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spygirl

'Highly skilled migrants' + UK ILR

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May 2018

' At least 1,000 highly skilled migrants seeking indefinite leave to remain (ILR) in the UK are wrongly facing deportation under a section of the Immigration Act designed in part to tackle terrorists and individuals judged to be a threat to national security, MPs and experts have said. '

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/06/at-least-1000-highly-skilled-migrants-wrongly-face-deportation-experts-reveal

Oh no! Wont someone do *something*!!!!!!

 

July 2018

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/migrants-caught-lying-over-pay-in-effort-to-stay-in-uk-c2ww9g377

(Paywall. Partial article).

'Hundreds of highly skilled migrants trying to stay in the UK permanently have been found abusing the system, according to the immigration minister.

Migrants who had been denied leave to remain were found to have exaggerated their earnings on applications to the Home Office when the figures were checked against their tax records.

In almost 90 per cent of the cases reviewed, the applicants had amended their records with HM Revenue & Customs by increasing their earnings by more than £10,000, Caroline Nokes told MPs.'

(Something extra about not declaring all their income too).

I bet its loads of Ozzies/Kimiws not declaring their bar tips ....

 

 

 

Guardian links this soon to be classic:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/29/tories-immigration-labour-deportation

'The Tories have made a mess of immigration. Only Labour can fix it

Diane Abbottopotamus'

 

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8 minutes ago, billfunk said:

This silly "highly-skilled" nonsense again. The country shouldn't care about their skill level but rather whether they are fiscally positive or not. A single immigrant worker should have to earn £35K. A worker with a partner and two kids £60k.

I would question just how "highly-skilled" they are if they do not fit these criteria (the average wage in London being low £40K).

Maybe if the companies employing these "highly-skilled" people but paying less than £35K should be forced to either raise the wage so that it is at least fiscally neutral, or, even better use their capital appropriately to train their own "highly-skilled" people from the millions of young people already in this country desperate for a future.

 

Indeed, esp. where some of the 'skill' seem to stretch to tax evasion.

Those Aussie n Kiwis with their bullshit and lies ....

 

 

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Posted (edited)

 

36 minutes ago, spygirl said:

 

Migrants who had been denied leave to remain were found to have exaggerated their earnings on applications to the Home Office when the figures were checked against their tax records.

In almost 90 per cent of the cases reviewed, the applicants had amended their records with HM Revenue & Customs by increasing their earnings by more than £10,000, Caroline Nokes told MPs.'

(Something extra about not declaring all their income too).

I bet its loads of Ozzies/Kimiws not declaring their bar tips ....

 

The thing is mad.  There is absolutely no need to ask applicants their income.  Just their NI number -- Gov has the rest of the info.

Actually -- I've changed my mind.  Ask them the info, then check against HMRC -- if the numbers don't match then they're automatically out due to not taking official documentation seriously enough (what else are they lying about -- criminal record, academic achievement, employment history, etc, etc)

10 minutes ago, billfunk said:

This silly "highly-skilled" nonsense again. The country shouldn't care about their skill level but rather whether they are fiscally positive or not. A single immigrant worker should have to earn £35K. A worker with a partner and two kids £60k.

I would question just how "highly-skilled" they are if they do not fit these criteria (the average wage in London being low £40K).

Maybe if the companies employing these "highly-skilled" people but paying less than £35K should be forced to either raise the wage so that it is at least fiscally neutral, or, even better use their capital appropriately to train their own "highly-skilled" people from the millions of young people already in this country desperate for a future.

I think that is a fair point -- Set the bar at the point that there is an obvious net benefit.   If there is to be a list it should be something like 'skills that are in demand but for some reason aren't paid well and that we can't seem to home-grow'.   I'm not sure what should be on that list, but I'm content to accept that there might be some things on it.

Edited by dgul

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35k limit for a single migrant, under 30.

Let people in epople in. Let them work a bit, get some experience.

But dont give them ILR - just give them 5 year visaas FFS.

And dont let in families for fuck sake.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, dgul said:

 

The thing is mad.  There is absolutely no need to ask applicants their income.  Just their NI number -- Gov has the rest of the info.

Actually -- I've changed my mind.  Ask them the info, then check against HMRC -- if the numbers don't match then they're automatically out due to not taking official documentation seriously enough.

I think that is a fair point -- Set the bar at the point that there is an obvious net benefit.   If there is to be a list it should be something like 'skills that are in demand but for some reason aren't paid well and that we can't seem to home-grow'.   I'm not sure what should be on that list, but I'm content to accept that there might be some things on it.

I am genuinely interested now. Can anyone name a highly skilled job where we have a labour shortage, that pays less than £35K and which the UK does not have the infrastructure to train themselves?

Edited by billfunk

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3 minutes ago, billfunk said:

I am genuinely interested now. Can anyone name a highly skilled job where we have a labour shortage, that pays less than £35K and which the UK does not have the infrastructure to train themselves?

Thai hooker?

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Just now, billfunk said:

I am genuinely interested now. Can anyone name a highly skilled job where we have a labour shortage, that pays less than £35K and which the UK does not have the infrastructure to train themselves?

Dunno. But I accept that there is more to life that high paying jobs.  Just that there isn't going to be many places on the 'alternative' list.   Ie, once the first Damascus Steel artisan comes to the UK to start a new life making decorative swords for export, you don't need any more of them.

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14 minutes ago, dgul said:

 

The thing is mad.  There is absolutely no need to ask applicants their income.  Just their NI number -- Gov has the rest of the info.

Actually -- I've changed my mind.  Ask them the info, then check against HMRC -- if the numbers don't match then they're automatically out due to not taking official documentation seriously enough (what else are they lying about -- criminal record, academic achievement, employment history, etc, etc)

I think that is a fair point -- Set the bar at the point that there is an obvious net benefit.   If there is to be a list it should be something like 'skills that are in demand but for some reason aren't paid well and that we can't seem to home-grow'.   I'm not sure what should be on that list, but I'm content to accept that there might be some things on it.

Scientists?

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11 minutes ago, twocents said:

Scientists?

Very good. 

We live in a country where the remuneration for scientists makes them barely fiscally neutral. A poor indictment on us all.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, billfunk said:

Very good. 

We live in a country where the remuneration for scientists makes them barely fiscally neutral. A poor indictment on us all.

I would say an indictment of successive governments' lies going back at least to Wilson's White Heat of Technology and likely way back beyond that as well. 

I don't accept one iota of blame for it.

Edited by twocents

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2 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

Retired, amateur boxer, homeless and unemployed. Just the sort of talent this country needs I would have thought.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/14/boxing-champion-awaits-deportation-after-fighting-for-england-six-times

' Kelvin Fawaz, London’s current middleweight boxing champion, has been in the UK for 15 years, since he was a child. He is a gifted amateur boxer whom Team GB wanted to represent Britain in the 2012 and 2016 Olympics, writing twice to the Home Office on his behalf. '

' Fawaz, 29, has been trying to establish his nationality since the period of discretionary leave he was granted as a child expired when he turned 18. He has repeatedly written to the high commissions in Nigeria as well as Benin and Lebanon, the birthplaces of his parents. '

He was granted leave to remain as a teenager.

He owuld have needed his own passprt to come to the UK.

He should have left when he was 18, 4 years after he arrived.

 

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22 minutes ago, billfunk said:

Very good. 

We live in a country where the remuneration for scientists makes them barely fiscally neutral. A poor indictment on us all.

Indeed, I rememeber back in the late 60s meeting a guy who had just done a science PhD and he was about to start work on some salary that even I, as a schoolboy, realise could not possibly support anyone.

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43 minutes ago, spygirl said:

' Kelvin Fawaz, London’s current middleweight boxing champion, has been in the UK for 15 years, since he was a child. He is a gifted amateur boxer whom Team GB wanted to represent Britain in the 2012 and 2016 Olympics, writing twice to the Home Office on his behalf. '

' Fawaz, 29, has been trying to establish his nationality since the period of discretionary leave he was granted as a child expired when he turned 18. He has repeatedly written to the high commissions in Nigeria as well as Benin and Lebanon, the birthplaces of his parents. '

He was granted leave to remain as a teenager.

He owuld have needed his own passprt to come to the UK.

He should have left when he was 18, 4 years after he arrived.

 

I'll report back in 12 years on Fawaz's progress. 150,000 illegals are added each year, 10,000 are removed.

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38 minutes ago, spygirl said:

' Kelvin Fawaz, London’s current middleweight boxing champion, has been in the UK for 15 years, since he was a child. He is a gifted amateur boxer whom Team GB wanted to represent Britain in the 2012 and 2016 Olympics, writing twice to the Home Office on his behalf. '

' Fawaz, 29, has been trying to establish his nationality since the period of discretionary leave he was granted as a child expired when he turned 18. He has repeatedly written to the high commissions in Nigeria as well as Benin and Lebanon, the birthplaces of his parents. '

He was granted leave to remain as a teenager.

He owuld have needed his own passprt to come to the UK.

He should have left when he was 18, 4 years after he arrived.

 

Although:

"Some of the biggest names in boxing have repeatedly appealed to the Home Office. Frank Warren, the English boxing manager and promoter, wrote to the Home Office in 2014 praising Fawaz’s “exceptional talent” and offering him a three-year contract during which he guaranteed he would “comfortably gross” at least £230,000."

and

"“This is a guy who should be earning millions and he’s cleaning my gym for food and a roof,” said Ali. “He’s not even asking the Home Office for nationality: he just wants a work permit so he can earn a living. He could be a world champion but he’s sitting in a cell with his life disappearing.”

 

It is one of these exceptional cases that has been handled badly and gives the left a pretext to say that all immigration control is wrong. A bit like the Windrush scandal where home office bureaucrats accidentally-on-purpose looked to deport people who had been here for decades and who should, by the dictates of common sense, have been naturalised citizens by now. It was a false flag operation in my eyes. Deliberately perpetrated by the common purpose stasi in order to discredit the notion of fair border controls. 

To my mind, it sounds like the bloke should have been given a series of temporary visas with checks made as to his professional earnings.

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Every migration policy in history has promised 'highly skilled' or 'only the best'

Read through every tory or labour election manifesto. No govt ever says 'we'll let anyone in'

 

Unfortunately highly skilled and from africa or asia more often than not means some degree mill university in Nairobi that will pass anyone, once the backhander has been paid. 

Only foreigners trained in accredited western universities should even be considered.

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1 minute ago, PatronizingGit said:

Even Canada, which has more skills focused policy than anywhere, is predicted to have a falling GDP per capita over the next decade. Australia, now over 30% immigrant, has seen real wages follow pretty much the average for the developed world. In the UK, even the most pro-migrant studies suggest *perhaps* a net benefit of £1 billion a year. Or £15 per household. ie, negligible. 

 

Any cultural arguments for immigration were lost long ago, so they focus on the economic ones, which are, IMO, at best marginal and in no way compensate for the vast array of intolerable social conditions created by the immigrants, or the increasingly totalitarian laws required to prevent tensions form boiling over.

 

IMO, immigration should be permitted for marriage only. Where an individual to individual bond is formed. It should never be an economic policy. Humans are not identical economic units but socially, cultural and genetically different, and should be treated as such. 

The only immigration policy aside from that I could support is one of encouraged deportation/repatriation.

Exactly.

The question asked on the Brexit thread was "How many immigrants is enough - 10 million, 20 million or 100 million?" to which there was no direct answer (there never is). I suggested reformulating the question as "At what level would the average wage have to drop to before immigration is no longer required?" which wasn't answered either but goes to the heart of the neoliberal view of immigration.

Anyone working class (80% of the population) who can't see this is a mug in my eyes.

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10 minutes ago, PatronizingGit said:

Even Canada, which has more skills focused policy than anywhere, is predicted to have a falling GDP per capita over the next decade. Australia, now over 30% immigrant, has seen real wages follow pretty much the average for the developed world. In the UK, even the most pro-migrant studies suggest *perhaps* a net benefit of £1 billion a capita. Or £15 per household. ie, negligible. 

 

Any cultural arguments for immigration were lost long ago, so they focus on the economic ones, which are, IMO, at best marginal and in no way compensate for the vast array of intolerable social conditions created by the immigrants, or the increasingly totalitarian laws required to prevent tensions form boiling over.

 

IMO, immigration should be permitted for marriage only. Where an individual to individual bond is formed. It should never be an economic policy. Humans are not identical economic units but socially, cultural and genetically different, and should be treated as such. 

The only immigration policy aside from that I could support is one of encouraged deportation/repatriation.

No.  The obvious outcome is that people get married in order to immigrate.

 

A fair marriage immigration policy would be:

 

On the day of your wedding, a random number is drawn.  Odd, you both have the right to stay in the UK.  Even, you both lose the right to stay in the UK.

 

That would sort out the true loves from the economic migrants pretty fast.....

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1 minute ago, billfunk said:

Exactly.

The question asked on the Brexit thread was "How many immigrants is enough - 10 million, 20 million or 100 million?" to which there was no direct answer (there never is). I suggested reformulating the question as "At what level would the average wage have to drop to before immigration is no longer required?" which wasn't answered either but goes to the heart of the neoliberal view of immigration.

Anyone working class (80% of the population) who can't see this is a mug in my eyes.

Yup.

Im not saying its pivotal to wages, but all the evidence suggests that immigration benefits the existing population economically, if at all

UK, has, since 2007 had net immigration running about twice the level of France...has it saved us from an economy run by bankster parasites? Nope. If anything its rescued it with more debt slaves, more bidders for the rent seekers...

160727-wage-change.jpg?w=656

 

Oxford Migration observatory suggests a small (ie 1%) compression of working class wages, and a similarly small boost to upper class wages, probably through cheaper cleaners and so forth. Any benefit however would surely be wiped out and then some by all the ignored costs. The reputed 20% increase in housing costs, the traffic costs etc. 

 

If there was a clear illustration that letting in large numbers doubled per capita GDP or something, then, if there were no social issues, it might be something to consider. The fact that the economic 'benefit' is marginal at best, and there are massive social costs...its not even worth discussing. 

 

I think there are commonsense policies we could have. As i say, marriage visas are fine...government certainly shouldnt be telling people who they can and cant marry. Perhaps a reciprocal arrangement with countries that accept large amounts of brits (ie with Australia)  and indeed a guestworker program for those roles that really cannot be filled by local labour. But importing cleaners, who will, if they get ill, or have kids, suddenly become a net cost to the taxpayer, but for whom the British minimum wage affords them a middle class life in the Phillipines or wherever they originate, is madness. Its the conscious importation of people who are poorer than average, thus brings the average down. 

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