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Frank Hovis

Banning pavement parking

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I've just heard that it is already banned in Scotland and it is looking to be brought in for England.  Can any Scottish people enlighten me as to how it is operated?

I ask because I see really selfish parking in town centres blocking pavements for anyone pushing a pram or in an invalid scooter so see a good case for it there.

However when I visit my brother's family, which is not in a town centre, the road is narrow and parking entirely on the street causes problems so pretty much everyone who needs to park on the street parks half on the pavement.   Enforcing it there would cause traffic problems.

So is it like residents parking zones where it applies to particular streets (and is signposted) or does it apply, in theory at least, everywhere?

 

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Indeed, it's a bit of a complex issue, but I think the problem is too many drivers do it habitually without thinking a) is this going to inconvenience pedestrians and b) is it actually going to help traffic flow. 

Amongst the most moronic examples of the habitual, hard of thinking pavement Parker are the ones who do it on a busy, but not especially wide street with a not especially wide pavement, and in so doing black the pavement and yet don't manage to not impede the free flow of traffic except for two wheelers, as the amount of road left isn't enough for two vehicles to drive past in opposite directions anyway. Such mongs might as well have just parked fully on the road. At least then the pavement would still be unblocked.

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Another rule which will be enforced in the law abiding areas and tourist stops, and ignored in the multicult colonies for fear of setting off riots.  

 

This is 100% baked into the authorities approach now.

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18 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I've just heard that it is already banned in Scotland and it is looking to be brought in for England.  Can any Scottish people enlighten me as to how it is operated?

I ask because I see really selfish parking in town centres blocking pavements for anyone pushing a pram or in an invalid scooter so see a good case for it there.

However when I visit my brother's family, which is not in a town centre, the road is narrow and parking entirely on the street causes problems so pretty much everyone who needs to park on the street parks half on the pavement.   Enforcing it there would cause traffic problems.

There are huge swathes of bristol where this would literally halve the number of residential parking locations, it would be pandemonium.

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16 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I've just heard that it is already banned in Scotland and it is looking to be brought in for England.  Can any Scottish people enlighten me as to how it is operated?

I ask because I see really selfish parking in town centres blocking pavements for anyone pushing a pram or in an invalid scooter so see a good case for it there.

However when I visit my brother's family, which is not in a town centre, the road is narrow and parking entirely on the street causes problems so pretty much everyone who needs to park on the street parks half on the pavement.   Enforcing it there would cause traffic problems.

So is it like residents parking zones where it applies to particular streets (and is signposted) or does it apply, in theory at least, everywhere?

 

I was always pretty observant on parking on the road only. However, got my car pranged when visiting a friend one evening because a car from a house opposite hit it reversing out. Had I parked partly on the pavement it would have missed. Suffice to say I park on the pavement now even though the cops did go ticketing cars there for pavement parking a few years back.

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Just now, goldbug9999 said:

There are huge swathes of bristol where this would literally halve the number of residential parking locations, it would be pandemonium.

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking would occur in some places.

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Posted (edited)

IIRC it is already illegal in London. It may also be forbidden by some local byelaws.

One problem in London is that cellars sometimes extend under the pavement. There have been instances of lorries disappearing into holes.

Edited by Happy Renting

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2 minutes ago, Happy Renting said:

IIRC it is already illegal in London. It may also be forbidden by some local byelaws.

One problem in London is that cellars sometimes extend under the pavement. There have been instances of lorries disappearing into holes.

I very much see the case for it in some areas; and very much not in others.

Hence my original question - has it been brought in in an intelligent way or it it the usual idiocy at work*?

* And just to back that up: prior to the compulsory 5p charge for plastic bags Tesco had independently developed and was supplying a bag that biodegraded in a few years (I had one in my boot and it did!); that is a far better solution to plastic bag litter because it eliminates it entirely in a few short years.  Instead we have the 5p per bag payment which to many consumers is a thoroughgoing irrelevance so whilst the plastic litter from discarded bags has been substantially reduced the chance to eliminate it altogether was missed. 

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Is it going to be left to councils to decide? Around here a ban would severely reduce parking both for residents and visitors alike. We have lots of residential roads that are Victorian, narrow and at least half the houses have no off street parking. The council has also extended resident parking zones which is good for the residents, but failed to provide alternative adequate parking for commuters etc. I fear without additional parking the town will die.

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Posted (edited)

It is not normal for cars to park on pavements, usually happens in order not to block traffic flow as roads are often narrow and cars in their growing numbers need to be parked. Some of it will be inconsiderate, most of it of no consequence.

As usual with these things it is a minority who get vexed about this; and get a photo of a narrow pavement, car and wheelchair/motorised transport, and it becomes one of those 'must do something', knee-jerk issues local politicians like to focus on.

Common sense should apply; sanctions must already exist for the worst offenders.

I'm not a fan of governments shitting out laws because of perennial moaners (you see them all the time at public meetings).

As we tend towards more totalitarianism, Scotland is leading the way. Power! Why government should be kept small.

There are always consequences and knock-on effects for these interventions.

Edited by Alonso Quijano

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Posted (edited)

If on-road parking is likely to obstruct traffic, then I would expect there to be a parking restriction on the road. Then, parking on the road or pavement would be forbidden.

But modern residential areas do have ridiculously narrow roads and inadequate garaging. God knows how fire engines get through.

And I would love to know where these cars will park up to plug in to recharge in the future..

Edited by Happy Renting

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Happy Renting said:

God knows how fire engines get through.

I recall my neighbour once asked...  she was rewarded with the sort of look youd give a dumb kid.

These guys deal with RTAs on motorways. Removal of even a Chelsea Tractor from their path is not likely to present more than a temporary impediment to their progress, if push came to shove. 

Edited by Melchett

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3 minutes ago, Happy Renting said:

If on-road parking is likely to obstruct traffic, then I would expect there to be a parking restriction on the road. Then, parking on the road or pavement would be forbidden.

But modern residential areas do have ridiculously narrow roads and inadequate garaging. God knows how fire engines get through.

And I would love to know where these cars will park up to plug in to recharge in the future..

I am sure that the underlying aim of all of these policies is to greatly reduce the amount of car ownership by making it both expensive and difficult.

A low wage worker living in a small flat and reliant upon their £500 banger to get to work is not going to be able to either buy an electric car or to park it somewhere that they can charge it; so once "dirty diesel" and "dirty petrol" cars are banned they will find themselves either cycling to work or going on the bus.

And the government will be delighted with that.

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2 minutes ago, Melchett said:

I recall my neighbour once asked...  she was rewarded with the sort of look youd give a dumb kid.

These guys deal with RTAs on motorways. Removal of even a Chelsea Tractor from their path is not likely to present more than a temporary impediment to their progress, if push came to shove. 

It's the speed of response that's affected though.

I saw a second lifeboat being launched but for whatever reason (tides, rough seas) it had to be launched from the other side of town.

The second crew had to bump each of the first crew's cars out of the way indiviudally which took a while.

 

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38 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

 There are huge swathes of bristol where this would literally halve the number of residential parking locations, it would be pandemonium.

Same in the north, especially in former industrial towns with streets full of 2 up 2 down terraces. 

43 minutes ago, wherebee said:

Another rule which will be enforced in the law abiding areas and tourist stops, and ignored in the multicult colonies for fear of setting off riots.  

Yes, can't see it happening on the streets of Oldham

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A work mate likes in an 80s cul de sac.

Smallish houses, link houses.

The 80s vision of mam and dad with a single car, kids on bikes has turned into:

Mam car, Dad car, Dad work van, boomerang kids in 20s with their own - 5 cars, randomly parked everywhere.

Ditto for on street parking permits. No point having residents parking when you dole out 2 permits per house.

One house, one car.

Bill an extra lot of council tax for the extra permit. Or let a carless neighbour set their permit.

 

 

 

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I've had a woman in a wheel char go mad at me for parking slightly on the pavement outside our house, instead of on the drive (our drive can fit 4 cars on, but they are 'stacked' so needed a shuffle to get the right one out). Anyway, at her insistence as she didn't seem to want to go away I moved the car so she could go past without going on to the road. I had the last laugh though, the car was parked in line with a lamp post that is in the pavement right near the curb, so that gap got no wider and she had to go on to the road to get around it!

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There’s different views but IMO it’s largely common sense.  Parking a bit on the pavement is helpful to road users and incommodes pedestrians..  so you are trying to strike a balance between the two.

On our road I will park slightly on the pavement because we are the only house in the street with small kids and nobody has a wheel chair. We leave enough space that pedestrians can comfortably pass, and move far enough out of the road to improve visibility so drivers can more easily see what is coming the other way.

This law would make our road slightly less safe for the benefit of nobody.  In other circumstances it may be the opposite.  

My gut overall feeling is.. if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

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Thankfully this kind of petty bureaucracy will be restricted to London and other large towns. Living in a fairly rural area I will continue to park as I see fit.

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This will give London city dwellers a dilemma, the only time their 4x4s get to go off road is onto the pavement, how will they justify a Chelsea Tractor now?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

I am sure that the underlying aim of all of these policies is to greatly reduce the amount of car ownership by making it both expensive and difficult.

A low wage worker living in a small flat and reliant upon their £500 banger to get to work is not going to be able to either buy an electric car or to park it somewhere that they can charge it; so once "dirty diesel" and "dirty petrol" cars are banned they will find themselves either cycling to work or going on the bus.

And the government will be delighted with that.

It's a half baked policy of course but I think that's true.  I think that the rapid growth and spread of national name mini supermarkets into the suburbs isn't by coincidence either and in a half baked way is linked to the idea of reduced car ownership - less distance to travel for day to day shopping.  They'll be trying to take the UK back to the 1950s just to start with - the government wouldn't want to go back to the 1960s as that was supposed to be too much fun and freedom.

Half baked policies and one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing as evidenced by rapid population increase meaning a demand for more cars.

Edited by twocents

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4 hours ago, spunko2010 said:

Thankfully this kind of petty bureaucracy will be restricted to London and other large towns. Living in a fairly rural area I will continue to park as I see fit.

Get ooorf moi laaaaaaaand.

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5 hours ago, goldbug9999 said:

There are huge swathes of bristol where this would literally halve the number of residential parking locations, it would be pandemonium.

Bristol council hates cars, they'd relish the thought of causing that.

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5 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

I very much see the case for it in some areas; and very much not in others.

Hence my original question - has it been brought in in an intelligent way or it it the usual idiocy at work*?

* And just to back that up: prior to the compulsory 5p charge for plastic bags Tesco had independently developed and was supplying a bag that biodegraded in a few years (I had one in my boot and it did!); that is a far better solution to plastic bag litter because it eliminates it entirely in a few short years.  Instead we have the 5p per bag payment which to many consumers is a thoroughgoing irrelevance so whilst the plastic litter from discarded bags has been substantially reduced the chance to eliminate it altogether was missed. 

Just to point out that the majority of 'biodegradable bags' actually work by having degradable chemical bonds holding together tiny non-biodegradable bag bits.  So, the actual process is bag -> tiny bits of non-biodegradable-plastic.  

And the few actually biodegradable bags essentially turn 'carbon locked up in plastic form forever' into 'lots of CO2' over the degradation cycle.  You might as well burn the things as at least then you get some useful energy as part of the process (rather than throwing it away).

The 'original plastic bags' are great, as they're really light (so hardly any environmental impact of creating them and distributing them), and then hang around forever, keeping that carbon locked up.  Sure, landfill isn't great, but we could have put together a strategic plastic reserve, to be used at some point when we're out of hydrocarbons.

Anyway, arguably the original problem wasn't plastic bags going into landfill, it was plastic bags being littered and then hanging around for ages.  Yup, there are fewer plastic bags, but just as much everything else.  Oh, and the punishment comes to everyone, not the actual culprits (the ones littering).

 

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Anyway -- about parking on the pavement.

It happens everywhere all the time.  It has to happen in many places because there just isn't enough parking.  Now, a sensible solution would be to instantiate long term incentives to use public transport, reducing the need for cars and thus parking spaces.  An example of a forward-thinking country is Estonia, which has just made all bus transport free for everyone in the cities.  Sure, it'll fail, but that's the sort of thinking that is needed.

But what we'll get is banning parking on pavements and not do anything to reduce the need for parking.  I suppose the local councils will get some income from fines, that they can spend on their pensions.

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