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sleepwello'nights

South Africa Land Reform

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At first sight I consider the expropriation of land from white South Africans to be a bad policy. There seem to be few reasoned arguments in favour of land reform. The arguments I have read essentially are the land was stolen by colonialists and it is fair that it should be returned. 

Putting aside the issue of compensation what arguments are there for the redistribution? 

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Just now, sleepwello'nights said:

At first sight I consider the expropriation of land from white South Africans to be a bad policy. There seem to be few reasoned arguments in favour of land reform. The arguments I have read essentially are the land was stolen by colonialists and it is fair that it should be returned. 

Putting aside the issue of compensation what arguments are there for the redistribution? 

Because whitey is the devil.

 

That is the only argument that they have.  All the other arguments re land ownership are completely false once you actually look at the facts.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, wherebee said:

Because whitey is the devil.

 

That is the only argument that they have.  All the other arguments re land ownership are completely false once you actually look at the facts.

In the UK land can be purchased under a compulsory order. Generally it is for purposes that the government decide are in the public interest. We accept that it is generally acceptable and there are procedures in place to safeguard against abuse.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/571449/booklet1.pdf 

Edited by sleepwello'nights
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

It went so well in Zimbabwe, can't see why anyone would question it.

I remember a story from someone on TOS about a farmer friend in who had his farm "reclaimed".  The 1st thing the new owners did was to sell the brass fixtures on the sprinkler system  for it's scrap value, easy and quick money.  He drove by the farm a few months later and the fields were returning to the desert.

Edited by montecristo

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34 minutes ago, sleepwello'nights said:

At first sight I consider the expropriation of land from white South Africans to be a bad policy. There seem to be few reasoned arguments in favour of land reform. The arguments I have read essentially are the land was stolen by colonialists and it is fair that it should be returned. 

Putting aside the issue of compensation what arguments are there for the redistribution? 

Well, an argument might be that for most of the farms existence it would have been farmed by the labour of the local blacks, with the white people acting merely as the highest management, but taking the lion's share of the proceeds.  Perhaps, if the country had stronger minimum wage laws then the black community could have done more, and faster, to educate and otherwise develop their population.  

There are two arguments against that:

  • The white farmers might not have actually made that much money (most didn't), and so wouldn't have bothered to develop the farm without the available cheap labour and,
  • It only makes sense (for the country) to change ownership onto hands that could continue to strongly manage the land, to maintain productivity and wages for locals, etc.

Given those two aspects, it could be considered that a 'reasonable' thing to do would have been to have one or both of:

  • A reasonable (affordable) tax on farming over a very long period to educate and develop the local population until it could self-sustain without resorting to being cheap labour.
  • A very long term plan to transfer ownership of farms to local cooperative movements, with the intervening time spent educating the locals on advanced (not traditional) farming methods, etc.  This could have been associated with slow transfer of parts of the land as and when the locals had shown sufficient aptitude/capability to take over the running of each incremental piece of land.

However, the current situation is none of the above, and is merely a land grab based on the twin delights of whipped up anger and intense greed from the senior government officials that'll eventually end up with the nicer farms.

Shame, really.  But the place is just too steeped in emotional reactivity for the majority to see what's happening before their eyes.

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tbh, I think whitey did steal the land two hundred years ago. However is the life of modern black Africans better or worse because of it? How far back in time are we expected to seek justice? 

I think black South Africans have to vote how they see fit. However at the same time I think whitey in europe and America etc has to look at how white people are treated when they are a minority and vote accordingly as well. 

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21 minutes ago, montecristo said:

I remember a story from someone on TOS about a farmer friend in who had his farm "reclaimed".  The 1st thing the new owners did was to sell the brass fixtures on the sprinkler system  for it's scrap value, easy and quick money.  He drove by the farm a few months later and the fields were returning to the desert.

That was me, well remembered.

The stories of attacks on farms and farmers is horrendous. The same farmer who had his farm compulsory purchased lost a lot of cattle one night, not just through stealing (they only took a few), but they had systematically gone through the herd and severed the animals Achilles‘ tendons with an axe. No reason. Just being cunts. The farmer had to shoot the lot.

Even back when Jacob Zuma was first elected, a lot of the farmers could see the writing was on the wall with a series of populist and increasingly corrupt politicians waiting in the wings. Many had started making escape plans and where buying farms in Mozambique and Botswana as SA was going down the Zimbabwe route.

Perhaps there was money in farming back in the day, but not now, and not worth the risks. One of them said to me: “do you know how to make a small fortune out of farming? You’ve got to start with a big fortune “

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Captain Cavey said:

That was me, well remembered.

The stories of attacks on farms and farmers is horrendous. The same farmer who had his farm compulsory purchased lost a lot of cattle one night, not just through stealing (they only took a few), but they had systematically gone through the herd and severed the animals Achilles‘ tendons with an axe. No reason. Just being cunts. The farmer had to shoot the lot.

Even back when Jacob Zuma was first elected, a lot of the farmers could see the writing was on the wall with a series of populist and increasingly corrupt politicians waiting in the wings. Many had started making escape plans and where buying farms in Mozambique and Botswana as SA was going down the Zimbabwe route.

Perhaps there was money in farming back in the day, but not now, and not worth the risks. One of them said to me: “do you know how to make a small fortune out of farming? You’ve got to start with a big fortune “

:)

Good to see you made it to dosbods Captain!  Your story made an imprint.

Whatever happen to him?  Is he still there?

Edited by montecristo

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7 minutes ago, montecristo said:

:)

Good to see you made it to dosbods Captain!  Your story made an imprint.

Whatever happen to him?  Is he still there?

Yes he’s still there, but it’s a tough and dangerous life. One of the other farmers I know is trying to sell up and move overseas.

Another guy who ran a small guest house (I talked to him only a couple of times) was recently murdered. They beat /hacked him and he bled to death in front of his wife who was tied up and couldn’t do anything.

Great place, and money isolates you from some of the issues, but it can go medieval very fast if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Whites South Africans made the mistake of thinking they could use black labour to make themselves rich. It worked for a while but the blacks always hated and resented the whites. Even after the end of apartheid, they still hate the whites, except now they have the freedom and the means to exact revenge. It's over for whites in SA, they should accept defeat and leave before they are slaughtered.

To those who think this is hyperbole, go to Twitter and read the comments from thousands upon thousands of black south Africans. They want blood.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, One percent said:

Mostly through the clearings (chilly jocko land) and the enclosure act (England)  and yes, we should be agitating about this. 

Why are we silent on these injustices when the snowflakes give it large about slavery and cultural appropriation?  

long before that. William the bastard stole all the land and over 50% is still in the hands of Norman cunts

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9 hours ago, dgul said:

Well, an argument might be that for most of the farms existence it would have been farmed by the labour of the local blacks, with the white people acting merely as the highest management, but taking the lion's share of the proceeds.  Perhaps, if the country had stronger minimum wage laws then the black community could have done more, and faster, to educate and otherwise develop their population.  

There are two arguments against that:

  • The white farmers might not have actually made that much money (most didn't), and so wouldn't have bothered to develop the farm without the available cheap labour and,
  • It only makes sense (for the country) to change ownership onto hands that could continue to strongly manage the land, to maintain productivity and wages for locals, etc.

Given those two aspects, it could be considered that a 'reasonable' thing to do would have been to have one or both of:

  • A reasonable (affordable) tax on farming over a very long period to educate and develop the local population until it could self-sustain without resorting to being cheap labour.
  • A very long term plan to transfer ownership of farms to local cooperative movements, with the intervening time spent educating the locals on advanced (not traditional) farming methods, etc.  This could have been associated with slow transfer of parts of the land as and when the locals had shown sufficient aptitude/capability to take over the running of each incremental piece of land.

However, the current situation is none of the above, and is merely a land grab based on the twin delights of whipped up anger and intense greed from the senior government officials that'll eventually end up with the nicer farms.

Shame, really.  But the place is just too steeped in emotional reactivity for the majority to see what's happening before their eyes.

It's not in their mindset/culture to plan long term, it's why black africans never plant friut trees, the concept of having to wait a few years to get fruit is not something they can comprehend.

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15 minutes ago, Dave Bloke said:

long before that. William the bastard stole all the land and over 50% is still in the hands of Norman cunts

The rich history of the U.K. with all its appropriation should be used as a tool against the useful idiots and quisling politicians. 

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10 minutes ago, One percent said:

The rich history of the U.K. with all its appropriation should be used as a tool against the useful idiots and quisling politicians. 

Land ownership is a subject which for some reason must never be discussed by any political party in the UK, possibly because a large number of MPs of all parties are VIs on that matter.

No less than 8 sitting London Labour MPs are landlords.

https://londonist.com/2015/07/is-your-mp-a-landlord-in-london

While they waffle on about cultural appropriation what most of them are doing is appropriating money from the pockets of other London residents.

Of course, the way to achieve land reform is not confiscation by crooked politicians as we are seeing in South Africa  but a LVT.

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9 hours ago, whitevanman said:

Whites South Africans made the mistake of thinking they could use black labour to make themselves rich. It worked for a while but the blacks always hated and resented the whites. Even after the end of apartheid, they still hate the whites, except now they have the freedom and the means to exact revenge. It's over for whites in SA, they should accept defeat and leave before they are slaughtered.

To those who think this is hyperbole, go to Twitter and read the comments from thousands upon thousands of black south Africans. They want blood.

 

 

 

Excuse my ignorance but genuine question, how does this approach differ from the North American slaves (for example) is it simply that white Americans genuinely conquered the African settlements for good whereas their equivalents in SA didnt do a good enough job to secure their property once they'd ahem, acquired it ie they went soft?

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Black population of Zimbabwae when whitey got there - less than 1m. Now it's over 20m. So Whitey really was terrible for the blacks

Probably the same figures for SA over the past 100 years

And when whitey got there, the wheel hadn't even been invented, so not sure what the land was being used for. The fruits of the land would never have existed without white people

If they want the land back they can have it, let it sit there and do fuck all. But what they actually want is the land plus whiteys technology

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9 hours ago, Captain Cavey said:

Yes he’s still there, but it’s a tough and dangerous life. One of the other farmers I know is trying to sell up and move overseas.

Another guy who ran a small guest house (I talked to him only a couple of times) was recently murdered. They beat /hacked him and he bled to death in front of his wife who was tied up and couldn’t do anything.

Great place, and money isolates you from some of the issues, but it can go medieval very fast if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I know a few SA's (not farmers) who have fled and come to the UK. Like many others they held out as long as they could but realised where its all going.

For one guy the turning point was when they were carjacked while waiting for the gates to their house to open. WIthout warning they fired a few shots at the car, amazingly no one in the car was hit. They got out of the car and made sure to not look at the attackers (they tend to shoot you if they think you can identify them later), laid down on the floor and gave them the keys. The car was a newish merc and had a start button, the robbers could not work out how to start the car and started to get agitated. He told me that at that point he thought he and his family were going to be shot. Luckily for him, the robbers panicked and ran off. Soon after he sold up and moved his family to the UK.

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9 minutes ago, null; said:

I know a few SA's (not farmers) who have fled and come to the UK. Like many others they held out as long as they could but realised where its all going.

For one guy the turning point was when they were carjacked while waiting for the gates to their house to open. WIthout warning they fired a few shots at the car, amazingly no one in the car was hit. They got out of the car and made sure to not look at the attackers (they tend to shoot you if they think you can identify them later), laid down on the floor and gave them the keys. The car was a newish merc and had a start button, the robbers could not work out how to start the car and started to get agitated. He told me that at that point he thought he and his family were going to be shot. Luckily for him, the robbers panicked and ran off. Soon after he sold up and moved his family to the UK.

Not just cunts, but thick, thick cunts :

maxresdefault.jpg

 

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