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Hammonds attack on the Self Employed


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Seems this Blairite prick is coming after workers again, as opposed to asset holders who have amassed vast wealth in the last 2 decades. Just so the Tory party can spend it on predominantly elderly healthcare.

No danger of spending less elsewhere or realisation when people get taxed too much they work less.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45822650

 

The Treasury is finalising plans to overhaul tax rules which allow self-employed people to avoid paying national insurance contributions.

The move will be targeted at people who set themselves up as private companies to take on work.

the So-Called BBC understands it could be announced in this month's Budget.

The Treasury believes a third of people claiming self-employed status as a "personal service company" are actually full employees and should pay more tax.

It says without reform, high levels of non-compliance with tax rules could cost HM Revenue and Customs, which collects taxes, £1.2bn a year by 2023.

It is now looking at demanding that firms which use personal service company contractors take legal responsibility for ensuring "off-payroll" contractors stick to the tax rules known as IR35.

A similar move in the public sector on "synthetic" self-employed has raised £410m extra in taxes since 2016, HMRC estimates suggest.

Full employees pay higher levels of national insurance compared with the self-employed.

Philip Hammond is under pressure to raise taxes at the Budget following the Prime Minister's pledge of £20bn worth of extra spending on the NHS by 2023.

Personal income tax allowances could be frozen, despite a Tory pledge at the 2017 election that they would rise to £12,500 for lower rate taxpayers and £50,000 for higher rate taxpayers by 2020.

Freezing them could raise up to £2bn a year.

Reform of the IR35 rules would not raise as much, but might be less politically controversial.

Angry reaction

In March 2017, the chancellor failed to gain Parliamentary support for an increase in national insurance contributions from the self-employed and had to abandon the move.

Without a majority in Parliament, the Conservatives know that any major changes on tax might be voted down.

Representatives of the contracting industry are also likely to react with anger at the proposed changes.

They point out that freelancers charge more for their services than they would if they were "employed", so any tax gain would be wiped out, as incomes on which tax is paid would be lower.

It is also argued that the public sector reforms on who enforces the rules have been beset with difficulty.

"The Treasury's claim that it is losing money is based on an ideological flaw and fails to acknowledge the 'freelance premium' that individuals charge for their services, compared to what they earn when they are in full-time employment," said David Chaplin, chief executive of Contractor Calculator which gives advice to self-employed workers.

"That fact alone should blow IR35 out of the water, yet HMRC maintains that individuals are avoiding tax.

"This isn't true. HMRC's own calculations demonstrate that 84% of the perceived tax loss where an individual is engaged via a personal service company results from the hiring organisation not having to pay employer's national insurance.

"Despite this, HMRC continues to suggest that flexible workers are responsible for this perceived shortfall."

The Association of Independent Professionals and the Self Employed (IPSE), agreed with Mr Chaplin.

Its deputy director of policy, Andy Chamberlain, said: "Business groups have been almost unanimous in their view on this issue.

"Businesses will not be ready to implement such a measure in April 2019. If the chancellor does push ahead with this, he will be flying in the face of the very businesses he pledged to support less than two weeks ago at the Conservative Party conference."

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Banned said:

It is now looking at demanding that firms which use personal service company contractors take legal responsibility for ensuring "off-payroll" contractors stick to the tax rules known as IR35.

T*ssers BBC.  Relative works HR in the private sector.  That's already well underway. 

10 minutes ago, Banned said:

The Treasury believes a third of people claiming self-employed status as a "personal service company" are actually full employees and should pay more tax. 

And 100% of the real rich elite with offshore.........are actually UK citizens?

Oh, but can't tax them!

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Some of the reporting on this topic is complete toilet.  Self-employed people by definition do not operate through a Ltd Co.  There's also no such thing as a PSC - no such definition exists in the tax code. Most of the NI that is avoided by working via a PSC is actually avoided by the supposed employer, so "The Treasury is finalising plans to overhaul tax rules which allow self-employed people to avoid paying national insurance contributions" is bollocks.  Your humble one-man band Ltd Co owner will pay 20% on any company profits (which is pretty much 20% of everything invoiced for most contractors), then full PAYE or dividend tax on income extracted from the company bank account.  You don't get sick pay, holidays,  pension contributions, maternity leave - you don't get anything. And you can be sacked tomorrow, without reason.

Disclosure: I work through a Ltd Co, because no company in the industry I work in will not employ me through any other arrangement.

I don't know anyone who would f*ck about operating a Ltd Co if there was an alternative.

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17 hours ago, AnythingWithWheels said:

Some of the reporting on this topic is complete toilet.  Self-employed people by definition do not operate through a Ltd Co.  There's also no such thing as a PSC - no such definition exists in the tax code. Most of the NI that is avoided by working via a PSC is actually avoided by the supposed employer, so "The Treasury is finalising plans to overhaul tax rules which allow self-employed people to avoid paying national insurance contributions" is bollocks.  Your humble one-man band Ltd Co owner will pay 20% on any company profits (which is pretty much 20% of everything invoiced for most contractors), then full PAYE or dividend tax on income extracted from the company bank account.  You don't get sick pay, holidays,  pension contributions, maternity leave - you don't get anything. And you can be sacked tomorrow, without reason.

Disclosure: I work through a Ltd Co, because no company in the industry I work in will not employ me through any other arrangement.

I don't know anyone who would f*ck about operating a Ltd Co if there was an alternative.

Exactly, a lot of these Treasury announcements are just briefings to see how popular/unpopular a proposed change would be if it ever got introduced into law. If Hammond changes the rules drastically after the outcry over this then he's even more idiotic than I thought.

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3 minutes ago, spunko said:

Exactly, a lot of these Treasury announcements are just briefings to see how popular/unpopular a proposed change would be if it ever got introduced into law. If Hammond changes the rules drastically after the outcry over this then he's even more idiotic than I thought.

Not possible I would have thought, unless you have a higher opinion of him than I do 

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All this is is extending the public sector IR35 rules out to the private sector, the rule change being that the client not the contractor is responsible for assessing IR35 and paying any extra tax rather than the contractor. Hence a client is left with two choices - declare the contractor inside and pay them a shit rate to compensate for all the extra tax or declare them outside and business as usual.

Whats generally happens now in the public sector is that they cant staff the projects that declare inside so most projects declare outside (and yes that includes HMRC themselves who currently have lots of contractors that they declare as outside). So  if/when this hits the private sector its going to be business as usually for 90% of contractors.

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Here he is attacking working people who put money into pensions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/12/philip-hammond-says-pensions-tax-relief-eye-wateringlyexpensive/

But its the comment below that sickens me, its as if the money people earn is the Treasury's and they're letting the plebs keep the Treasury's £39 billion per year out of generosity. Fucker ought to try taking that £39 billion and see what the actual sum is when people decide working longer and wiser isn't worth the hassle.

He made clear that pension tax relief, which costs the Treasury £39billion a year, is likely to be cut in a move that will provoke opposition from Tory MPs.

 

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32 minutes ago, Banned said:

Here he is attacking working people who put money into pensions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/12/philip-hammond-says-pensions-tax-relief-eye-wateringlyexpensive/

But its the comment below that sickens me, its as if the money people earn is the Treasury's and they're letting the plebs keep the Treasury's £39 billion per year out of generosity. Fucker ought to try taking that £39 billion and see what the actual sum is when people decide working longer and wiser isn't worth the hassle.

He made clear that pension tax relief, which costs the Treasury £39billion a year, is likely to be cut in a move that will provoke opposition from Tory MPs.

 

Another kick in the bollocks for the young.

No great surprise.

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11 hours ago, spunko said:

Exactly, a lot of these Treasury announcements are just briefings to see how popular/unpopular a proposed change would be if it ever got introduced into law. If Hammond changes the rules drastically after the outcry over this then he's even more idiotic than I thought.

We can’t go on as we are.. money has to come from somewhere! So someone has to pay more! 

From what I see at the moment public services are as low as they can go, council budgets are 49% down.. with 1 council bankrupt and 3 near bankrupt.. (all Tory run councils, probably went on salaries) 

benefits claimants are using foodbanks in higher numbers with universal credit roleout, so they are tapped out.. 

Sell more NHS? 

Raise fuel duty? Beer, fags.. 

raise taxes?

raise national insurance? 

Go after the asset rich?

tax pensions? 

I’m sure I’ve missed loads of taxes they could raise stealthy.. 

But the sums don’t add up, someone has to pay for THIS MESS! THEY CREATED! I did not create it, the government and banks did.. yet my taxes will have to go up to pay for it.. 

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Interesting radio phone in today on universal credits, you get one payment, you decided how you spend it.. 

lady rung in.. 2 kids £1200 a month rent from a scumlord.. 

with unviersal credit she no longer gets.

£1200 rent

working tax credit (not that she worked)

child benefit 

She gets 1 payment of £1400 tax free for all her needs.. it’s not separated and housing is paid at £800 as part of the £1400 payment.. 

she is paying the £1200 rent so only has £200 to feed, cloth, water, gas, electric.. 

no suprise she uses food banks and charities for cloths..

mad what is coming when universal credit is rolled out.. although the rent cap part will effect city centre renters the worst.. 

and of course landlords might get a few empty months without tenants.. unless they are replaced with 20 Eastern European’s sharing as immigration continues unhindered.. 

 

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57 minutes ago, macca said:

Interesting radio phone in today on universal credits, you get one payment, you decided how you spend it.. 

lady rung in.. 2 kids £1200 a month rent from a scumlord.. 

with unviersal credit she no longer gets.

£1200 rent

working tax credit (not that she worked)

child benefit 

She gets 1 payment of £1400 tax free for all her needs.. it’s not separated and housing is paid at £800 as part of the £1400 payment.. 

she is paying the £1200 rent so only has £200 to feed, cloth, water, gas, electric.. 

no suprise she uses food banks and charities for cloths..

mad what is coming when universal credit is rolled out.. although the rent cap part will effect city centre renters the worst.. 

and of course landlords might get a few empty months without tenants.. unless they are replaced with 20 Eastern European’s sharing as immigration continues unhindered.. 

 

The sad thing is, were benefits to be lower, rents would be lower. This is why we have to capture public value for public use: tax land, not labour.

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6 hours ago, macca said:

We can’t go on as we are.. money has to come from somewhere! So someone has to pay more! 

From what I see at the moment public services are as low as they can go, council budgets are 49% down.. with 1 council bankrupt and 3 near bankrupt.. (all Tory run councils, probably went on salaries) 

benefits claimants are using foodbanks in higher numbers with universal credit roleout, so they are tapped out.. 

Sell more NHS? 

Raise fuel duty? Beer, fags.. 

raise taxes?

raise national insurance? 

Go after the asset rich?

tax pensions? 

I’m sure I’ve missed loads of taxes they could raise stealthy.. 

But the sums don’t add up, someone has to pay for THIS MESS! THEY CREATED! I did not create it, the government and banks did.. yet my taxes will have to go up to pay for it.. 

Could lower peoples rent and property buying costs by raising interest rates reverse qe, end io mortgages, bring in s24 for all taxpayers.

Would free up tens of billions per annum.

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From what I read earlier in the week it looked like potentially they are going to lower the annual contribution limit. I don't think that will effect the young too much these days and was likely being abused/used by the already rich. Having said that it is another kick in the teeth to savers and isn't giving us young'uns really much incentive to go on an climb the career ladders!

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1 hour ago, Banned said:

Could lower peoples rent and property buying costs by raising interest rates reverse qe, end io mortgages, bring in s24 for all taxpayers.

Would free up tens of billions per annum.

To me it seems like every financial crisis we have had has revolved around property greed..

Huge sums of money are thrown into the property scam, making millions of people’s lives miserable, just so some can profit from their misery.  

The privatisation of housing is responsible for the biggest black hole in our finances, spending billions of £’s paying private companies/landlords when the housing could be state owned and maintained more cheaply..

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6 hours ago, georgist said:

The sad thing is, were benefits to be lower, rents would be lower. This is why we have to capture public value for public use: tax land, not labour.

I think allot of rent prices are tied into the mortgages the greedy scumlords took out.. 

there are some properties mortgage free but allot of people still have to achieve a minimum rent to cover their costs.. 

The rents went up with the prices as they followed the repayment costs.. 

I hope we see 5% interest rates..  wait and see how much houses are worth then! About 30% less is my guess

If you can’t borrow £400’000 you can’t pay £400’000.. so the price would have to reduce if the owner wanted to sell.. 

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1 hour ago, macca said:

To me it seems like every financial crisis we have had has revolved around property greed..

Huge sums of money are thrown into the property scam, making millions of people’s lives miserable, just so some can profit from their misery.  

The privatisation of housing is responsible for the biggest black hole in our finances, spending billions of £’s paying private companies/landlords when the housing could be state owned and maintained more cheaply..

I believe the opposite alternative is the better option. Land is dirt cheap so people can build houses very cheaply. Thus keep the govt out of the equation as much as possible.

They are the problem and if they own too many houses then the plebs are a political football.

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7 hours ago, macca said:

I think allot of rent prices are tied into the mortgages the greedy scumlords took out.. 

there are some properties mortgage free but allot of people still have to achieve a minimum rent to cover their costs.. 

The rents went up with the prices as they followed the repayment costs.. 

I hope we see 5% interest rates..  wait and see how much houses are worth then! About 30% less is my guess

If you can’t borrow £400’000 you can’t pay £400’000.. so the price would have to reduce if the owner wanted to sell.. 

Disagree. In a situation of shortage of good homes, rents are based on the ability to pay. This is why prices have gone up whilst rents have been more muted. Prices are based on access to credit / ability to pay the interest (and as rates go lower the landlord can service more debt). Rents are based on ability to pay from wages, which have been flat.

Rents (and prices) are absolutely not based on costs + some "fair" profit. If rates go up and landlords presently charging 1500 a month need to get 1800 to cover their costs, if the market cannot bear this price then they will have to lose money. Every month.

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Quite a lot of remote computer jobs are offering payment in bitcoin. As long as you spend BTC in BTC shops or suppliers then its untraceable for sure?

Everyone take remote computer jobs and stick two fingers to the system ? :) Its the way forward.

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Chewing Grass
12 hours ago, Admiral Pepe said:

From what I read earlier in the week it looked like potentially they are going to lower the annual contribution limit

This potentially leaves little chance for people to catch up later on a pension depending on how low he goes.

A 23 year old on the average UK salary of 23500 ish paying 10% of their gross wage into a pension scheme (private) for 45 years will end up with a lump sum of 3x average salary and a pension of 1/4 of their average salary.

Like other posters have said, what is the point of working yourself to exhaustion every week that you spend two days just recovering to repeat the process only to get a fuck-all Aldified retirement when you are too old and too fucked to do anything slightly enjoyable.

Ayn Rand was soo right:-

“When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; when you see that men get rich more easily by graft than by work, and your laws no longer protect you against them, but protect them against you. . . you may know that your society is doomed.” 

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

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sleepwello'nights
10 minutes ago, Chewing Grass said:

 

Ayn Rand was soo right:-

“When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; when you see that men get rich more easily by graft than by work, and your laws no longer protect you against them, but protect them against you. . . you may know that your society is doomed.” 

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

Isn't that what Bliar did as soon as he came into office. Someone remarked he introduced so many new laws it seemed he was trying to criminalise the entire population..

Is it just a coincidence that he came into office at the same time as GW Bush. This was the time when the deep state seemed to gain traction. 

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Bricks & Mortar
On 12/10/2018 at 23:21, Cunning Plan said:

Fucker ought to try taking that £39 billion and see what the actual sum is when people decide working longer and wiser isn't worth the hassle. 

He made clear that pension tax relief, which costs the Treasury £39billion a year, is likely to be cut in a move that will provoke opposition from Tory MPs.

Isn't that how the reflation works?  First, shrink the labour pool.  Then pump up your job supply.

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1 hour ago, Bricks & Mortar said:

Isn't that how the reflation works?  First, shrink the labour pool.  Then pump up your job supply.

Not sure I actually said that either - but then again I do like wine so may have done late one evening. :Beer: 

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On 13/10/2018 at 01:48, macca said:

We can’t go on as we are.. money has to come from somewhere! So someone has to pay more! 

From what I see at the moment public services are as low as they can go, council budgets are 49% down.. with 1 council bankrupt and 3 near bankrupt.. (all Tory run councils, probably went on salaries) 

benefits claimants are using foodbanks in higher numbers with universal credit roleout, so they are tapped out.. 

Sell more NHS? 

Raise fuel duty? Beer, fags.. 

raise taxes?

raise national insurance? 

Go after the asset rich?

tax pensions? 

I’m sure I’ve missed loads of taxes they could raise stealthy.. 

But the sums don’t add up, someone has to pay for THIS MESS! THEY CREATED! I did not create it, the government and banks did.. yet my taxes will have to go up to pay for it.. 

Wooh therr.

Ukgiv takes 51% of gdp.

Plus more, as its running a deficit.

If ukgov cannot fund the crappy services the uk gets on that take then the whole lot needs scrapping and starting again.

Large part of the problem is generous unfunded pensions  which are swalliwing increading parts of spend and not offering any service.

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On 13/10/2018 at 09:49, macca said:

To me it seems like every financial crisis we have had has revolved around property greed..

Huge sums of money are thrown into the property scam, making millions of people’s lives miserable, just so some can profit from their misery.  

The privatisation of housing is responsible for the biggest black hole in our finances, spending billions of £’s paying private companies/landlords when the housing could be state owned and maintained more cheaply..

Narrow in down.

Its befn bank lending to real esrate.

To a certain extent MMR has stopped it dead.

Uks got a few years of adjustment as prices move to income.

Io btl , as an asidr, can hang like the cunts they are.

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