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Credit deflation and the reflation cycle to come.


DurhamBorn

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sancho panza

Debt deflation cometh....Fishers paradox???

 

https://wolfstreet.com/2019/05/15/subprime-bites-serious-auto-loan-delinquencies-spike-to-q3-2009-level-despite-strongest-labor-market-in-years/

Serious auto-loan delinquencies – 90 days or more past due – jumped to 4.69% of outstanding auto loans and leases in the first quarter of 2019, according to New York Fed data. This put the auto-loan delinquency rate at the highest level since Q4 2010 and merely 58 basis points below the peak during the Great Recession in Q4 2010 (5.27%):

US-auto-loan-deliquencies-2019-01-.png

This is what the banks are looking at.

The dollars are big. In Q1, total outstanding balances of auto loans and leases rose by 4% from a year ago to $1.28 trillion (this amount by the New York Fed is slightly higher than the amount reported by the Federal Reserve Board of Governors as part of its consumer credit data). Over the past decades, since in Q1 2009, total auto loans and leases outstanding have risen by 65%.

But the number of auto-loan accounts has risen only 34% over the decade, to 113.9 million accounts in Q1 2019. In other words, what caused much of the increase in the auto-loan balances is the ballooning amount financed with each new loan and longer loan terms that causes those loans to stay on the books longer.

US-auto-loan-balance-v-number-2019-01.png

This is what automakers are facing.

Lenders have already figured out that subprime auto loans have soured. They’ve been seeing this since 2015 or 2016. And ever so gradually, lenders have tightened their subprime underwriting standards. And subprime customers that don’t get approved for a new-vehicle loans may get approved for a much smaller loan for a cheaper used vehicle. This process has already been shifting potential new-vehicle customers to used vehicles.

For automakers, this has already shown up in their sales. New-vehicle sales, in terms of vehicles delivered to end users, peaked in 2016 and have been declining ever since. Through Q1 this year, new-vehicles sales, fleet and retail, were down 3.2% from Q1 2018, and so 2019 looks to be another down-year for the industry – the third in a row.

But this isn’t happening in a recession with millions of people losing their jobs and defaulting on their auto loans because they lost their jobs. This is happening during one of the strongest labor markets in many years. It’s happening when the economy is growing at around 3% a year. It’s happening in good times. And people with jobs are defaulting.

This is not a sign of a worsening economy, but a result of years of aggressive and reckless auto lending, aided and abetted by yield-chasing investors piling into subprime auto-loan backed securities because they offer a little more yield in an era of central-bank engineered financial repression. It’s a sign like so many others in this economy, that the whole credit spectrum has gone haywire over the years. Thank you Fed, for having engineered this whole thing with your ingenious policies. So now there’s a price to pay – even during good times.

And we already know what a scenario looks like when the cycle turns, when unemployment surges and millions of people lose their jobs and cannot make their car payments, even people with a prime credit rating – that will then turn into subprime. We know what happens to the auto industry when the economy dives into a recession. We know what this will look like because we’ve seen it before. The auto industry is very cyclical.

What we haven’t seen before is this kind of credit stress among car buyers during the best of times – with the bad times still ahead. So when credit stress gets this bad during good times, we don’t even want to imagine what it might look like during bad times. Whatever that scenario will be, it won’t be fun for automakers.

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Debt deflation cometh................please soon

My portfolio of well-known defensives and a few miners is down approx 11% this morning:(.  Not one of them is up.  I only started this investing lark in January and I may lose the faith if nothing happens soon:S..............(my middle name is gloom:D)

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1 hour ago, janch said:

.....

My portfolio of well-known defensives and a few miners is down approx 11% this morning:(.  Not one of them is up.  I only started this investing lark in January and I may lose the faith if nothing happens soon:S..............

Sounds odd seeing how well the FTSE has done.  Balanced or in a few sectors?

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DurhamBorn

Hi everyone,havent been on for a bit as really busy.Good to see the debt deflation growing underneath.Vodafone cutting the divi to repay debt faster and Imperial Brands saying they werent buying back shares as they wanted to de-leverage quicker.Iv added to both this week and im very pleased they are doing this.Vod can take credit for the move and its the right one.Shareholders might lose 4% on their yield,but i expect within 10 years Vod will be over £4.00 a share and divis will be back above where they were before the cut by a long way.Expect £10 billion free cash by 2027 and debt below £10billion.

These companies have huge free cash flow,yet they can smell the coffee and know its time to pay off debt as it comes due rather than roll over.Many companies wont be around to do the same because they dont have the cash.

The miners pulled back hard as expected and now are in a nice buying zone.I expect they will go a little lower,but iv topped all of the ones i want up now.Id rather see another 5% down than miss the 40% up that should be with us (GDX should hit $26 this year).The dollar will trend lower even if there is one last push up,and then down.Gold should start to trend late this month or June wherever it goes before that.

My ladders are now 2/3s full on the shares i want for the next cycle (outside of the PM sector) so my capital is now 2/3s invested.Im averaging down 8% after dividends and expected at this amount of ladder hits id be down 12% so it looks like if the last ladders hit il be averaging down 15% in stocks averaging down 68%.If the PMs do run as expected then they should make up for the downside in all my ladder stocks.Very very happy to be getting these prices.

Im really struggling with the yellow stickers though.Tesco is changing the times all the time and iv had to go to Sainsbury and pay 50% off instead.Its pushing up my inflation rate.

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9 hours ago, DurhamBorn said:

.......be averaging down 15% in stocks averaging down 68%......

Eh?  Could you please clarify the 68% bit.  Oh, and a list of your stocks please!!!!!!

BTW, nice to hear from you, and Sancho.  The good times return.  You also sound nice and upbeat.  I enjoyed my sabbatical but am still working out how to engage.

As mentioned, I think things are getting interesting at last.  Technically, I see further falls for my targets but your laddering talk reminds me to mitigate the risk I'm wrong or get the timing wrong.  We'll have our work cut out, but sounds like you're well ahead.  You've spurred me on to press a few buttons!

Nice to hear your views on VOD.  I was wondering what you'd say when I was reviewing things, especially when I saw mention of that stonking FCF figure in their announcement!  And their new c.6% div is still great.

Yes, technically the GDX and PMs seem to be bottoming but technically GDX is like juggling knives.  I'm going to buy sometime though as I'm fully allocated in PMs so will start looking at leveraged trades instead (GDX, etc and ultra long ETFs).  Have to say, the monthly gold chart (in GBP) is a work of beauty.  Looks like we might be at the end of a multi-year cup and handle pattern and momentum has shot up.

Yellow stickers are now a joke - hardly any money off in my Tescos, Co-op, or Morrys.  Hopefully my new chicken run and first tranche mass array of 13 raised beds will compensate, or at least improve the quality.

Looking forward to the rest of the year for the above and many other reasons including there seems to be dollops of reality starting to emerge everywhere: attitudes to politics and the media, the markets, the economy, etc rather than the previous fog and deception.

Or maybe I'm just a happy chappy!

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sancho panza

Debt deflation cometh...

https://wolfstreet.com/2019/05/16/uk-banks-double-down-on-high-risk-mortgage-products-to-prop-up-housing-market/

UK Banks Double Down on High-Risk Mortgage Products to Prop Up Housing Market

by Don Quijones • May 16, 2019 • 23 Comments • Email to a friend

Like the mortgage crisis never happened.

By Don Quijones, Spain, UK, & Mexico, editor at WOLF STREET.

As the UK housing market is facing serious challenges, a high-risk relic of the last housing bubble is staging a big comeback: the interest-only mortgage. This financial product, often held up as the epitome of irresponsible lending, is hitting the market at a faster rate than at any time since the 2008 financial crisis.There are now 193 of these mortgage products available — almost double the 102 that existed six years ago.

With these mortgages, the borrower pays only the interest on the loan but makes no principal payments, and therefore doesn’t built up equity in the property. At the end of the loan’s term, the full balance becomes due all at once. Borrowers are supposed to have an investment plan in place, such as an endowment policy, to pay off the debt. But many of these policies have under-performed, meaning that borrowers now face a shortfall.

If borrowers cannot refinance the mortgage or make other arrangements with the lender, they will end up losing their homes. Given that an estimated one in five UK mortgage holders has an interest-only loan, working out at a grand total of around 1.7 million mortgages with an aggregate value of £250 billion, this could be a serious problem.

It’s unclear how many of the debtors will actually be able to pay off the principal once it comes due. Those in homes with negative equity may be offered a lifetime mortgage, which will allow them to keep making payments on their home until the day they die, at which point the bank takes possession of the property.

Some lenders may offer borrowers the chance to extend the term of the mortgage while switching the loan to a repayment basis. But this is likely to be financially crippling for many. In an example provided by the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA), an elderly couple is accustomed to paying £313 a month on their 25-year, £125,000 interest-only mortgage. But if, on the loan’s maturity, the lender extends the term of the contract by 10 years and switches it to repayment, their monthly payments would increase almost 400% to £1,208, assuming a 3% interest rate.

For the moment, this has not been matched by a corresponding rise in demand for the high-risk product. On the contrary, the number of consumers taking out interest-only policies has fallen by 9% over the last six years, according to data published by the FCA and the Bank of England. Borrowers, it seems, are now warier of this high-risk loan.

The same cannot be said of the infamous 0%-down mortgage, which helped fuel the UK’s last madcap property boom-and-bust. After ten years in the financial wilderness, this loan product is being brought back to life by high street banks such as Lloyds, which in January unveiled an adjustable-rate mortgage with no down-payment and a teaser-interest rate for the first three years of just 2.99%.

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sancho panza
18 hours ago, DurhamBorn said:

Hi everyone,havent been on for a bit as really busy.Good to see the debt deflation growing underneath.Vodafone cutting the divi to repay debt faster and Imperial Brands saying they werent buying back shares as they wanted to de-leverage quicker.Iv added to both this week and im very pleased they are doing this.Vod can take credit for the move and its the right one.Shareholders might lose 4% on their yield,but i expect within 10 years Vod will be over £4.00 a share and divis will be back above where they were before the cut by a long way.Expect £10 billion free cash by 2027 and debt below £10billion.

These companies have huge free cash flow,yet they can smell the coffee and know its time to pay off debt as it comes due rather than roll over.Many companies wont be around to do the same because they dont have the cash.

 

I'm buying a second ladder of VOD today.very pleased to get it at this price.

I was looking at CNA FCF the other day.Worth noting that the reduction in 2018 looks like it was used to pay down debt.As you say,coffee getting smelt.

https://www.investing.com/equities/centrica-cash-flow

https://www.investing.com/equities/centrica-balance-sheet

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sancho panza
21 hours ago, janch said:

Debt deflation cometh................please soon

My portfolio of well-known defensives and a few miners is down approx 11% this morning:(.  Not one of them is up.  I only started this investing lark in January and I may lose the faith if nothing happens soon:S..............(my middle name is gloom:D)

We're heading into a major bear market imho ...DYOR.

Shares moving down before they move up comes with the territory.I've got some inital tranches in Centrica down 50% or near enough.We're still sat on 75% cash and whilst I'm buying a few PM miners now,the bulk will go in at the bottom soemtime in the next two years.

Worth noting that with all the margin compression,some traditionally defensive stocks eg Unilever,might suffer after they turn.

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Noallegiance
56 minutes ago, sancho panza said:

Debt deflation cometh...

https://wolfstreet.com/2019/05/16/uk-banks-double-down-on-high-risk-mortgage-products-to-prop-up-housing-market/

UK Banks Double Down on High-Risk Mortgage Products to Prop Up Housing Market

by Don Quijones • May 16, 2019 • 23 Comments • Email to a friend

Like the mortgage crisis never happened.

By Don Quijones, Spain, UK, & Mexico, editor at WOLF STREET.

As the UK housing market is facing serious challenges, a high-risk relic of the last housing bubble is staging a big comeback: the interest-only mortgage. This financial product, often held up as the epitome of irresponsible lending, is hitting the market at a faster rate than at any time since the 2008 financial crisis.There are now 193 of these mortgage products available — almost double the 102 that existed six years ago.

With these mortgages, the borrower pays only the interest on the loan but makes no principal payments, and therefore doesn’t built up equity in the property. At the end of the loan’s term, the full balance becomes due all at once. Borrowers are supposed to have an investment plan in place, such as an endowment policy, to pay off the debt. But many of these policies have under-performed, meaning that borrowers now face a shortfall.

If borrowers cannot refinance the mortgage or make other arrangements with the lender, they will end up losing their homes. Given that an estimated one in five UK mortgage holders has an interest-only loan, working out at a grand total of around 1.7 million mortgages with an aggregate value of £250 billion, this could be a serious problem.

It’s unclear how many of the debtors will actually be able to pay off the principal once it comes due. Those in homes with negative equity may be offered a lifetime mortgage, which will allow them to keep making payments on their home until the day they die, at which point the bank takes possession of the property.

Some lenders may offer borrowers the chance to extend the term of the mortgage while switching the loan to a repayment basis. But this is likely to be financially crippling for many. In an example provided by the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA), an elderly couple is accustomed to paying £313 a month on their 25-year, £125,000 interest-only mortgage. But if, on the loan’s maturity, the lender extends the term of the contract by 10 years and switches it to repayment, their monthly payments would increase almost 400% to £1,208, assuming a 3% interest rate.

For the moment, this has not been matched by a corresponding rise in demand for the high-risk product. On the contrary, the number of consumers taking out interest-only policies has fallen by 9% over the last six years, according to data published by the FCA and the Bank of England. Borrowers, it seems, are now warier of this high-risk loan.

The same cannot be said of the infamous 0%-down mortgage, which helped fuel the UK’s last madcap property boom-and-bust. After ten years in the financial wilderness, this loan product is being brought back to life by high street banks such as Lloyds, which in January unveiled an adjustable-rate mortgage with no down-payment and a teaser-interest rate for the first three years of just 2.99%.

Is it wrong that I'm happy about this? Genuine question. 

To me, this is a two-fold boon for me. Things like this are signs the craziness is nearing the end, and the more people diving into this means that the end result will be even worse for them and better for me in terms of getting a house at potential bargain basement prices.

Lay on McDuff!

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19 hours ago, DurhamBorn said:

My ladders are now 2/3s full on the shares i want for the next cycle (outside of the PM sector) so my capital is now 2/3s invested.Im averaging down 8% after dividends and expected at this amount of ladder hits id be down 12% so it looks like if the last ladders hit il be averaging down 15% in stocks averaging down 68%.If the PMs do run as expected then they should make up for the downside in all my ladder stocks.Very very happy to be getting these prices.

 

46 minutes ago, sancho panza said:

We're heading into a major bear market imho ...DYOR.

Shares moving down before they move up comes with the territory.I've got some inital tranches in Centrica down 50% or near enough.We're still sat on 75% cash and whilst I'm buying a few PM miners now,the bulk will go in at the bottom soemtime in the next two years.

Worth noting that with all the margin compression,some traditionally defensive stocks eg Unilever,might suffer after they turn.

Thanks both,  my faith is restored.  I don't have enough to invest for ladders unfortunately and in hindsight I would have been better to wait until about now to start investing but heh it's all part of my learning and it should all come good if I hang on.  At least I'm not one of those with massive debts (mortgage/car) to pay off.

Regarding Tescos I buy the less than own label brands eg Growers' Harvest (tinned tomatoes etc) and can't tell any difference in quality.  TE Stockwell T-bags are 50p yet own make Tescos are more than double that.  God only knows how much are "quality" brands as I never look.  As far as I can tell I still get as good a brew as I always have done:)

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Castlevania
1 hour ago, janch said:

 

Thanks both,  my faith is restored.  I don't have enough to invest for ladders unfortunately and in hindsight I would have been better to wait until about now to start investing but heh it's all part of my learning and it should all come good if I hang on.  At least I'm not one of those with massive debts (mortgage/car) to pay off.

Regarding Tescos I buy the less than own label brands eg Growers' Harvest (tinned tomatoes etc) and can't tell any difference in quality.  TE Stockwell T-bags are 50p yet own make Tescos are more than double that.  God only knows how much are "quality" brands as I never look.  As far as I can tell I still get as good a brew as I always have done:)

The Tes in Tesco stands for TE Stockwell. It’s Tesco own brand.

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Spurred on by recent posts, I grabbed some more VOD to get my allocation up to my 4% target.  A small purchase and a bit early TBH but an 11% fall for the week.  Technically, I think there might be some slightly more downside to come as the stochastics haven't bottomed and the MACD has just turned down.  We'll see.  DYOR.

Capture.thumb.JPG.d93cd63c8ffd0003d8c56e987327c292.JPG

 

Also did my weekly technical review early and nothing on my list giving me a buy.  Things are either still going up (missed the boat) or going down (wait).  My canary short FTSE ETF is giving me a buy though so yes, maybe some downside to come.  I'll probably buy a ladder.  My caution is the FTSE chart is not 100% negative - that current MACD kink could signal just a pullback like back in 20 Jun 16 and 12 Sep 16.  Unlikely but a risk, hence a cautious ladder.  If not, then maybe the chart is drawing out a bearish head a shoulders pattern.  My gut feel, given the stochastic has broken below 80%, is we are going down.  We'll see.  DYOR.

Capture.thumb.JPG.e3ffe8374de1f2d773a35d9dc345d4e5.JPG

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2 hours ago, Noallegiance said:

Is it wrong that I'm happy about this? Genuine question.....

A home is an essential chattel, not an investment, so the cheaper the better!  Good luck!

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Lightscribe
8 hours ago, sancho panza said:

We're heading into a major bear market imho ...DYOR.

Shares moving down before they move up comes with the territory.I've got some inital tranches in Centrica down 50% or near enough.We're still sat on 75% cash and whilst I'm buying a few PM miners now,the bulk will go in at the bottom soemtime in the next two years.

Worth noting that with all the margin compression,some traditionally defensive stocks eg Unilever,might suffer after they turn.

My HOC holding just nudged into the red today. I really want to add to VOD and keep averaging down in my monthly allocations, but I feel the PM miners will be the first to spring back, so I need to add more there while I can.

I think the likes of VOD etc could still fall more in a market sell off where everything is effected (even if it’s just a slight drop due to being so undervalued at the moment) so I may have a bit more time to accumulate in those holdings.

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Castlevania
25 minutes ago, Sideysid said:

My HOC holding just nudged into the red today. I really want to add to VOD and keep averaging down in my monthly allocations, but I feel the PM miners will be the first to spring back, so I need to add more there while I can.

I think the likes of VOD etc could still fall more in a market sell off where everything is effected (even if it’s just a slight drop due to being so undervalued at the moment) so I may have a bit more time to accumulate in those holdings.

This is similar to my thinking. So I’ve mainly been buying PM miners (Barrick, Harmony, Acacia) with a sprinkling of gambling companies because they seem very unloved at the moment. Although unless they fall materially from here I’m fully allocated in the PM space (have ~35% of my portfolio which is on the high side, but this was never a portfolio for widows and orphans).

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D6yzZSkW4AA8D9S.jpg:large

Tesla Finance director reduced to checking cash flow till they go bust.  If the suppliers are not asking for cash up front by this stage they deserve the loss.

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sancho panza
1 hour ago, Sideysid said:

My HOC holding just nudged into the red today. I really want to add to VOD and keep averaging down in my monthly allocations, but I feel the PM miners will be the first to spring back, so I need to add more there while I can.

I think the likes of VOD etc could still fall more in a market sell off where everything is effected (even if it’s just a slight drop due to being so undervalued at the moment) so I may have a bit more time to accumulate in those holdings.

It's worth considering that there are some stocks that do the bulk of their drops before the SHTF.VOD back in 08,did pretty much all it's dropping ahead of Oct 08.
I didn't get a chance to get any VOD today because Mrs P had me running around after the kids but I need ot get my first ladder in,it's praying on my mind. but a bit like our next tranche of PM miners ....I keep waiting and the opportunity improves.

image.png.843760fdd973713bd483fa04be3dd9fc.png

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sancho panza
9 hours ago, janch said:

 

Thanks both,  my faith is restored.  I don't have enough to invest for ladders unfortunately and in hindsight I would have been better to wait until about now to start investing but heh it's all part of my learning and it should all come good if I hang on.  At least I'm not one of those with massive debts (mortgage/car) to pay off.

 

Might be worth consdiering using a FTSE etf.Some charge only 0.06%.Less volatikity with that trade than buying individual stocks.

7 hours ago, Harley said:

Spurred on by recent posts, I grabbed some more VOD to get my allocation up to my 4% target.  A small purchase and a bit early TBH but an 11% fall for the week.  Technically, I think there might be some slightly more downside to come as the stochastics haven't bottomed and the MACD has just turned down.  We'll see.  DYOR.

Capture.thumb.JPG.d93cd63c8ffd0003d8c56e987327c292.JPG

 

Also did my weekly technical review early and nothing on my list giving me a buy.  Things are either still going up (missed the boat) or going down (wait).  My canary short FTSE ETF is giving me a buy though so yes, maybe some downside to come.  I'll probably buy a ladder.  My caution is the FTSE chart is not 100% negative - that current MACD kink could signal just a pullback like back in 20 Jun 16 and 12 Sep 16.  Unlikely but a risk, hence a cautious ladder.  If not, then maybe the chart is drawing out a bearish head a shoulders pattern.  My gut feel, given the stochastic has broken below 80%, is we are going down.  We'll see.  DYOR.

Capture.thumb.JPG.e3ffe8374de1f2d773a35d9dc345d4e5.JPG

VOD looks heavily oversold on daily/wkly/mntly charts................................

As per the FTSE,seeing the monthly looking grim unless you're positioned in cash/short.I generally always fish with the tides.

 

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Hello DOSBODers :)

I was quickly looking through silver prices (demand and supply) and stumbled on this chart from the "Silver Institute" :
https://www.silverinstitute.org/silver-supply-demand/

It shows about 10 years of price and breakdown consumption by industry.

Not being an expert on the field, I've noticed the lack of correlation of consumption and the price of it.

For my understand, lost of discussions on the threat about price to produce - i.e. market price close or below production cost for few miners , silver being produced as a by-product from some miners etc.

I believe DB was saying the skyrocket prices that will follow this specific metal ($200 - $300 ?) when SHTF...

Since apparently the price for this specific metal  doesn't correlate with industry demand (?) , what would catalyses the rampant price estimated?

Would that be because people will run to Gold as a "safe heaven" and it will drag Silver with it? (i.e. panic? peoples psychological fear behavior?).
Or would that be something related to an apocalyptic scenario after the "market crash that is looming upon us and will happen (70% down ?)" ?

Just trying to join the dots here  DOSBOders friends, any input is welcome :)

Cheers

M

P.S. I: @DurhamBorn   good to have you and @sancho panza posting again :)
P.S. II: their full report is available here https://www.silverinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/WSS2019V3.pdf

 

 

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DurhamBorn
On 17/05/2019 at 11:47, sancho panza said:

I'm buying a second ladder of VOD today.very pleased to get it at this price.

I was looking at CNA FCF the other day.Worth noting that the reduction in 2018 looks like it was used to pay down debt.As you say,coffee getting smelt.

https://www.investing.com/equities/centrica-cash-flow

https://www.investing.com/equities/centrica-balance-sheet

Even Imperial Brands is paying down debt rather than  buy back shares.These heavy cash flow companies know whats coming.Not rolling over debt will make a huge difference going forward.

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On 18/05/2019 at 11:54, M.C. UK said:

Hello DOSBODers :)

I was quickly looking through silver prices (demand and supply) and stumbled on this chart from the "Silver Institute" :
https://www.silverinstitute.org/silver-supply-demand/

It shows about 10 years of price and breakdown consumption by industry.

Not being an expert on the field, I've noticed the lack of correlation of consumption and the price of it.

For my understand, lost of discussions on the threat about price to produce - i.e. market price close or below production cost for few miners , silver being produced as a by-product from some miners etc.

I believe DB was saying the skyrocket prices that will follow this specific metal ($200 - $300 ?) when SHTF...

Since apparently the price for this specific metal  doesn't correlate with industry demand (?) , what would catalyses the rampant price estimated?

Would that be because people will run to Gold as a "safe heaven" and it will drag Silver with it? (i.e. panic? peoples psychological fear behavior?).
Or would that be something related to an apocalyptic scenario after the "market crash that is looming upon us and will happen (70% down ?)" ?

Just trying to join the dots here  DOSBOders friends, any input is welcome :)

Cheers

M

P.S. I: @DurhamBorn   good to have you and @sancho panza posting again :)
P.S. II: their full report is available here https://www.silverinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/WSS2019V3.pdf

 

 

Not sure what the official line is, but the tinfoil hat version is that JPM and possibly others have been suppressing the price while accumulating vast amounts of the stuff, presumably with an eye to pumping it at some point in the future.

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3 hours ago, Craig said:

Not sure what the official line is, but the tinfoil hat version is that JPM and possibly others have been suppressing the price while accumulating vast amounts of the stuff, presumably with an eye to pumping it at some point in the future.

Craig

Thanks -  now I vaguely remember this been mentioned - I am still struggling with the idea though O.o

 

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