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One percent

Rights: relative or absolute?

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Ok, first off, thanks to @DTMark for the title.  Got me thinking and also this article from the DM today

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6084937/SARAH-VINE-rights-one-transgender-pupil-trump-rest-schools-students.html

After I wrote about the madness of gender-neutral toilets in last week's Mail, I received a truly extraordinary email.

It was from a woman whose daughter is around the same age as my own (15/16) and who, like her, attends an all-girls' school in a busy metropolitan area.

The end of the summer term had, she explained, seen the school welcome a new girl who, it quickly transpired, was not only a rather troubled individual with a history of self-harm and drug use, but also biologically male.

This child, now self-identifying as female, was to be treated as a girl, according to their wishes, and in all aspects of school life allowed access to female-only areas, including loos and changing rooms.

Not only did the pupils and staff have no say in the matter — the decision had been taken by the school's senior leadership team — any suggestion that there might be anything even vaguely untoward about this arrangement was met with deep disapproval and, of course, accusations of discrimination.

what of the rights of an entire year group of teenage girls not to be watched by someone who is biologically a member of the opposite sex in the changing rooms? 

Do they really not matter at all?  (My bold) 

The highlighted bit is the important bit imho.  This isn’t just about gender identity but goes much wider and occurs whenever anyone screams, “but I’m entitled “. Culture, ethnicity, disability, benefits, every aspect of life.  Even down to subsidised utilities, free housing, free medical care, free disability cars. There is always a balance.  Someone gains, someone else loses through having to pay that little bit more, having a service cut to pay for it, or seeing their pension disappear in a poof of smoke. 

Back to the original article, we talk about cultural appropriation, we’ll I feel offended (I really do) and disturbed by this as I see it as appropriation of my sex.  We have had the discussion but essentially sex is the biological stuff.  Are you born with male or female reproductive organs?  That determines your sex.  

Then how you behave, the societal norms, those are the gender bits, the social construction of male and female. 

I have no issue with the gender thing but the biology?  You cannot change your sex, it goes right down into your dna. 

Yet, if some bloke decides to wear a frock, I may well find him in changing rooms, in toilets and other places I just do not want to find a bloke.  Where are my rights to object to this?  Why is my freedom curtailed because some bloke decides they want to identify as a woman?  Fine if that’s what he wants to do, but as long as it doesn’t impinge negatively on others. 

It is this that the establishment does not grasp.  Instead of saying PPE, they would be better served by reading some philosophy, this has been thrashed out centuries ago. 

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6 minutes ago, One percent said:

Ok, first off, thanks to @DTMark for the title.  Got me thinking and also this article from the DM today

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6084937/SARAH-VINE-rights-one-transgender-pupil-trump-rest-schools-students.html

After I wrote about the madness of gender-neutral toilets in last week's Mail, I received a truly extraordinary email.

It was from a woman whose daughter is around the same age as my own (15/16) and who, like her, attends an all-girls' school in a busy metropolitan area.

The end of the summer term had, she explained, seen the school welcome a new girl who, it quickly transpired, was not only a rather troubled individual with a history of self-harm and drug use, but also biologically male.

This child, now self-identifying as female, was to be treated as a girl, according to their wishes, and in all aspects of school life allowed access to female-only areas, including loos and changing rooms.

Not only did the pupils and staff have no say in the matter — the decision had been taken by the school's senior leadership team — any suggestion that there might be anything even vaguely untoward about this arrangement was met with deep disapproval and, of course, accusations of discrimination.

what of the rights of an entire year group of teenage girls not to be watched by someone who is biologically a member of the opposite sex in the changing rooms? 

Do they really not matter at all?  (My bold) 

The highlighted bit is the important bit imho.  This isn’t just about gender identity but goes much wider and occurs whenever anyone screams, “but I’m entitled “. Culture, ethnicity, disability, benefits, every aspect of life.  Even down to subsidised utilities, free housing, free medical care, free disability cars. There is always a balance.  Someone gains, someone else loses through having to pay that little bit more, having a service cut to pay for it, or seeing their pension disappear in a poof of smoke. 

Back to the original article, we talk about cultural appropriation, we’ll I feel offended (I really do) and disturbed by this as I see it as appropriation of my sex.  We have had the discussion but essentially sex is the biological stuff.  Are you born with male or female reproductive organs?  That determines your sex.  

Then how you behave, the societal norms, those are the gender bits, the social construction of male and female. 

I have no issue with the gender thing but the biology?  You cannot change your sex, it goes right down into your dna. 

Yet, if some bloke decides to wear a frock, I may well find him in changing rooms, in toilets and other places I just do not want to find a bloke.  Where are my rights to object to this?  Why is my freedom curtailed because some bloke decides they want to identify as a woman?  Fine if that’s what he wants to do, but as long as it doesn’t impinge negatively on others. 

It is this that the establishment does not grasp.  Instead of saying PPE, they would be better served by reading some philosophy, this has been thrashed out centuries ago. 

My solution to cope with the entitled

bearded-hermit-rocks-gaze-into-260nw-531

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1 minute ago, spygirl said:

Id be perfect happy for my daughter to get changed with someone with no cocknball.

Agree but not with a cock in a frock. 

There are genuine people who believe they have been born in the wrong body but I think the numbers are incredibly small.  

Anyhow, this debate was meant to be about entitlement in a much wider sense 

Just now, Hopeful said:

You can have it, I'll find another better one

Yeah, but that would go on infinitum, until there were no more rocks available. This is when equality and entitlement kick it, it’s about how the cake is divided and who gets what.  If you can demonstrate entitlement, you get a bigger slice (or should that be crumb?) 

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3 minutes ago, One percent said:

Agree but not with a cock in a frock. 

There are genuine people who believe they have been born in the wrong body but I think the numbers are incredibly small.  

Anyhow, this debate was meant to be about entitlement in a much wider sense 

Yeah, but that would go on infinitum, until there were no more rocks available. This is when equality and entitlement kick it, it’s about how the cake is divided and who gets what.  If you can demonstrate entitlement, you get a bigger slice (or should that be crumb?) 

and that's, why I'm freelance. A big "I'm fucking off completely", is probably coming

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2 minutes ago, One percent said:

It’s also why I don’t work anymore. 

Just hoping my employer doesn’t cotton on. 

Currently sitting in a car dealers reception about to be fleeced £250 for the first service on a motor (warranty - won't get any more done under warranty at main dealer, but first is alwasy worthwhile).

It takes an hour and is just an oil change and a visual inspection. Perfectly capable of doing that myself.

I thought about bringing in a bag of 250 £1 coins and putting 4 coins on the counter every minute.

Fekking rip off

Judging by the number of staff just aimlessly wandering around chatting I could cut costs quite easily

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Most rights are relative. Your right to do something may well imperil someone else in some way.

Modern discourse on things like this is to see oppressors everywhere.

If someone "can't do" a particular thing that they want to this means that they are oppressed. Which then needs shouting about on Twitter. Which is not a debate medium.

On the specific subject of which toilets people ought to use: I have to assume that trans people have always used the one which fits their physical representation. In other words a man dressed as a woman would use the female toilets because to use the male ones would look more strange.

It's so incredibly rare that while this might not have been the "right thing" to do, regardless, nobody ever said much.

This has been challenged and the result of it is that no legislative change will be brought about and people are reminded that the correct toilets to use are those of your biological gender.

Back to oppression again and more shouting in the echo chambers on Twitter.

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2 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

Currently sitting in a car dealers reception about to be fleeced £250 for the first service on a motor (warranty - won't get any more done under warranty at main dealer, but first is alwasy worthwhile).

It takes an hour and is just an oil change and a visual inspection. Perfectly capable of doing that myself.

I thought about bringing in a bag of 250 £1 coins and putting 4 coins on the counter every minute.

Fekking rip off

Judging by the number of staff just aimlessly wandering around chatting I could cut costs quite easily

I thought you drove an old banger. 

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1 minute ago, DTMark said:

Most rights are relative. Your right to do something may well imperil someone else in some way.

Modern discourse on things like this is to see oppressors everywhere.

If someone "can't do" a particular thing that they want to this means that they are oppressed. Which then needs shouting about on Twitter. Which is not a debate medium.

On the specific subject of which toilets people ought to use: I have to assume that trans people have always used the one which fits their physical representation. In other words a man dressed as a woman would use the female toilets because to use the male ones would look more strange.

It's so incredibly rare that while this might not have been the "right thing" to do, regardless, nobody ever said much.

This has been challenged and the result of it is that no legislative change will be brought about and people are reminded that the correct toilets to use are those of your biological gender.

Back to oppression again and more shouting in the echo chambers on Twitter.

I once had a student who was unsure of his gender identity. He dressed as a bloke but had long hair and wore makeup (rather spoilt by him forgetting to shave). He would use the female toilets. It was tolerated by everyone, including the little old ladies who came across him in the loo. This was I think because he was a genuinely nice person and it really was a one-off. 

What worries me is that any bloke (thinking perverts here) could identify as a woman on occasion for the sole purpose of getting into female changing rooms and the like. I think it is already happening in prisons and said bloke then end up sexually assaulting someone or getting someone pregnant. 

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I broadly agree with the sentiments expressed in the OP. However, I believe where we now find ourselves is the logical consequence of the feminist drive to open up all male only spaces (golf clubs etc). By demanding the rights of membership of what were (often) private clubs, the precedent was set that people couldn’t be excluded. Now the ‘safe spaces’ that women have continued to enjoy (womens’ common Rooms at university etc), are being opened up to the transgender cohort, and the women don’t like it.

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7 minutes ago, One percent said:

I thought you drove an old banger. 

I seem to have far too many cars, 3 old bangers FFS

My old 12 yr-old banger is now SORNd for when the GF's 16-yr old banger bites the dust, which I hope it will soon in a non-repairable way as it's not cost effective - but it was her father's -  (WTF is it with women and their emotional attachemnet to vehicles, my mother was the same with a car she inherited?)

Then, the 90 yr-old parents got me to take ownership of their 16 yr-old banger to help them out as they still want to go out in it, which has been nothing but pain as they keep telling me that they have 'given me a car' - it's worth £300 FFS

Last year I had some money to lose and so bought a new truck for the business, which I'll write off over 5 years.

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Just now, One percent said:

I once had a student who was unsure of his gender identity. He dressed as a bloke but had long hair and wore makeup (rather spoilt by him forgetting to shave). He would use the female toilets. It was tolerated by everyone, including the little old ladies who came across him in the loo. This was I think because he was a genuinely nice person and it really was a one-off. 

What worries me is that any bloke (thinking perverts here) could identify as a woman on occasion for the sole purpose of getting into female changing rooms and the like. I think it is already happening in prisons and said bloke then end up sexually assaulting someone or getting someone pregnant. 

Exactly.

Most if not all of the publicised cases seem to involve men who want to be women.

What about the other way around?

Would you really put a woman into a mens prison?

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1 minute ago, DTMark said:

Exactly.

Most if not all of the publicised cases seem to involve men who want to be women.

What about the other way around?

Would you really put a woman into a mens prison?

It'd be fun to watch

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1 minute ago, Hopeful said:

It'd be fun to watch

Reminds me of that scene from the film The Spy Who Loved Me, where IIRC Bond and Major Amasova (female) board an American submarine and the captain suggests "making accomodations" while she's on board.

"You don't need to make any special arrangements for me."
"All the same, I think it might be better if I did."

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23 minutes ago, One percent said:

 

There are genuine people who believe they have been born in the wrong body but I think the numbers are incredibly small.  

 

I disagree.  IMO the numbers are actually quite large.  Maybe a few %age of the male population are affected (though perhaps only to a limited extent).  The difference is that most of the affected individuals (forever -- it isn't a new phenomenon) force themselves into a male pattern (as the alternative isn't possible).  These days medicine offers something which appears to be a solution, which a few poor unfortunates believe, transition, and then (most) have a rest-of-lifetime struggle with the cognitive dissonance of 'being female now' but everyone not really agreeing (and thinking that they're something in between).

Anyway, the point is that even if it is a big problem, that doesn't mean the rights of the few trump the rights of the many.  This is doubly true when it comes to children, who don't appear to have the right to protest in the same way as adults can (or, who can be brainwashed into thinking that something is acceptable when in time they'll realise that it wasn't).

That said, I do think that children are the ones who are genuinely least bothered by this sort of thing.

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19 minutes ago, One percent said:

I once had a student who was unsure of his gender identity. He dressed as a bloke but had long hair and wore makeup (rather spoilt by him forgetting to shave). He would use the female toilets. It was tolerated by everyone, including the little old ladies who came across him in the loo. This was I think because he was a genuinely nice person and it really was a one-off. 

What worries me is that any bloke (thinking perverts here) could identify as a woman on occasion for the sole purpose of getting into female changing rooms and the like. I think it is already happening in prisons and said bloke then end up sexually assaulting someone or getting someone pregnant. 

Why would you choose to use Ladies?

Always a queue as women just mess around yakking.

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22 minutes ago, DTMark said:

Exactly.

Most if not all of the publicised cases seem to involve men who want to be women.

What about the other way around?

Would you really put a woman into a mens prison?

Goood point well made. I don’t think that would end particularly well. 

16 minutes ago, DTMark said:

Reminds me of that scene from the film The Spy Who Loved Me, where IIRC Bond and Major Amasova (female) board an American submarine and the captain suggests "making accomodations" while she's on board.

"You don't need to make any special arrangements for me."
"All the same, I think it might be better if I did."

I prefer the spay who shagged me with Austin powers. Much more fun. 

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I agree with @One percent completely on the transgender issue. Rights are relative, there has to be an element of for "the greater good" Transgender activists will argue they aren't safe in the men's loos or changing rooms - they may not be but they should be addressing male violence as the issue not invading the ladies loos. Most old school trannies have used the ladies loos for ages, they did so unobstrusively and by the tacit consent of women because we don't feel threatened by them. This new breed of "feelz like a woman" with their lady dicks and lady brains are different, if they feel threatened campaign for a third space. There is absolute lunacy in this area at the moment. Girl Guides official guidance is a boy presenting as a girl is allowed to share overnight accommodation with girls and the girl's parents are not allowed to know. 

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