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MrXxx

Gold (and PM) in all its forms

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Hi Folks,

thought I would start a new thread rather than 'muddy' the excellent one by DB.

I have a couple of question of those more experienced on this forum..so her goes:

1. Anyone have experience of the Royal Mint 'Signature series..seems to me very much like Bullion Vaults offering except you can buy smaller fractions/investments.

2. Ditto for RM RMG....this looks like an inhouse ETF.

3. Peoples thoughts on actually holding the real stuff vs backed ETF's (actually ETC's)?

My views here is that if you hold the real stuff you have a number of disadvantages (wider spread, storage cost/risk) that erode some of your gains VS the disadvantages of ETC's (the intermediary holder of even the ETC provider can default on you [counterparty risk?)...with the advantages for the former being 'security' in hand VS the latter a lot easier/cheaper to trade.

Thoughts? 

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1 hour ago, MrXxx said:

Hi Folks,

thought I would start a new thread rather than 'muddy' the excellent one by DB.

I have a couple of question of those more experienced on this forum..so her goes:

1. Anyone have experience of the Royal Mint 'Signature series..seems to me very much like Bullion Vaults offering except you can buy smaller fractions/investments.

2. Ditto for RM RMG....this looks like an inhouse ETF.

3. Peoples thoughts on actually holding the real stuff vs backed ETF's (actually ETC's)?

My views here is that if you hold the real stuff you have a number of disadvantages (wider spread, storage cost/risk) that erode some of your gains VS the disadvantages of ETC's (the intermediary holder of even the ETC provider can default on you [counterparty risk?)...with the advantages for the former being 'security' in hand VS the latter a lot easier/cheaper to trade.

Thoughts? 

You might want to check out the thread in the "Investing and Money" sub-forum on gold and precious metals, I think that has some useful information in.

I don't have any experience with the Royal Mint but reading the blurb it does sound as you've described. The only differences will be in the costs of holding and where you want to store your PMs - BullionVault has the option of overseas.

I've got a very few gold coins mainly for the novelty value. I like holding them occasionally and for me nothing beats the lovely ringing sound they make when tapped with the end of a pencil!

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If you're collecting for the purpose of a "hobby" - like, say, stamps - you'll want really good condition coins, presumably so as to put them in an album. All mint and shiny.

If, alternatively, you're buying for purely financial reasons - a store of wealth - then circulatory coins (e.g. not mint, not new) have the same metal value as mint ones. It's the same gold and the same weight. These tend to be cheaper.

The exception is some specific head coins (like old sovereigns) which can vary in value based on rarity.

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Don't bother with collecting coins. Stick to bullion - quarter ounce, half ounce and 1 ounce are all good.

 

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3 minutes ago, Errol said:

Don't bother with collecting coins. Stick to bullion - quarter ounce, half ounce and 1 ounce are all good.

 

Are coins not preferable as if they are coin of the realm, then CGT can be avoided?

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30 minutes ago, One percent said:

Are coins not preferable as if they are coin of the realm, then CGT can be avoided?

I think Errol's message read: "Don't but coins for their collection value, buy bullion-grade (i.e. cheapest available) coins". Both can be CGT free.

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1 minute ago, kibuc said:

I think Errol's message read: "Don't but coins for their collection value, buy bullion-grade (i.e. cheapest available) coins". Both can be CGT free.

Ah, cheers, i was reading it as gold bars.  

as an aside, it seems that gold is dropping at the moment, which given all the upheavals in the world seems strange to me

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49 minutes ago, One percent said:

Are coins not preferable as if they are coin of the realm, then CGT can be avoided?

You'll need a lot of gains in a year for that to be an issue.  Moreso if there are two of you.

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4 hours ago, MrXxx said:

Hi Folks,

thought I would start a new thread rather than 'muddy' the excellent one by DB.

I have a couple of question of those more experienced on this forum..so her goes:

1. Anyone have experience of the Royal Mint 'Signature series..seems to me very much like Bullion Vaults offering except you can buy smaller fractions/investments.

2. Ditto for RM RMG....this looks like an inhouse ETF. 

3. Peoples thoughts on actually holding the real stuff vs backed ETF's (actually ETC's)?

My views here is that if you hold the real stuff you have a number of disadvantages (wider spread, storage cost/risk) that erode some of your gains VS the disadvantages of ETC's (the intermediary holder of even the ETC provider can default on you [counterparty risk?)...with the advantages for the former being 'security' in hand VS the latter a lot easier/cheaper to trade.

Thoughts? 

I've never understood the attraction of gold as I rather like a yield, however surely gold's greatest strength is that is the currency of last resort in the event of catastrophic economic collapse. Good luck getting anything for an ETF/mining share in that scenario. If you want to hold gold then it must be physical gold all the way.

 

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53 minutes ago, InLikeFlynn said:

I've never understood the attraction of gold as I rather like a yield, however surely gold's greatest strength is that is the currency of last resort in the event of catastrophic economic collapse. Good luck getting anything for an ETF/mining share in that scenario. If you want to hold gold then it must be physical gold all the way.

 

In the event of the world being on fire and gold buying your family those last remaining seats on the boat/train/plane/shuttle to safety, I think gold-plated tungsten should do fine at a fraction of a cost.

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I have bought some sovereigns over the years just as insurance against (hyper)inflation/currency collapse. If the worst doesn't happen I can always occasionally flog them to top up the pension when I retire or have something that can be passed onto younger relatives when I pop my clogs.

Mostly I see it as a way of safeguarding wealth as they are easy to hide, move and are accepted everywhere.

 

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The transition to DOSBODS is complete.  First the deflation thread was migrated, then Brexit (oh dear), and now PMs.  Hope we stop there and don't get the mindless and nasty millenial v boomer rants, else I'll be off again.

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6 hours ago, MrXxx said:

Hi Folks,

thought I would start a new thread rather than 'muddy' the excellent one by DB.

I have a couple of question of those more experienced on this forum..so her goes:

1. Anyone have experience of the Royal Mint 'Signature series..seems to me very much like Bullion Vaults offering except you can buy smaller fractions/investments.

2. Ditto for RM RMG....this looks like an inhouse ETF.

3. Peoples thoughts on actually holding the real stuff vs backed ETF's (actually ETC's)?

My views here is that if you hold the real stuff you have a number of disadvantages (wider spread, storage cost/risk) that erode some of your gains VS the disadvantages of ETC's (the intermediary holder of even the ETC provider can default on you [counterparty risk?)...with the advantages for the former being 'security' in hand VS the latter a lot easier/cheaper to trade.

Thoughts? 

It partly depends under what circumstances you'd plan to sell it, which is a harder question than it sounds. If you had some Britannias bought for £1000 each, would you sell them if they went to £2000? or £5000? or would you hold on in case they went higher in a hyper inflationary environment? Physical gold is more of a last resort hedge against something really bad happening. As you say, it's not really worth trading due to wide spreads.

A liquid ETF like GLD is good for trading, but in theory carries some counterparty risk ( though that's pretty minimal I'd say).

You could hold both, maybe trading in and out of the GLD depending on price moves, or even short the ETF after a large up-move in the gold price to lock in the higher price, but then you're having to time the market, which isn't easy. I've been trading for years and I'm still terrible at it picking time/direction of short term moves.

Or you could sell options against the GLD ETF to effectively create a "yield" on your gold - maybe 5-10% per year, or lower the cost basis on the gold you plan to buy in the future. Personally I like this approach, though it means if gold shoots up VERY quickly, I'd miss out on the gain in the short term.  I just figure that since I probably wouldn't sell my small gold holding quickly in the case of a rapid move, I might as well generate a "yield" from it.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, No Duff said:

nasty millenial v boomer rants

Always felt this is what the bankers, politicians and central bankers wanted.... People placing the blame onto other people. 

Edited by UnconventionalWisdom

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, UnconventionalWisdom said:

Always felt this is what the bankers, politicians and central bankers wanted.... People placing the blame onto other people. 

Me too.  100%.  Worse, it seemed organised.  And the guy wishing granny died of hypo during the winter did it for me.

Back to gold.  Gotta love it in all forms.  My motto - buy gold, plus a little silver if you feel adventureous!

Edited by No Duff

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My problem with physical gold is that I get attached to it emotionally. I've got my first gold coin earlier this year, one of the Queens Beasts, and even though it was meant as an investment, now I cannot see myself ever selling it. There''s something magnetic about that little beauty.

Maybe it's about the perceived rarity of it, as I also have 1k worth of silver Britannias and don't feel anywhere near the same level of connection. Maybe if I had 30 of those shiny yellow pucks I'd be able to treat them purely as an investment as well?

I had no problems moving 10Ks worth of gold and silver in bullionvalut this way and that as those were just numbers on the screen, but physical gold has got me hooked.

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Those are absolutely stunning! For some reason, ATS bullion sells them in a 30g variant instead of a full troy oz, though.

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