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Surveyor missed nearly £13000 of Damp


M S E Refugee

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Bricks & Mortar


My tuppence, I'd get up close to the render, and look for micro-cracks - Water can be drawn through these by capilliary action.  An amazing amount of water.   (I've seen this many times.  Once, in a different situation, with a brick/cement wall that wouldn't hold water, and a window underneath - the householder was filling buckets on the window sill - but your wall is likely to soak up the water, and slowly pass it onto the plasterwork)

If water is going in them, they may be a darker colour after rainfall, when the rest of the render has dried, but water still remains in the cracks.

I say this, not to disagree with anything written so far, but because it's something you can check yourself, for free.



 

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M S E Refugee
48 minutes ago, Bricks & Mortar said:


My tuppence, I'd get up close to the render, and look for micro-cracks - Water can be drawn through these by capilliary action.  An amazing amount of water.   (I've seen this many times.  Once, in a different situation, with a brick/cement wall that wouldn't hold water, and a window underneath - the householder was filling buckets on the window sill - but your wall is likely to soak up the water, and slowly pass it onto the plasterwork)

If water is going in them, they may be a darker colour after rainfall, when the rest of the render has dried, but water still remains in the cracks.

I say this, not to disagree with anything written so far, but because it's something you can check yourself, for free.



 

To be honest I would like to knock off all of the render on the front of the house eventually if possible as I do believe that it is or will cause many problems down the line.

I will try to do what I can for now,I hope to retire in 9 years and I will renovate the whole house properly then.

Thank you all for your time and advice it has been most helpful,the points raised about the concrete driveway and concrete paths at the back of the house are definitely worth exploring.

It looks like I have bought a turd that has been covered in glitter.

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Makes sense, thick walls like that would tend to have more rounded edges if rendered/original. They've tried to isolate/hide the damp problem but not bothered to do anything to prevent bridging between the old and new wall. It might all be fine if you fix the gable end and get a decent roof overhang..There might have been one originally but successive render jobs have filled the gap.Roofer could inset two rows of stone/brick/something at apex to extend roof. I would still consider that as a separate job and see what happens rather than rushing in to hacking off the whole lot - as well as attending to any other roofline faults at same time. You might get lucky and it will all dry out, or need additional minor works to window headers. 

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53 minutes ago, Bricks & Mortar said:


My tuppence, I'd get up close to the render, and look for micro-cracks - Water can be drawn through these by capilliary action.  An amazing amount of water.   (I've seen this many times.  Once, in a different situation, with a brick/cement wall that wouldn't hold water, and a window underneath - the householder was filling buckets on the window sill - but your wall is likely to soak up the water, and slowly pass it onto the plasterwork)

If water is going in them, they may be a darker colour after rainfall, when the rest of the render has dried, but water still remains in the cracks.

I say this, not to disagree with anything written so far, but because it's something you can check yourself, for free.



 

Absolutely, just think you have very little chance of diagnosing that at the outset (unless obvious) and if known major fault at roofline get that fixed and proceed from there. Slowly, slowly catch monkey and yes investigate as much as possible before committing to wide scale works that may be unnecessary.

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2 hours ago, M S E Refugee said:

It was built in 1850 and I would assume that underneath the render it has been built with sandstone,brick,slate and cobbles.

Yes the bottom floor is concrete.

Do you know about the pointing in between the bricks? As someone else said it might be that it should have been done in lime but someone has bodged it with modern cement which is non porous. This is quite common cause of damp problems in older houses, don't know in ~1850 if they used lime then though maybe @onlyme or someone will know? You can check the style of the brickwork which generally speaking can be aged to a period eg english bonding wasn't really used after IIRC 1780s o it should be flemish bond which is Georgian.

Anyway quite a simple task to rake it out and redo it, just time-consuming.

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M S E Refugee
6 minutes ago, spunko2010 said:

Do you know about the pointing in between the bricks? As someone else said it might be that it should have been done in lime but someone has bodged it with modern cement which is non porous. This is quite common cause of damp problems in older houses, don't know in ~1850 if they used lime then though maybe @onlyme or someone will know? You can check the style of the brickwork which generally speaking can be aged to a period eg english bonding wasn't really used after IIRC 1780s o it should be flemish bond which is Georgian.

Anyway quite a simple task to rake it out and redo it, just time-consuming.

Yes I believe the builder has applied modern methods to renovating an old house and I presume that it is cheaper and quicker and initially looks good for a few years then after that it becomes a huge moneypit.

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6 minutes ago, M S E Refugee said:

Yes I believe the builder has applied modern methods to renovating an old house and I presume that it is cheaper and quicker and initially looks good for a few years then after that it becomes a huge moneypit.

Anything before 1930 will have been built using Lime. Modern concrete repairs won't be doing you any favours as the wall needs to breathe and it can't. You need that render off now not in 9 years time...

Plus most builders are actually idiots while they know how to do things they may not think if they are check - old houses require people who know what are required to stop damage being done due to ignorance and a fast buck....

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1 minute ago, M S E Refugee said:

Yes I believe the builder has applied modern methods to renovating an old house and I presume that it is cheaper and quicker and initially looks good for a few years then after that it becomes a huge moneypit. 

It is a money pit, tell me about it. But you can fix many of the things yourself, I am not great at DIY but raking out mortar and things is easy, a couple of hours at the weekend etc and it'll be done in a month. Generally I spend money on getting urgent things fixed, the rest just doing gradually myself. You start to enjoy it after a while - kind of. :Geek:

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Caravan Monster
3 hours ago, M S E Refugee said:

It was built in 1850 and I would assume that underneath the render it has been built with sandstone,brick,slate and cobbles.

Yes the bottom floor is concrete.

Expect the roof will need work. When the house was built, it would have had a more breathable type flooring: rammed earth, brick, flags, suspended or whatever. Now the groundwater under the house is trapped by a plastic dpm sheet with a solid lump of concrete sat on top and the only way it can escape is up the walls. Judging from the depth of the window opening, it could well be a mass wall: stone facing with a rubble infill, which cannot have an effective damp proof course or chemical treatment. The yard concrete outside is a similar problem, probably best to cut it about a foot away from the wall, dig down as far a as possible and backfill with clean hardcore topped with gravel. As mentioned above, long term the render and plaster board should go. The plaster looks so fresh I would be tempted to leave the windows open all summer and see if it dries out adequately as a temporary solution. To a degree old building methods are accessible to diy'ers and there is plenty of info on the web and people teaching courses, but a builder / stonemason familiar with historic and local building methods is valuable help and will have the feel for materials and aesthetics of local building styles gained from experience.

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19 hours ago, M S E Refugee said:

 

I got a home buyers report which cost me £500 a complete waste of money.

I spoke to  my solicitor today and she wasn't confident that I could do anything.

Indeed a standard house buyers report from a surveyor says:

may be  (structural / damp / asbestos/ woodworm / electrical / gas / plumbing / roof ) issues, consult a specialist surveyor.

he's just a signposter that your house exists for mortgage purposes. 

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No Duff (troll)
7 hours ago, M S E Refugee said:

Yes I believe the builder has applied modern methods to renovating an old house and I presume that it is cheaper and quicker and initially looks good for a few years then after that it becomes a huge moneypit.

Quite typical.  Take comfort you are well not alone.  Even the new builds can be dire!  And to be fair, the vendor may just have listened to their builder without any malice. Any nearby homeowners with a similar structure you can talk to?  I learnt the hard way after a test run with some modern builders and have since been on lime and stone mason courses and done most myself. Yes, a modern bodge looks good for a while.  I'm renovating a mixed property of old and new and treat each bit differently.  I've learnt loads and enjoyed it.  Even been offered stone work jobs too.  Not that more expensive really, depending on the works and you will probably ending up knowing more than most builders. That's if it is indeed lime, etc. Hardest part is insulating an old building.  Best thing I did was take my time and research.  Ty Mawr are good on lime stuff if you want to get involved.  The internet is great but lots of conflicting advice and some supposed experts are just plain wrong (like the use of PVA) so best to cross check.  Maybe best to sort out roof first, then lower section of gable as mentioned, and then the gable.  Floor could be tricky.  Expect the gable wall to be crap.  They were quite often badly made as they were intended to be rendered (lime).  Exposed stone, and early brick, is a modern thing.  Probably not what you were expecting but maybe a new hobby!  And at least you'll know all about the house.  Best of luck. 

PS:. £13k is a hell of a lot so don't rush to spend it.  Also most damp "specialists" and old buildings don't mix.  You could waste a lot of money.  Getting the right builder is key.  Either not qualified or some posh boys making out it's sooo special.  Somewhere there's an old bloke with a small van who knows it all and just gets on with it.  

PPS:  Even I have a section of cement rendered stone wall kindly done before I moved in but it's a sheltered wall and no problems so as mentioned, just try things out and see before spending a wodge.

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No Duff (troll)
7 hours ago, eek said:

Anything before 1930 will have been built using Lime. Modern concrete repairs won't be doing you any favours as the wall needs to breathe and it can't. You need that render off now not in 9 years time...

Very true.  The other common problem with using cement with stone and some brick is cement mortar is harder so the stone cracks first when the wall moves (which it will if it lacks foundations).  Lime was also used as a mortar because it is sacrificial - it will give way first and can be repointed.  

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InLikeFlynn

I would be very wary of following the advice of the damp specialist tbh. There are some good honest ones out there but they are in the minority and most won't have a clue about older buildings.

Research, reading and investigation is likely to be the best approach until you understand the problem more fully.

What are similar houses (i.e from the 1850s)  in the area built from?

If your gable wall is "rubble" sandstone and lime, with a cement render over (and possibly recent cement repointing ) then that could be the cause of the damp.  Lime and sandstone are porous so old walls act like a wick, drawing water up from the ground and evaporating from the outer face.  The application of cement (which is waterproof) to this stops the evaporation and can cause the damp to exit through the interior. The render is bad news and probably needs to come off, possibly you could replace with lime render.

Other possible causes are water running down the wall and getting in to crack in the render and seeping through, if the render is new this is unlikely but not impossible.

Another possibility is a leaking plumbing fixture behind the wall, although reading your posts in more detail you are unlikely to find pipework behind dot and dab plasterboard!

Which way does the gable face? Is that the direction from which your weather arrives?

 

Good luck

 

 

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19 minutes ago, InLikeFlynn said:

I would be very wary of following the advice of the damp specialist tbh. There are some good honest ones out there but they are in the minority and most won't have a clue about older buildings

 

Agreed, our first house we had 3 companies in one was close to areas of concern, the others miles out and offered extensive work to be done. Upshot was I bought a damp meter, found the wettest spots - mainly single skin kitchen extension, just had it re-rendered and plastered inside and was absolutely fine. Other place that was problematic was rot to floor joist in hallway - recommendations mainly were to hack off and refinish whole length of internal wall (this was a terraced house. Actual problem was raised concrete path resulting in water level air brick and a a rotted joist as a result, just replaced the joist and left the wall is as and again was fine.Mind you did nothing with the path as it would probably have taken decades to do the same. I think true rising damp causing serious problems is pretty rare and quite often it is one of the factors already mentioned,

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M S E Refugee
27 minutes ago, InLikeFlynn said:

I would be very wary of following the advice of the damp specialist tbh. There are some good honest ones out there but they are in the minority and most won't have a clue about older buildings.

Research, reading and investigation is likely to be the best approach until you understand the problem more fully.

What are similar houses (i.e from the 1850s)  in the area built from?

If your gable wall is "rubble" sandstone and lime, with a cement render over (and possibly recent cement repointing ) then that could be the cause of the damp.  Lime and sandstone are porous so old walls act like a wick, drawing water up from the ground and evaporating from the outer face.  The application of cement (which is waterproof) to this stops the evaporation and can cause the damp to exit through the interior. The render is bad news and probably needs to come off, possibly you could replace with lime render.

Other possible causes are water running down the wall and getting in to crack in the render and seeping through, if the render is new this is unlikely but not impossible.

Another possibility is a leaking plumbing fixture behind the wall, although reading your posts in more detail you are unlikely to find pipework behind dot and dab plasterboard!

Which way does the gable face? Is that the direction from which your weather arrives?

 

Good luck

 

 

The Gable end is West facing.

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Green Devil

If you want a little project, get a cutting disk and cut 12 inch channel in the concrete path all round the house. Excavate as far as you can and fill it with pea gravel, this enables the wall to breathe below ground level and the water to evaporate out, rather than capilliary up the wall.

Im not an expert, perhaps some method of drainage might be required as well, but ive seen this done on old houses with rising damp. Obvioulsy if the wall is stained itll need to be dried out or replastered anyway.

If you tank youll need to knock off 1.8m all round the room, tank it and replaster. A big and messy job. Best try to fix the issue first, check the roof too.

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Bricks & Mortar
1 hour ago, onlyme said:

Absolutely, just think you have very little chance of diagnosing that at the outset (unless obvious) and if known major fault at roofline get that fixed and proceed from there.

Agree, on getting the roof fixed first.  Only putting the point about micro-cracks as I think it might well be obvious after rainfall. If they turn up, you might decide the render is a priority.

From what I'm seeing on the plasterboard, I think the dampness is coming either through the wall or from the roof.  While there may be problems at ground level, I wouldn't expect the dampness to rise so far up from there.

 

1 hour ago, Green Devil said:

Excavate as far as you can...

Again, I don't believe this will solve the damp wall, as i don't believe this is rising damp.  If it is though, then this will improve it.  The golden rule is not to excavate any further than the bottom of the wall though.  Keep checking as you dig.

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5 hours ago, Bricks & Mortar said:

Agree, on getting the roof fixed first.  Only putting the point about micro-cracks as I think it might well be obvious after rainfall. If they turn up, you might decide the render is a priority.

From what I'm seeing on the plasterboard, I think the dampness is coming either through the wall or from the roof.  While there may be problems at ground level, I wouldn't expect the dampness to rise so far up from there.

Again, I don't believe this will solve the damp wall, as i don't believe this is rising damp.  If it is though, then this will improve it.  The golden rule is not to excavate any further than the bottom of the wall though.  Keep checking as you dig.

Totally agree, I might have helped muddy the waters by also suggesting not having concrete path line meeting rendered wall (well any wall really) as can cause issues too.  Good point about not over digging - don't want to disturb foundation, just a few inches of gravel free draining into soil is sufficient in most cases.

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No Duff (troll)
12 hours ago, InLikeFlynn said:

I would be very wary of following the advice of the damp specialist tbh. There are some good honest ones out there but they are in the minority and most won't have a clue about older buildings.

Research, reading and investigation is likely to be the best approach until you understand the problem more fully.

What are similar houses (i.e from the 1850s)  in the area built from?

If your gable wall is "rubble" sandstone and lime, with a cement render over (and possibly recent cement repointing ) then that could be the cause of the damp.  Lime and sandstone are porous so old walls act like a wick, drawing water up from the ground and evaporating from the outer face.  The application of cement (which is waterproof) to this stops the evaporation and can cause the damp to exit through the interior. The render is bad news and probably needs to come off, possibly you could replace with lime render.

Other possible causes are water running down the wall and getting in to crack in the render and seeping through, if the render is new this is unlikely but not impossible.

Another possibility is a leaking plumbing fixture behind the wall, although reading your posts in more detail you are unlikely to find pipework behind dot and dab plasterboard!

Which way does the gable face? Is that the direction from which your weather arrives?

 

Good luck

 

 

I think you missed a bit.

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  • 1 month later...
M S E Refugee

I have decided against tanking for the time being as I am not convinced it is the best route as there are issues with the roof,guttering and pointing etc.

Anyhow the builders have started work today and we asked them to remove the plasterboard in our bedroom as it seemed encroach more than it needed to.

It has revealed some quite nice brick and stone work that we would probably like to keep as a feature wall,has anyone got any experience of re-pointing and sealing stonework.

Do I re-point the stone work with lime mortar and then use a sealant?

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leonardratso
4 minutes ago, M S E Refugee said:

I have decided against tanking for the time being as I am not convinced it is the best route as there are issues with the roof,guttering and pointing etc.

Anyhow the builders have started work today and we asked them to remove the plasterboard in our bedroom as it seemed encroach more than it needed to.

It has revealed some quite nice brick and stone work that we would probably like to keep as a feature wall,has anyone got any experience of re-pointing and sealing stonework.

Do I re-point the stone work with lime mortar and then use a sealant?

do they not wash it down in acid first for internal exposed brick work before sealing it? im no expert but im sure my BIL did something like that when he exposed brickwork and decided to make it  a feature. Mind was a long time ago, so my memory might be shot.

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M S E Refugee
Just now, leonardratso said:

do they not wash it down in acid first for internal exposed brick work before sealing it? im no expert but im sure my BIL did something like that when he exposed brickwork and decided to make it  a feature. Mind was a long time ago, so my memory might be shot.

From what I have read on the net it is a lot of work to clean the stone work so it is free of dust.

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leonardratso
Just now, M S E Refugee said:

From what I have read on the net it is a lot of work to clean the stone work so it is free of dust.

ah, just plaster over it, no one will notice.

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Just make sure you've not removed enough plaster in one go to have to now enact the latest standards in insulation.

 

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Bricks & Mortar
18 hours ago, leonardratso said:

do they not wash it down in acid first

I'd be very wary of acid.  Maybe on a high quality brick wall, built with cement mortar.  If there's lime mortar, or sedimentary stone (like sandstone, for instanc) - the acid could just eat this up.

Any chance of a photo of the brick/stonework in question?

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