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No Duff (troll)

The Threat of Post Modernism?

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Posted (edited)

Now I'm a down to earth sort of bod so I leave intellectualism to others, content they're locked up in their ivory towers, "most harmless".  I didn't even know what a SJW was until last night!  But even a normal, down to earth "deplorable", struggles these days to stay sane.  Just look at the threads on this board for examples:

. Political activity at work

. Trump's progress

. General election 2018

. Heads up for QT tonight

. Why are the So-Called BBC such arseholes? 

. Even "Credit deflation and the reflation cycle to come" (i.e. post modernism amongst our central bankers, etc) 

. And others.

The typical (official) response would seem to be "a small bunch of right wing twats".  Yet, you seem to consistently hear such things outside the restricted world of the Establishment (media, politics, etc), such as down the pub, over a coffee, and at home, and see it manifest itself in the Brexit vote, etc.  It seems mainstream talk in the mainstream.  

Somehow, I started an internet journey last night and feel tremendous relief at being able to join these dots in a bit of "root cause analysis".  I also now realise there are some very bright and well read people on this board.  Post modernism has infested academia for many decades and affected many of those passing through who are now in positions of influence (the Establishment).  Now until last night, I would run a mile at hearing something like "Post Modernism", but, as Prof Patterson says, you cannot ignore it.  It helps to explain such dynamics as why our Establishment (political, media, intellectual, legal, etc) is so divorced from us "deplorables".

There are many ways to take this journey, but mine started somewhere around the debate about the Cathy Newman interview of Jordan Peterson (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS9W-wlJHPA), then the whole Canadian transgender Bill C16 identity issue (e.g.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-FsXr-iYAU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Z1dKqythc), then the Munk "Political Correctness Debate" with Stephen Fry (I now rather like him), Jordan Peterson, Michael Dyson, and Michelle Goldberg (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uqA58YK4Ro), then "Melanie Phillips: How the media manipulates truth" with an excellent analysis of the So-Called BBC (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te01MtCJP0w), and finally Post Moderism (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPojltjv4M0).  All this, and more, took hours, so no wonder the majority of us just feel uncomfortable in the darkness. 

For me, I think I've found the problem.

"You need to understand Post Modernism because that's what you're up against, and you're up against it far more than you know or think and it's a much more of a developed and pervasive, pernicious, nihilistic, intellectually attractive, doctrine than has yet come to public realisation".  Prof Jordan Paterson.    

By all means, discuss and educate, one way or the other.

Disclosure:  Seems I'm an old fashioned British liberal!

 

 

Edited by No Duff

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, The Masked Tulip said:

Think many gave their thoughts re this in this thread

 

 

Apologies, if all this has been said before, although mine is not about the alt right specifically and arguably even politics in general.  More the rejection of objective and rationale thought in favour of unsubstantiated subjectivity and the dissection of society and ensuing victim culture.  Anyways, forgive my thread, but it feels so good (sane) when you think you understand the essence of a problem!  Maybe I'm just saying I've finally caught up! 

 

Edited by No Duff

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5 minutes ago, No Duff said:

 

Apologies, if all this has been said before, although mine is not about the alt right specifically and arguably even politics in general.  More the rejection of objective and rationale thought in favour of unsubstantiated subjectivity and the dissection of society and ensuing victim culture.  Anyways, forgive my thread, but it feels so good (sane) when you think you understand the essence of a problem!  Maybe I'm just saying I've finally caught up! 

 

 

Sorry, wasn't meaning to close down your discussion. Just wanted to point out that there has been a big discussion on the things that you are thinking about and thought that you might find some interesting thoughts in the thread. You may even find the meaning to existence buried in there somewhere... but I doubt it... :)

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12 minutes ago, The Masked Tulip said:

 

Sorry, wasn't meaning to close down your discussion. Just wanted to point out that there has been a big discussion on the things that you are thinking about and thought that you might find some interesting thoughts in the thread. You may even find the meaning to existence buried in there somewhere... but I doubt it... :)

Ta, yes, took it as intended and spent some time over there.  Currently watching the Starkey link.  Need a nap right now!

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6 hours ago, No Duff said:

Now I'm a down to earth sort of bod so I leave intellectualism to others, content they're locked up in their ivory towers, "most harmless".  I didn't even know what a SJW was until last night!  But even a normal, down to earth "deplorable", struggles these days to stay sane.  Just look at the threads on this board for examples:

. Political activity at work

. Trump's progress

. General election 2018

. Heads up for QT tonight

. Why are the So-Called BBC such arseholes? 

. Even "Credit deflation and the reflation cycle to come" (i.e. post modernism amongst our central bankers, etc) 

. And others.

The typical (official) response would seem to be "a small bunch of right wing twats".  Yet, you seem to consistently hear such things outside the restricted world of the Establishment (media, politics, etc), such as down the pub, over a coffee, and at home, and see it manifest itself in the Brexit vote, etc.  It seems mainstream talk in the mainstream.  

Somehow, I started an internet journey last night and feel tremendous relief at being able to join these dots in a bit of "root cause analysis".  I also now realise there are some very bright and well read people on this board.  Post modernism has infested academia for many decades and affected many of those passing through who are now in positions of influence (the Establishment).  Now until last night, I would run a mile at hearing something like "Post Modernism", but, as Prof Patterson says, you cannot ignore it.  It helps to explain such dynamics as why our Establishment (political, media, intellectual, legal, etc) is so divorced from us "deplorables".

There are many ways to take this journey, but mine started somewhere around the debate about the Cathy Newman interview of Jordan Peterson (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS9W-wlJHPA), then the whole Canadian transgender Bill C16 identity issue (e.g.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-FsXr-iYAU and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Z1dKqythc), then the Munk "Political Correctness Debate" with Stephen Fry (I now rather like him), Jordan Peterson, Michael Dyson, and Michelle Goldberg (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uqA58YK4Ro), then "Melanie Phillips: How the media manipulates truth" with an excellent analysis of the So-Called BBC (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te01MtCJP0w), and finally Post Moderism (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPojltjv4M0).  All this, and more, took hours, so no wonder the majority of us just feel uncomfortable in the darkness. 

For me, I think I've found the problem.

"You need to understand Post Modernism because that's what you're up against, and you're up against it far more than you know or think and it's a much more of a developed and pervasive, pernicious, nihilistic, intellectually attractive, doctrine than has yet come to public realisation".  Prof Jordan Paterson.    

By all means, discuss and educate, one way or the other.

Disclosure:  Seems I'm an old fashioned British liberal!

 

 

I listened to that Munk debate with Stephen Fry and Peterson. It certainly wasn't Peterson's best though I got the impression he was seething at an ad-hom by Dyson (a balls-out racist and typical bible belt pulpit huckster) that hadn't been called out by the chair. 

Stephen Fry had the mark of the man and threw a few withering observations his way.

Anyway if you want to hear Petersen on form, listen to his appearances on Joe Rogan.

Sam Harris is also very good value to listen to and the Moral Maze can be good on radio 4 if you like Melanie Phillips opinions.

I agree about postmodernism, once you've recognised it, it pops up everywhere and not for the good. Peterson is right about that.

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Does no one else just think all this is the result of care in the community? That until the 1980s these people (professional victims, agitators, people who talk to themselves) were safely locked away in padded rooms and hospital wards...now they just fill the ranks of the labour party and often tory party too?

I will say the wars seem to have had a devastating effect on European people generally. 

Oddly, Japan did not behave this way post 1945, despite having many similarities. Turkey neither. Both continue to be proud of their culture and want to preserve it (in Turkeys case, expand it too)

It seemed our ancestors built up centuries of wisdom and knowledge about the various creeds & cultures around the world, just for that to be roundly forgotten & disposed of as 'ethnocentric' and invalid bigotry post 1945. The colonial era has been re-framed as entirely just whites being good old white supremacists, mindlessly so. I see it far more as a dominate, or be dominated choice. The empire, IMO, was simple a strategic response to rivalry.

Belloc in 1938...

It has always seemed to me possible, and even probable, that there would be a resurrection of Islam and that our sons or our grandsons would see the renewal of that tremendous struggle between the Christian culture and what has been for more than a thousand years its greatest opponent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilaire_Belloc#On_Islam

 

I also think, perhaps paradoxically, while we've forgotten our own history, we've been educating people too much in abstractions, which has been a disaster. As they say 'A little learning is a dangerous thing' An example would be sociology (perhaps all social sciences) where students are groomed to view every disequilibrium as the necessarily the result of a societal ill. Nothing can be by chance. Everything is premeditated, and probably with nefarious intent behind it. Thats fine for a questioning mind, that is curious enough to critically analyze things, and reject such conclusions on better evidence, but how many of these SJW grads really have open minds, and how much just want the easy life of bias confirmation?

 

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1 hour ago, Panther said:

Postmodernism = 'well that's just your opinion isn't it'

I like the quote "E=MC2 is false because Einstein was part of the Patriarchy and therefore racist".

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9 minutes ago, Sgt Hartman said:

I listened to that Munk debate with Stephen Fry and Peterson. It certainly wasn't Peterson's best though I got the impression he was seething at an ad-hom by Dyson (a balls-out racist and typical bible belt pulpit huckster) that hadn't been called out by the chair. 

Stephen Fry had the mark of the man and threw a few withering observations his way.

Anyway if you want to hear Petersen on form, listen to his appearances on Joe Rogan.

Sam Harris is also very good value to listen to and the Moral Maze can be good on radio 4 if you like Melanie Phillips opinions.

I agree about postmodernism, once you've recognised it, it pops up everywhere and not for the good. Peterson is right about that.

Respect to you if you listened to the whole lot.  I ended up watching the edited one of just Paterson and Fry.  I never liked Fry but do now, a lot.  He was so eloquent, with meaning.

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7 minutes ago, No Duff said:

Respect to you if you listened to the whole lot.  I ended up watching the edited one of just Paterson and Fry.  I never liked Fry but do now, a lot.  He was so eloquent, with meaning.

The edited version would have been a better shout. That Dyson guy was horribly prolix and tiresome. A rival to Russell Brand in the meaningless big-word bingo contest.

His partner was better even though I didn't agree with her on virtually anything, at least she wasn't a straight up chode like Dyson.

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6 minutes ago, PatronizingGit said:

It has always seemed to me possible, and even probable, that there would be a resurrection of Islam

On a tangent, if a post modernist culture indeed does result in the de-masculation of man (and indeed the de-feminisation of woman) as I believe Paterson is saying, then maybe they would look elsewhere.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, One percent said:

Many thanks.  I might also get Paterson's latest book, although I'm not sure I need it, being a long term believer in no rights without responsibilities and having mutually happy relationships based on space for, and the celebration of, gender differences and relative strengths.  As well as being, well, "verbally unconstrained"! 

Edited by No Duff

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29 minutes ago, No Duff said:

I like the quote "E=MC2 is false because Einstein was part of the Patriarchy and therefore racist".

I was once in a position that found me explaining to lay people why one object was stronger than another.  It was pure strength of materials and mathematical formula.  Many times I was faced with, "But that is just your opinion."  I would explain that, no, it was not an opinion it was established engineering.  Made no difference.  They believed what they wanted to believe and facts just got in the way.  I have to put it down to a very poor education and general knowledge.  And . . . "You can't fix stupid."

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3 minutes ago, No Duff said:

Many thanks.  I might also get Paterson's latest book, although I'm not sure I need it, being a long term believer in no rights without responsibilities and having mutually happy relationships based on space for, and the celebration of, gender differences and relative strengths.  As well as being, well, "verbally unconstrained"! 

Mind, I managed two pages of that. Impenetrable tripe imho. 

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50 minutes ago, Sgt Hartman said:

Sam Harris is also very good value to listen to and the Moral Maze can be good on radio 4 if you like Melanie Phillips opinions.

Having now listened to Sam a bit I can't really take him too seriously. At first captivating, now quite painful. Listening to him talk about Trump though is hilarious.

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While I find it interesting to think about the dark ages, enlightenment, modernism, post modernism etc ultimately I think that overall the human race are basically savages who will never succeed in creating peace on Earth.

It’s about the other and groups IMO. Countries, nations, races, religions, political parties, rich, poor, employed, unemployed, able bodied, disabled etc etc.

Millions, thousands or a few hundred voices (depending on the group). All squabbling and fighting to gain control. Of course, some groups always have more power than others.

Who shall win the current squabbling and power grabbing?

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9 minutes ago, Snow bird said:

.......They believed what they wanted to believe and facts just got in the way.  I have to put it down to a very poor education and general knowledge....... 

Either that or due to a post modernist education (indoctrination)!

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7 minutes ago, Admiral Pepe said:

Having now listened to Sam a bit I can't really take him too seriously. At first captivating, now quite painful. Listening to him talk about Trump though is hilarious.

He can be quite subject dependant. On some things I find him fascinating, on others...not so much.

He also has a bit of a monotone delivery which can be quite hard work.

I'm a bit like that with Ben Shapiro, I find the guy unlistenable even if I may agree with him on some things.

 

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1 minute ago, Van Lady said:

While I find it interesting to think about the dark ages, enlightenment, modernism, post modernism etc ultimately I think that overall the human race are basically savages who will never succeed in creating peace on Earth.

It’s about the other and groups IMO. Countries, nations, races, religions, political parties, rich, poor, employed, unemployed, able bodied, disabled etc etc.

Millions, thousands or a few hundred voices (depending on the group). All squabbling and fighting to gain control. Of course, some groups always have more power than others.

Who shall win the current squabbling and power grabbing?

A whole, and arguably more senior, topic in itself.  Indeed one of interest to me ever since I studied Locke and co and the "Social Contract" many years ago.  The context of my current thoughts about post modernism are very much focussed on trying to understand the current disconnect between the Establishment and the "deplorables" (us).  Something we see in the many threads on this board and out in mainstream.  I agree with Paterson that "You need to understand Post Modernism because that's what you're up against, and you're up against it far more than you know or think and it's a much more of a developed and pervasive, pernicious, nihilistic, intellectually attractive, doctrine than has yet come to public realisation". 

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