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sarahbell

Climate change and what we eat

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https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/10/huge-reduction-in-meat-eating-essential-to-avoid-climate-breakdown

There should be a few new rules.
1. Eat local.  (If they grow lots of sheep where you live, then eat them)
2. Eat in season. The Spring gap is a bit crap in the UK cos of the lack of stuff that can be grown.  You'll be hungry.
3. Eat less. You won't have any choice.


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There'll be no chick peas, no tofu, no rice.

Stop taking food from the rest of the world. That's how you help the planet.
Stop moving food to areas with no food.

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Just now, One percent said:

4.  Stop moving masses of people around

5. Do something about massive population growth. 


My personal thoughts on population levels are we're too many already and that this is the major problem. Reduce the population to 3m and we can all eat what we want. Probably the corpses of the lost.

There's no way to reduce the population without war or massive disease wiping out huge chunks of the world though. 

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13 minutes ago, sarahbell said:


My personal thoughts on population levels are we're too many already and that this is the major problem. Reduce the population to 3m and we can all eat what we want. Probably the corpses of the lost.

There's no way to reduce the population without war or massive disease wiping out huge chunks of the world though. 

few years of failed crops due to global cooling (sunspots/volcanoes) will leave a lot of people very hungry

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Meat is a funny thing.  Sure, if you raise beef indoors and feed it grain then you might well be better off consuming the grain directly.  But pasture fed animals use land that isn't readily useful for crops (otherwise it would be used for crops -- much better return for less effort).  Welsh lamb, in particular, makes great use of uplands grass that is very difficult to use for anything other than grass -- I suppose you could plant trees on the uplands (carbon positive), but to claim that veg is the replacement is facile.

I certainly think that 'market miles' is important, and has been completely ignored in this analysis.

Also, the fundamental premise is fantastical in missing the point:

Quote

Feeding a world population of 10 billion is possible, but only if we change the way we eat and the way we produce food,”

The solution there is to stop the population from expanding, not changing food production.  

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I also take umbrage at their 'and it's a healthier diet!' that they keep on pushing in the article:

  • Firstly, is this scientifically worked through -- if people live longer on the modified diet what is the consequential impact on the environment (vs dying and then not eating at all). 
  • Secondly, I don't actually believe it -- we've been pushed towards something akin to 'flexitarian' for 40 years and all I've seen is vast numbers of hugely vast and desperately unhealthy people.

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3 minutes ago, dgul said:

Secondly, I don't actually believe it -- we've been pushed towards something akin to 'flexitarian' for 40 years and all I've seen is vast numbers of hugely vast and desperately unhealthy people.

Also wondering about the connection between vegetarians/ vegans and extreme SJWness.

Starting to consider whether these diets produce mental instability in a percentage of humans,

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34 minutes ago, sarahbell said:


My personal thoughts on population levels are we're too many already and that this is the major problem. Reduce the population to 3m and we can all eat what we want. Probably the corpses of the lost.

There's no way to reduce the population without war or massive disease wiping out huge chunks of the world though. 

 

18 minutes ago, ashestoashes said:

few years of failed crops due to global cooling (sunspots/volcanoes) will leave a lot of people very hungry

Agreed that everything we do is an absolute sideshow when the only cause of MMGW that actually matters is the insane level of the human population and yet it is still growing without any checks being put in place.

As per my other posts I think however we need to do precisely nothing.  Oil will start to run out in the 2030s and become eye wateringly expnesive as a consequence, renewables will not be able to replace its versatility as an energy and fertiliser source in the big rural areas that grow most food so food will become scarcer and more expenisve.  Your average peasant farmer will not be able to run a tractor or buy fertiliser.

At each bad harvest, for whatever reason, people will starve and if there is a few years, as per your suggestion, of bad harvest then there will be mass die off.

So what should we do?  Well as nothing we do can stop the population growth the only way anyone can make any realistic difference is to their own future.

Accumulate wealth, ideally untraceable by the government, and buy somewhere with sufficient land to feed you and your family.  And buy a shotgun to protect it.

 

Edited by Frank Hovis

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7 minutes ago, dgul said:

I also take umbrage at their 'and it's a healthier diet!' that they keep on pushing in the article:

  • Firstly, is this scientifically worked through -- if people live longer on the modified diet what is the consequential impact on the environment (vs dying and then not eating at all). 
  • Secondly, I don't actually believe it -- we've been pushed towards something akin to 'flexitarian' for 40 years and all I've seen is vast numbers of hugely vast and desperately unhealthy people.

There are plenty of peer reviewed articles and studies on the benefits of low (vs high) meat consumption, and every major health organisation in the world now recommends a low red meat diet. I know that won't be popular on here with some who advocate eating shit loads of red meat but that's a fact I'm afraid, whether one chooses to believe it or not is another matter.

I haven't been alive for 40 years so I can't comment on your idea that flexitarianism has been pushed on us for that long, but it's obvious that nobody is listening if it is true. Every single boomer I know has to have meat with every meal.

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2 minutes ago, spunko said:

There are plenty of peer reviewed articles and studies on the benefits of low (vs high) meat consumption, and every major health organisation in the world now recommends a low red meat diet. I know that won't be popular on here with some who advocate eating shit loads of red meat but that's a fact I'm afraid, whether one chooses to believe it or not is another matter.

I haven't been alive for 40 years so I can't comment on your idea that flexitarianism has been pushed on us for that long, but it's obvious that nobody is listening if it is true. Every single boomer I know has to have meat with every meal.

I agree with you that a good vegetarian diet is healthier for you than a good omnivore diet but how many people in this country eat a good diet?  10% maybe?

If I had a personal chef who prepared all of my food and ensured that as well as having variety and taste every meal had sufficient protein then I would never eat meat again and not miss it.

I am however in the 90% who would not claim to eat a good diet so for me a vegetarian diet would be a lot less heathy than an omnivore diet as my persoanl experience of trying it demonstrated.

 

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1 minute ago, Frank Hovis said:

I am however in the 90% who would not claim to eat a good diet so for me a vegetarian diet would be a lot less heathy than an omnivore diet as my persoanl experience of trying it demonstrated.

I used to eat a "good vegetarian diet" nearly killed me!

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13 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

At each bad harvest, for whatever reason, people will starve and if there is a few years, as per your suggestion, of bad harvest then there will be mass die off.


We've been sending aid to regions of bad harvest for years. Who'll be sending us money when we starve? 

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2 minutes ago, sarahbell said:


We've been sending aid to regions of bad harvest for years. Who'll be sending us money when we starve? 

Nobody, you need your own.

I'm probably going to move house again so won't start yet but I think that food is insanely cheap at the moment and if you can buy somewhere with secure and sizeable storage space then it may be one of the best investments of them all to start really stockpiling non-perishables.

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10 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I am however in the 90% who would not claim to eat a good diet so for me a vegetarian diet would be a lot less heathy than an omnivore diet as my persoanl experience of trying it demonstrated.

 

I would argue that's because of ignorance around following a vegetarian diet correctly. That isn't your fault, it's the fault of a predominantly meat-centric society where most Brits don't have a clue how to cook a decent vegetarian meal, let alone follow the diet (circles back to dgul's comment about flextiarianism being mainstream for 40 years - really?!). The thing that's changed all that for the younger folk however is the internet - it's now much easier to follow.

Also @sarahbell as a fellow grower of vegetables I feel I should pick you up on your "no tofu" comment, you can grow edamame in the UK (at least in the south - I did it this year) and the fields round here were full of them, as well as linseed. Most of it is used as fodder. You can also grow chickpeas if there are no early frosts.

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Some burd at work was prattling on about this over coffee. Now this is France, virtually a marxist state and I live in SJW central - we even have a marxist ecologist mayor.

Boy did she get a serious bitch slap from one of my colleagues though. She said "I feel sorry for the Africans, they are the poorest and will suffer most and have done nothing, they are innocent". To which a colleague replied "if they developed their shithole countries and stopped having millions of babies maybe they'd be better able to adapt or we would be better able to help". This actually drew agreement from a couple of africans at the table.

Edited by Dave Bloke

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39 minutes ago, spunko said:

Every single boomer I know has to have meat with every meal.

Oh great....yet another cause with which to bash the boomers, although I guess it saves even further comment and analysis of the snowflakes. :)

Seriously though, I've reached my three score-years-and-ten but probably eating the least amount of best prepared and most varied food ever.

I can and do make interesting and tasty vegetarian food, probably 2 to 3 times per week, fish at the same interval plus more and more varied vegetables and salad than in the past.

Red meat features maybe once a week, chicken more often while olive and rapeseed has largely replaced sunflower oil, butter and cream feature more regularly than they did ten years ago and much of the vegetables and salad we eat is grown in a small garden bed.

And all this largely ignoring the never-ending, often conflicting dietary advice but based instead on solid, personal, empirical evidence of what works for us in terms of waistlines and general well-being.

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2 hours ago, sarahbell said:


My personal thoughts on population levels are we're too many already and that this is the major problem. Reduce the population to 3m and we can all eat what we want. Probably the corpses of the lost.

There's no way to reduce the population without war or massive disease wiping out huge chunks of the world though. 

wrong.

 

female education, female emancipation, and free birth control technology drives birth rates down in every country those three things have been present in.  Look at how successful those three policies have been in every single country in the West.

 

Example easy win policies:

  • No foreign aid to any country where women do not have equal rights to men in education, law, and voting (hard for SJWs to oppose)
  • No foreign aid to any country where LBTQ members etc etc (again, hard for SJWs to object to)
  • Food distribution programs MUST be accompanied by birth control implants for females (lasts 3-5 years)

 

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2 hours ago, dgul said:

Meat is a funny thing.  Sure, if you raise beef indoors and feed it grain then you might well be better off consuming the grain directly.  But pasture fed animals use land that isn't readily useful for crops (otherwise it would be used for crops -- much better return for less effort).  Welsh lamb, in particular, makes great use of uplands grass that is very difficult to use for anything other than grass -- I suppose you could plant trees on the uplands (carbon positive), but to claim that veg is the replacement is facile.

I certainly think that 'market miles' is important, and has been completely ignored in this analysis.

Also, the fundamental premise is fantastical in missing the point:

The solution there is to stop the population from expanding, not changing food production.  

I was going to add:

0. Make sure you live somewhere where there are lots of sheep. If you don't, introduce them. 

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3 hours ago, dgul said:

Feeding a world population of 10 billion is possible, but only if we change the way we eat and the way we produce food,” 

and what about a few years later when it's 15B or 20B or 50B?

The longer they leave addressing the real problem, the greater the misery. Also a good argument against democracy, someone's going to need to make some very unpopular decisions, I doubt democracy will survive that.

Start will the relatively simple thing ... control of money, FIAT issued currency needs a forever expanding economy, that needs to be halted.

Edited by snaga

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11 minutes ago, snaga said:

and what about a few years later when it's 15B or 20B or 50B?

The longer they leave addressing the real problem, the greater the misery. Also a good argument against democracy, someone's going to need to make some very unpopular decisions, I doubt democracy will survive that.

Start will the relatively simple thing ... control of money, FIAT issued currency needs a forever expanding economy, that needs to be halted.

Yep, pure can kicking.

As long as the population can expand it will do so.  So buy that V8 you've always wanted and dine off fine steaks every night because doing anything else will just mean that the eventual crisis will be even more apocalyptic.

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2 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

Yep, pure can kicking.

As long as the population can expand it will do so.  So buy that V8 you've always wanted and dine off fine steaks every night because doing anything else will just mean that the eventual crisis will be even more apocalyptic.

Every single environmental initiative of recent times, with perhaps exception of electric engines, does fuck all to help the environment. We in the UK are 0.86% of the global population. Overestimation of one's own impact, a bit like Dunning-Kruger, is rife in environmental circles.

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Global news today and a lead story on the So-Called BBC..cut meat to a burger a week. I'm flexitarian anyway ( only eat  meat imposed on me as a guest etc). For health benefits and enable us to feed 10 billion people apparently.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/16/health/new-diet-to-save-lives-and-planet-health-study-intl/index.html

 

Edited by crashmonitor

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