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Frank Hovis

Pensions, SIPP, Tax Avoidance

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There is a series of posts on this buried for some reason (i'm blaming Joe) at the foot of the DOSBODS thread in OT so I'm copying them onto a new thread as suggested:

JoeDavola

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17 hours ago, Austin Allegro said:

I used my savings to buy a house, and oddly enough, worked out that my bare minimum to get by would be £600 a month as well. I suspect that's about the bottom level for a single man who lives frugally but not to the extent of rummaging in bins etc. 

I've not sat and worked it out, would be an interesting calculation to do. Although I have no desire to give up work for the foreseeable.

I don't own a car which brings my monthly total down a good bit.

Found out earlier that two of my colleagues in their 50's are actually putting almost half their wages every month into a pension (with the wee tax boost) to ensure that they can retire when they're 60. They seem to think they'll struggle mortgage-free on only a grand a month pension; I reckon I'd be perfectly happy with that but I'm maybe under estimating what it costs to actually maintain a house and car.

One of them told me that apparently when you hit the 40% tax bracket, you get pension relief of 40% on everything that you put into a pension, e.g. if you earn 50K and put 20K in you get 40% relief on the full 20K...can anyone confirm if that's correct or not?

 

Napoleon Dynamite

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16 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

One of them told me that apparently when you hit the 40% tax bracket, you get pension relief of 40% on everything that you put into a pension, e.g. if you earn 50K and put 20K in you get 40% relief on the full 20K...can anyone confirm if that's correct or not?

Almost correct, but hard to explain.  Not the full 20K, only on what would've attracted 40% tax.

If you salary sacrifice it goes straight into your pension pot and postpones the tax and may well attract a lower level of taxation later.

If you earn 50K,  you could salary sacrifice 3650 of that into a pension taking your taxable gross down to 46350 and avoiding any higher rate tax.  Instead of 2190 net, you get 3650 into a pension pot.

It's a no brainer if you can afford it, and the earlier you do it the better thanks to the magic of compounding (and the asset inflating policies of the last 10 years).

Stick different values in here (theres a salary sacrifice option) to see different possibilities and amounts of take home.

https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php

 

Frank Hovis

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16 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

I've not sat and worked it out, would be an interesting calculation to do. Although I have no desire to give up work for the foreseeable.

I don't own a car which brings my monthly total down a good bit.

Found out earlier that two of my colleagues in their 50's are actually putting almost half their wages every month into a pension (with the wee tax boost) to ensure that they can retire when they're 60. They seem to think they'll struggle mortgage-free on only a grand a month pension; I reckon I'd be perfectly happy with that but I'm maybe under estimating what it costs to actually maintain a house and car.

One of them told me that apparently when you hit the 40% tax bracket, you get pension relief of 40% on everything that you put into a pension, e.g. if you earn 50K and put 20K in you get 40% relief on the full 20K...can anyone confirm if that's correct or not?

A thousand a month is plenty for maintaining house car and decent life IMO; but that is as a single bloke.  I wouldn't close off other avenues yet.

They're wrong on SIPPs.  The tax relief works slightly oddly.  If you want to put in say £30k you actually put in £24k and the government a few months later deposits the £6k.  What it also does is move your 40% tax band up £30k so instead of paying 40% tax at £11,850 + £34,500 = £46,350 you are now paying it at £76,350.

So when you put it on your tax return you get the additional 20% (taking it to 40%) but only, because of the movement of the tax bands, on the amount on which you have paid 40% via PAYE in the first place.

But, and here's the fun bit if you're an incredibly tedious accountant like myself, the initial 20% "relief" is not actually your tax being repaid.  It is a freebie from the government.

Which means that you can now get relief on the remaining 20% that you've paid - and remember that the 20% band now, for you, stands at £34,500 + £30,000 = £64,500 (on top of your £11,850 personal allowance) by doing as I do - contributing into a VCT which provides relief at 30% and does actually give you your tax back.

 

Simple no?

I jest but the net result if you're on, say, £60k and pay currently £6,900 basic rate tax and £5,000 (roughly) higher rate then you will get back if you pay £24k net SIPP and £30k VCT:

£6k on SIPP contribution

£2,500 on Higher Rate return on SIPP

£9,000 on VCT (could be £9,400 if you out more in)

A total of £17,500 in tax relief.  And you only paid £11,900 in the first place.

 

Yes it's difficult, yes it's complicated.  But you end up paying minus £6k a year in tax.

Which is nice.

The big hurdle is that you require the free cash ( in this case £54k a year) to be able to do this in the first place which stops most people.

I'm at the stage where my VCT dividends (entirely tax free) are running at over £8k a year so that pays a decent chunk of it and you of vourse have your previous years' tax releif coming back to you in the form of cash, in this case £11,500 (you get the £6k in your SIPP rather than as cash).  So if those were my figures (they're nto far off tbh) then of the £54k I'm getting £19.5k cash and so having to find £34.5k and not £54k.

I would rather be putting more into an ISA than a SIPP tbh but that tax relief is astonishing.

Frank Hovis

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2 hours ago, Napoleon Dynamite said:

I'm not fully following this yet, but understand there's a lot of new useful information for me.

It's worthy of a thread of it's own though.

 

 

As a finance person I work with qualified accountants and they don't get it so don't worry about not understanding it first time!

The bottom line is that each year I am refunded all of my PAYE income tax plus I get the free £6k for my £24k SIPP (the top limit on the SIPP contribution is £40k but I have a works pension that counts as the equivalent of c. £9k) and to me that's worth the time I put into understanding the system.

The other thing accountants ask when I explain it to them is "Where did you learn this?"; the answer being that I didn't learn it from anywhere I worked it out.

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montecristo

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2 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

As a finance person I work with qualified accountants and they don't get it so don't worry about not understanding it first time!

The bottom line is that each year I am refunded all of my PAYE income tax plus I get the free £6k for my £24k SIPP (the top limit on the SIPP contribution is £40k but I have a works pension that counts as the equivalent of c. £9k) and to me that's worth the time I put into understanding the system.

The other thing accountants ask when I explain it to them is "Where did you learn this?"; the answer being that I didn't learn it from anywhere I worked it out.

Thanks for this great information Frank.  Yes, it is head scratching hearing it for the 1st time but eye opening.

You say:

"The bottom line is that each year I am refunded all of my PAYE income tax plus I get the free £6k for my £24k SIPP"

Does that mean for example if I had £24k cash in the bank each year from my income.  I could put it all in a SIPP and get an extra top up of £6k by the government and PAYE paid refunded?  What is the minimum amount to put into a SIPP to get the £6k?

Yes this needs its own thread.

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Frank Hovis

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2 hours ago, montecristo said:

Thanks for this great information Frank.  Yes, it is head scratching hearing it for the 1st time but eye opening.

You say:

"The bottom line is that each year I am refunded all of my PAYE income tax plus I get the free £6k for my £24k SIPP"

Does that mean for example if I had £24k cash in the bank each year from my income.  I could put it all in a SIPP and get an extra top up of £6k by the government and PAYE paid refunded?  What is the minimum amount to put into a SIPP to get the £6k?

Yes this needs its own thread.

Not quite.

You are putting £30k into your SIPP which means £24k from you and then three months' later the government puts in £6k (as in 20% of the gross, if you were putting in the max £40k it would be £32k and £8k).

What doing this also does is push your 40% band up by £30k so (by filling out a tax return) you will get back the difference between 40% and 20% (coincidentally 20%) on anything now in the lower band which is now £30k higher.

This has the appearance of having given you full tax refund on your PAYE but it hasn't really; it has just given you the cash equivalent with the only actual refund being whatever was taxed at 40% where you are being refunded the additional 20% over basic rate.

So you can still get the rest of your PAYE back (the 20% part) by contributing to a VCT and including that on your tax return.

 

Specifically on the minimum for a SIPP there probably is but if you were only putting in £1k (so £800 cash) you would only get £200.

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montecristo

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

Not quite.

You are putting £30k into your SIPP which means £24k from you and then three months' later the government puts in £6k (as in 20% of the gross, if you were putting in the max £40k it would be £32k and £8k).

What doing this also does is push your 40% band up by £30k so (by filling out a tax return) you will get back the difference between 40% and 20% (coincidentally 20%) on anything now in the lower band which is now £30k higher.

This has the appearance of having given you full tax refund on your PAYE but it hasn't really; it has just given you the cash equivalent with the only actual refund being whatever was taxed at 40% where you are being refunded the additional 20% over basic rate.

So you can still get the rest of your PAYE back (the 20% part) by contributing to a VCT and including that on your tax return.

 

Specifically on the minimum for a SIPP there probably is but if you were only putting in £1k (so £800 cash) you would only get £200.

Thank you for the clarification Frank, it has pointed me in the right direction for researching further in relation SIPP's/VCT etc.  

 

 

 

@JoeDavola

@montecristo

@Napoleon Dynamite

@longtomsilver

Just to let you know I've hoiked them out.

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longtomsilver

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2 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

As a finance person I work with qualified accountants and they don't get it so don't worry about not understanding it first time!

The bottom line is that each year I am refunded all of my PAYE income tax plus I get the free £6k for my £24k SIPP (the top limit on the SIPP contribution is £40k but I have a works pension that counts as the equivalent of c. £9k) and to me that's worth the time I put into understanding the system.

The other thing accountants ask when I explain it to them is "Where did you learn this?"; the answer being that I didn't learn it from anywhere I worked it out.

+1

I had this conversation with the £150k+ MD of a well known brand after it came up at dinner that I was managing exMrsLTS SIPP. Explaining to him if he were to go down this route then not to forget offsetting the rather generous company pension scheme against the £40k limit (5% employee, 8% employer) and this supposedly intelligent individual then tells me he had *opted out as 'pensions were a waste of time'. After a few calculations I told him for every £1 he subsequently got in his net pay he was giving up £3+ of free money. 

*when he told me this I thought to myself what a proper dumb-ass flid and got a right telling off at the hotel from exMrsLTS afterwards as without realising, my inebriated facial expressions carried these thoughts across the table and shouldn't have undermined her boss.

I was one step ahead of another MD and finance director at another company where my wife worked when the numbers stacked up against company car ownership and we took the cash benefit and was flattered when they both followed suit. Giving up their company cars, either to an egotistical sales director or placing in fleet.

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30 minutes ago, longtomsilver said:

+1

I had this conversation with the £150k+ MD of a well known brand after it came up at dinner that I was managing exMrsLTS SIPP. Explaining to him if he were to go down this route then not to forget offsetting the rather generous company pension scheme against the £40k limit (5% employee, 8% employer) and this supposedly intelligent individual then tells me he had *opted out as 'pensions were a waste of time'. After a few calculations I told him for every £1 he subsequently got in his net pay he was giving up £3+ of free money. 

*when he told me this I thought to myself what a proper dumb-ass flid and got a right telling off at the hotel from exMrsLTS afterwards as without realising, my inebriated facial expressions carried these thoughts across the table and shouldn't have undermined her boss.

I was one step ahead of another MD and finance director at another company where my wife worked when the numbers stacked up against company car ownership and we took the cash benefit and was flattered when they both followed suit. Giving up their company cars, either to an egotistical sales director or placing in fleet.

Opted out??  What a buffoon.

Pension schemes are not generally what they were but if you get a good one it's like gold dust.  You don't opt out FFS.

I'm not a 100% fan of SIPPs owing to the restrictions upon taking the money out but in reality that providing me an income (plus the other pensions) would free me up to spend capital that I probably wouldn't otherwise.  I wouldn't want all my assets to be in a SIPP; currently it's about 20% and it wll approach 30% when I retire which is about the level at which I'm comfortable.  I'll take the full 25% tax free out which will bring it down to 22.5% and will then have to decide how much of a tax hit I want to take in drawing thereafter.  Though hopefully either VCTs or something similar will be available at the time which will allow me to avoid tax and run it down more quickly into investments that pay a tax free income.

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I have to admit Frank, when I read your '-6K tax' explanation last night I couldn't actually understand it! But it's still much appreciated; I'm gonna read it again today when I've got a coffee in me and my brain's working!

I think it's safe to say Frank is now the honorary DOSBODS accountant!

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1 hour ago, JoeDavola said:

I have to admit Frank, when I read your '-6K tax' explanation last night I couldn't actually understand it! But it's still much appreciated; I'm gonna read it again today when I've got a coffee in me and my brain's working!

I think it's safe to say Frank is now the honorary DOSBODS accountant!

I have to admit I'm struggling to wrap my head around Franks' explanation too, but I'm not the brightest xD

I'm not in the 40% income tax bracket so it's quite straightforward for me. I make a contribution and then receive 25% uplift (equivalent of 20% income tax on gross), which is paid shortly after. eg £800 monthly contribution receives £200, which would be £1000 pre any income tax. 

I also use the LISA to get an additional 25% back on £4000 per annum (although now looks like the LISA could be scrapped). Plus I opt-in to my companies pension as its some free cash but its the minimum, 3% from me plus 2% from them.

If there are any tips to get some more money back I would welcome the suggestions. I don't really want to put more than a third of my money into a SIPP/Pension because the restrictions and moving goalposts eg age has already been changed to 57. Who knows what might happen in the next 20+ years

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I'm so sick of the way this country spends our taxes, and those in PAYE employment get absolutely shafted,  I'm actually considering going the Universal Credit route, and not paying any income tax at all.

My partner does not work and we have children and live in shared ownership property of which we only pay rent (our mortgage has been payed off) and we have under the allowance of cash savings, but I do have some shares and crypto. As there is no working hour restrictions now with UC, I could increase my contributions into my work pension so that I earn under the tax threshold of £11850. On the entitled to website, with my circumstances I would be eligible to receive £1300 a month in UC and housing benefit, plus I would have my £1k a month salary after pension deductions.

As I control my work pension, I can choose the pension age, so with the massive contributions going in I could retire 10-15 years earlier. Only problem being I don't intend of living in a flat forever in London, but that scenario sure beats being a wage slave for the rest of my life to the government.

 

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Frank - have virtual :Beer: on me for the SIPPS advice.  

Got my first 1200 back through my SIPP which I reinvested. Will get the other 1200 after I put my tax return in. 

Am i right in thinking that thanks to Gordon the Cunt dividends in pensions get taxed at 10% whereas dividends in ISA's are tax free? If so I reckon I should orientate my ISA purchases towards large divi earners and pension shares towards growth. 

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7 minutes ago, Kurt Barlow said:

Frank - have virtual :Beer: on me for the SIPPS advice.  

Got my first 1200 back through my SIPP which I reinvested. Will get the other 1200 after I put my tax return in. 

Am i right in thinking that thanks to Gordon the Cunt dividends in pensions get taxed at 10% whereas dividends in ISA's are tax free? If so I reckon I should orientate my ISA purchases towards large divi earners and pension shares towards growth. 

Nah. None get taxed. Osborne abolished the 10% tax credit.

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Hi Folks,

Looking at my state pension estimate (uk), I note a COPE figure as I was opted out of SERPS prior to 2016 reform. I also have another two estimates, current (Apr 2018) based on my contributions and projected estimate based on reaching full 35 years contributions My question is do I need to take the COPE figure off these estimates or has it been accounted for?...other articles also mention a 2016 starting value (calculation based on the pre/post 2016 transition)but I can't find this on the screen, any idea where it is?

Thanks

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On 04/09/2018 at 08:08, MrXxx said:

Hi Folks,

Looking at my state pension estimate (uk), I note a COPE figure as I was opted out of SERPS prior to 2016 reform. I also have another two estimates, current (Apr 2018) based on my contributions and projected estimate based on reaching full 35 years contributions My question is do I need to take the COPE figure off these estimates or has it been accounted for?...other articles also mention a 2016 starting value (calculation based on the pre/post 2016 transition)but I can't find this on the screen, any idea where it is?

Thanks

Hi MrXxx

I read this as saying that COPE figure is separate; as in they are giving you an estimate for COPE but it is over and above your state pension which is lower than it could be because of the period of being contracted out.  The full state pension is £164.35 per week.

Sorry but I have no idea on the 2016 starting value.

 

Quote

 

How does this affect the amount of State Pension you get?

Your Starting Amount for the new State Pension may be lower than that for people with similar circumstances who were not contracted out.

However, you should bear in mind that you may be able to increase your State Pension by adding further NI qualifying years before you reach your State Pension age.

Find out more about how the new State Pension is calculated

The following sections explain your Contracted Out Pension Equivalent amount.

The Contracted Out Pension Equivalent (COPE)

The pension you get from your workplace or personal pension scheme for the periods you were contracted out, should include an amount that, in most cases, will be the equivalent of the additional State Pension you would have got if you had not been contracted out. This is your Contracted Out Pension Equivalent (COPE) amount.

An estimate of your COPE will be shown if you use the online Check your State Pension service or if you request a State Pension Statement through the post. The COPE amount is based on your National Insurance contribution record up to 5 April 2016 used to calculate your Starting Amount for the new State Pension. The COPE estimate shown in your statement is based on April 2016 State Pension rates.

If you were a member of 2 or more contracted out schemes, the COPE amount shown is based on all your schemes and covers all the years you were contracted out.

We will not know the exact amount your scheme will pay you as a result of contracting-out as it will depend on the actual rules of your private scheme, and possibly any investment choices you may make.

Will my pension scheme(s) pay the COPE amount separately?

In most instances your workplace or personal pension(s) will include an amount that is equivalent to the estimated COPE amount shown in your statement. This is not normally identified specifically but is paid by your pension scheme(s) as part of your total private pension.

The date when you get your workplace or personal pension, and the full amount you receive, will depend on the rules of your scheme(s) and possibly any investment choices you make.

If you are unsure when you will be paid your workplace or personal pension, please contact your scheme to find out. If you are unsure of their contact details, you can use the Pension Tracing Service.

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pension-fact-sheets/contracting-out-and-why-we-may-have-included-a-contracted-out-pension-equivalent-cope-amount-when-you-used-the-online-service

 

 

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Thanks FH,

That's the way I interpreted it....it's no wonder that so many people are so disinterested in pensions when they make their website so unclear/unnecessarily confusing!

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Subject: Business mileage

Description: "You MAY be able to claim tax relief if you use cars, vans, motorcycles or bicycles for work.  This does not include travelling to and from your work, unless it’s a temporary place of work.  How much you can claim depends on whether you’re using a vehicle that you’ve bought or leased with your own money or a vehicle owned or leased by your employer (a company vehicle)".  Note this MAY still apply if your employer pays a rate less than the HRMC "approved amount".

Link:  https://www.litrg.org.uk/tax-guides/employed/employment-benefits-and-expenses/what-if-i-use-my-own-car-business-purposes

Link:  https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/vehicles-you-use-for-work

Edited by Harley

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Subject:  Professional fees and subscriptions

Description:  "Fees and subscriptions to some professional bodies MAY be eligible for tax relief, if membership is necessary to do your job. They have to be on the list approved by HMRC.  You can’t claim back fees or subscriptions for lifetime membership subscriptions and fees or subscriptions you haven’t paid for yourself (e.g. if your employer has paid for them)".

Link:  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/professional-bodies-approved-for-tax-relief-list-3

Link:  https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/professional-fees-and-subscriptions

Edited by Harley

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Suject:  Business trip expenses

Description:  "You MAY be able to claim on reasonable expenses encountered as a result of business trips providing, amongst other things, the expenses are "wholly and exclusively" for the performance of your work duties.  Costs include: public transport costs; overnight accommodation; food and drink; congestion charges and tolls; parking fees; business phone calls, fax and photocopying costs; uniform and equipment.  If these expenses have been reimbursed by your employer, you'll only be able to claim them if the reimbursement was taxed".

Link:  https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/travel-and-overnight-expenses

Edited by Harley

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Subject:  Uniforms, work clothing and tools

Description:  "You MAY be able to claim tax relief on the cost of repairing or replacing small tools you need to do your job (for example, scissors or an electric drill), and the cleaning, repairing or replacing specialist clothing (for example, a uniform or safety boots).  You cannot claim relief on the initial cost of buying small tools or clothing for work".

Link:  https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/uniforms-work-clothing-and-tools

Edited by Harley

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Subject: Working at home

Description:  "You MAY be able to claim tax relief for some of the bills you have to pay because you have to work at home on a regular basis. You cannot claim tax relief if you choose to work from home.  You can only claim for things to do with your work, for example, business telephone calls or the extra cost of gas and electricity for your work area.  You cannot claim for things that you use for both private and business use, for example, rent or broadband access.  Your employer can pay you up to £4 a week (£18 a month) to cover your additional costs if you have to work from home. You will not need to keep any records".  Consider any capital gains tax implications though.

Link:  https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home

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Subject: Buying other equipment

Description: "In most cases you can claim tax relief on the full cost of substantial equipment, for example a computer, you have to buy to do your work. This is because it qualifies for a type of capital allowance called annual investment allowance. You cannot claim capital allowances for cars, motorcycles or bicycles you use for work, but you may be able to claim for business mileage and fuel costs. You claim in a different way for small items that’ll last less than 2 years, such as uniforms and tools".  Maybe should say "may" rather than "can".

Link:  https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/buying-other-equipment

Edited by Harley

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Would I be correct about the following:

- Investment fund has two versions - income and accumulation

- Assuming both outside a tax wrapper (e.g. ISA or SIPP).

- Income from income version subject to income (investment) tax

- Accumulation fund subject to capital gains tax on sale (assuming above the annual CGT allowance, etc else zero)

Or are there gotchas, like the accumulation version pays less, higher risk as all re-invested, not suitable if I want a steady stream of income, etc?

Edited by Harley

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Subject: Pension recycling rules

Description:  Sounds complicated and possibly very costly if the rules are broken!  Deffo a case for proper and regulated financial advice.

Link:  https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/about-pensions/saving-into-a-pension/pensions-and-tax/pension-lump-sum-recycling

Link:  https://www.scottishwidows.co.uk/Extranet/Literature/Doc/FP0621

Edited by Harley

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Question regarding DB pensions and LTA...how do the pension providers calculate the total value of a DB pension I.e. is it the annual pension on retirement multiplied by the average life expectancy after retirement AND if this is the case how do they account for the yearly inflation related increases?

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