rental properties that have negative cashflows whose only hoped-for benefits are capital gains and full tax deductibility of losses].

Construction faults: With the Opal Tower and aluminum-cladding scandals, the media and public have become more aware of the veritable plague of construction defects within the mass of apartment complexes and townhouses…. OTP [Option to Purchase contract] buyers may choose to relinquish their deposit rather than purchasing a potentially defective dwelling and bearing the future costs of rectification. In some cases, rectification costs are greater than the purchase cost of the complex, leading to an expected negative value.

Expense benchmark crackdown: The RC indicated that lenders could not rely solely on expense benchmarks such as the HPI, HEM and internally-derived estimates [to determine if ongoing household expenses render a loan unaffordable]. Lenders must perform due diligence and obtain verified expense information from borrowers. This will significantly reduce the maximum loan size that can be originated, given such benchmarks have woefully underestimated actual expenses of borrowers, often by half or more.

Comprehensive Credit Reporting: CCR is currently 50% active and will be 100% active by July 2019 as lenders are obliged to provide relevant borrower data to credit agencies…. It also allows lenders to see any and all existing debts of borrowers which may have been previously unavailable or hidden.

Bank funding and capital raisings: International money markets have provided remarkably affordable funding, enabling lenders to originate large and risky loans. But they now face cost pressures. If house prices continue to fall, there are risks of credit downgrades stemming from lower profitability and rising non-performing loans (NPLs). This will likely cause wholesale funding costs to rise, particularly short-term rollovers and future hybrids, or other capital offerings despite backdoor coverage by the RBA. APRA is also requiring the major banks to raise tens of billions of dollars more to boost Tier 2 capital buffers, diluting earnings.

For 2019, LF Economics anticipates nominal house prices (not adjusted for inflation) to drop between 15% and 20% in Sydney and Melbourne, on top of the drops suffered in 2018 and 2017. “While forecasts of -20% falls in a calendar year alone may be dramatic, some commentators will point to the significant run-up in prices over the years,” Lindsay writes. “This fails to note that housing is not a simple unleveraged ETF; it is a highly-leveraged play, amplified by fraudulent lending practices and Ponzi finance, with implications for financial stability on the downside.”

And CoreLogic of Australia is getting outright gloomy: “Can we still describe this as an orderly slowdown in housing conditions?” Read… I’m in Awe of How Fast the Housing Markets in Sydney & Melbourne Are Coming Unglued  

From the Oz thread.Deflatrion cometh

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4 hours ago, sancho panza said:

From the Oz thread.Deflatrion cometh

That’s a rip roarer of a summary yet glosses over a couple of major additional hurdles namely:

 

1. the disruptive federal election in May - and the likelihood of a labor win meaning the negative gearing referenced above with be grandfathered possibly as soon as July 1 (start of the Oz tax year) and

 

2. the captured reserve bank who is stuck with low inflation, no wages growth yet low and falling unemployment. They will need to cut rates further to stem the property losses but it’s already getting late for them to do it it time, it’s got its own momentum..!

 

Popcorn time...

 

edit it to add the class action lawsuits against the big banks on the back of the royal commission have only just started, Westpac is first. This will keep ‘banks are bad’ messages in the news for years, will crimp their profits further and likely encourage them to be even more conservative with their future lending requirements - the snowball effect

https://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/westpac-faces-responsible-lending-class-action-20190221-p50z7z.html

 

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Yellow_Reduced_Sticker

@sancho panza RE: From the Oz thread.Deflatrion cometh

EXCELLENT reprint Thanks!

HOPEFULLY...SAME Sh*t Coming to the SE UK ...VERY soon! :Jumping: ...circa March 29th 2019 xD

@DurhamBorn anything on ya road-map about the collapse in SE house prices  over the next 12 months or so?

All I'm seeing at the mo...is prices slightly down, -5% to -10%...I WON'T be happy until there's a complete BLOOD BATH in SE properttyy...:Old:

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21 minutes ago, Barnsey said:

OZ COAL!!!!:ph34r:

Tin foil hat time - if you don't need to make steel you don't need to import coking coal.

Oz is in for a bad time with its real estate and mining completely reliant on in deep trouble China.

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5 hours ago, Sugarlips said:

That’s a rip roarer of a summary yet glosses over a couple of major additional hurdles namely:

 

1. the disruptive federal election in May - and the likelihood of a labor win meaning the negative gearing referenced above with be grandfathered possibly as soon as July 1 (start of the Oz tax year) and

 

2. the captured reserve bank who is stuck with low inflation, no wages growth yet low and falling unemployment. They will need to cut rates further to stem the property losses but it’s already getting late for them to do it it time, it’s got its own momentum..!

 

Popcorn time...

 

edit it to add the class action lawsuits against the big banks on the back of the royal commission have only just started, Westpac is first. This will keep ‘banks are bad’ messages in the news for years, will crimp their profits further and likely encourage them to be even more conservative with their future lending requirements - the snowball effect

https://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/westpac-faces-responsible-lending-class-action-20190221-p50z7z.html

 

That bit in bold is the very essence of a debt deflation-lower lending leads to lower prices-lower prices leads to lower lending etc tec etc

 

and not an interest rate rise in sight.Aussie dollar to start dropping soon which will see some price inflation emerge.

4 hours ago, Yellow_Reduced_Sticker said:

@sancho panza RE: From the Oz thread.Deflatrion cometh

EXCELLENT reprint Thanks!

HOPEFULLY...SAME Sh*t Coming to the SE UK ...VERY soon! :Jumping: ...circa March 29th 2019 xD

@DurhamBorn anything on ya road-map about the collapse in SE house prices  over the next 12 months or so?

All I'm seeing at the mo...is prices slightly down, -5% to -10%...I WON'T be happy until there's a complete BLOOD BATH in SE properttyy...:Old:

Acadata-LSL/LCP already have SE leading the line down.Prices up here in the East Mids may not start dropping for another year especially if stocks get hit and you get capital flight to 'safety' aka frying pan into the fire.

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Gents, any recommendations for a SIPP provider? It's a small amount, less than £30k. Looking for web based, easy execution etc

I won't take any recommendations as financial advice ;)

TIA

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reformed nice guy
4 hours ago, Majorpain said:

Tin foil hat time - if you don't need to make steel you don't need to import coking coal.

Oz is in for a bad time with its real estate and mining completely reliant on in deep trouble China.

Agree. There is no obvious and immediate replacement.

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pa, cna down on price cap sentiment. Funny how words without any real evidence can move things much more than hard figures.

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SE houses are going down 50% inflation adjusted,maybe 70% i think.

Centrica hit a ladder point today so bought a few more grand and last ladder point is £1.07 if it hits.Go Ahead are up 40% now from my bottom ladder buy,but im not going to sell any of those going forward as i only got 3 ladders in rather than 5 and will be holding them for the cycle.Id rather they had carried on down for a full allocation but it shows how these things can diverge at a cycle turn and how some areas turn before others.Between Centrica and Go Ahead im up £120 before dividends with decent sized holdings -18% Centrica + 28% Go Ahead.It will be interesting to see what that is in 7 years time between the two including dividends.Both are doing exactly what i hoped from an operational point to structure for the cycle ahead,but its starting to show in Go Ahead while in Centrica its still hidden from view.I really hope Centrica can unload the nuclear business as that will clean the balance sheet to a point where they can really grow the sides of the business that will flourish in the next cycle.Once reflation hits,the smaller players will all go under as they wont have the tech needed to be in the sector.My one big worry is that someone takes out Centrica at around £2.20 a share before the next cycle unfolds.

Nice jump in Playtech today as well and my last ladder had gone in at £3.66 though a much smaller allocation and -4% on them now.They could go under or go to £20 between now and 2024 and i hope its the latter.I wish they would unload the trading arm part of the business though.I think the shares would re-rate if they floated that off or sold it.

Looking across my reflation shares im down 6% as a whole before dividends,and slightly up when counting dividends.Im very happy with that at the moment and am hoping that goes negative by 15% before dividends as that will mean most outstanding ladder points have been hit.Im hoping to get more ladders into the likes of Standard Life and several others iv only started to buy since late last year.Standard Life will get whacked more in a sell off,but the next cycle will favour their business model,though again nobody else seems to think that,trackers to the moon,cant go wrong,until it does.

Im very excited for the next cycle and very happy with the way things are playing out.Being able to top slice some lovely profits from the PMs to fund falling ladder prices and so holding portfolio value small decline/steady/small increase is exactly what i structured for and its playing out well.

The miners have done very well indeed for us,though a taxing ride as always with the sector,but this period between now and May could prove tricky.However if we keep running great,if not and we do fall into May then that should provide a great point to add to positions as i fully expect the data from May/June to start to see gold and the miners trend at last to GDX $35ish,Gold $1500ish.That $1500 number is what interests me really.

Im very pleased that i went back to work as well short term.The extra capital to invest is great,but more than that it means im taking zero from my portfolio in income,so i can structure it without any outside thoughts or needs and dividends can be compounded at this crucial time.

 

The next cycle will see the economy electrified and massive changes to transport etc.Those Honda workers can go to their next jobs on a Go Ahead bus.

 

 

 

 

 

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Yellow_Reduced_Sticker
37 minutes ago, leonardratso said:

pa, cna down on price cap sentiment. Funny how words without any real evidence can move things much more than hard figures.

OR because of this PATHETIC idea...from the W :wanker: in power.

"Gas hobs in your kitchen 'to be banned within six years’ to meet emission targets"

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/gas-hobs-kitchen-banned-within-six-years-meet-emission-targets-104144445.html

CNA ...down 12% to £1.21 right now...time to FILL ya boots?:ph34r:

EDIT: @DurhamBorn, typical ya posting at same time :D BUT thanks very much for the post, some how I KNEW you would buy CNA at this REDUCED Price! xD

When i log off here, will open me HL acc and add some more CNA! CHEERS!:Beer:

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1 minute ago, Yellow_Reduced_Sticker said:

OR because of this PATHETIC idea...from the :wanker: in power.

"Gas hobs in your kitchen 'to be banned within six years’ to meet emission targets"

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/gas-hobs-kitchen-banned-within-six-years-meet-emission-targets-104144445.html

CNA ...down 12% to £1.21 right now...time to FILL ya boots?:ph34r:

I bought BAT at £5.20 when fags were going to be banned by Clinton the media said.When i sold them i think they had returned me 2000%+ including dividends.Noise like the above is lovely and should be cheered on by contrarian investors.

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