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Frank Hovis

Glasgow equal pay strike - women's work

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There is a public sector strike going on in Glasgow with the cause being:

Quote

 

The local authority announced in January that it planned to reach a negotiated settlement to thousands of equal pay claims arising from a pay and conditions scheme introduced more than a decade ago.

Campaigners say the scheme led to workers in female-dominated roles such as catering or cleaning receiving up to £3 an hour less than those in male-dominated areas such as refuse collection.

Council services affected by the strike

  • All mainstream primary schools, nurseries and additional support schools closed
  • Secondary schools will remain open but services such as school meals will be affected
  • Home care services - help with washing, getting dressed, meal preparation - face significant disruption
  • Museums, leisure services and libraries will open but cafes and cleaning services could be disrupted

 

  •  

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-45941552

My experience of professional work - accountants, lawyers - is that the job these days  pays based upon effort and merit.  You are as valuable as the work you do.  There may be particular companies where this doesn't apply but my direct experience is that there is zero bias operating.

 

When it comes to these lower paid functional jobs that bias is still IMO very much there.

The comparison between bin men and home care is particularly telling to my mind.  On one level the binman is out at the crack of dawn in all weathers picking up heavy and smelly bin sacks whilst the home carer goes from warm car to warm house.

But if I was going to take a low paid job then I'd actually like being a binman, bit of banter, outdoors, but would really not want to be a home carer.  I would find the emotional drain of dealing with sick and dying people day in day out too much to bear (same reason I didn't want to be a doctor, though that pays much better).

Whereas if you're a woman then sheer physicality means that you would struggle to work on the bins so Hobson's choice of home carer it is.

Similarly I wouldn't want to be a cleaner.

These jobs are however perceived to be easier / of less value because "anybody can do them" when assessed on a physical basis but in practice men do not want to do "emotional" jobs that can mean dealing with distressed people so I would rank these jobs as being as hard and that women are better at them is a simple natural advantage like men being stronger.

So IMHO it should be £3 an hour up.

Exception however for museum, leisure services and libraries.  These are jobs that a lot of people of both sexes would like to do so the argument falls down there.

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1 minute ago, Frank Hovis said:

There is a public sector strike going on

I doubt anyone will notice...

EDIT: Having actually read your post now, you are correct in that some of the lowest paid jobs are the most stressful. I can hardly complain as I am paid to sit and type this.

Edited by JoeDavola

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Why wouldnt a woman be physically strong enough to be a binman, all they do is wheel it along .. its not the 80s where theyre lugging big black bins over their shoulder.

Any woman fancy a job as a welder on an oil rig or at a power plant £4-500 a day for a 12 hour shift, equal pay to the men if they want to be equal. 

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Catering and refuge collection are different jobs. Catering is indoors, warm (pretty important in Scotland) and not all that physically demanding.

Refuge collection is hard work, lots of hazards (needles, dangerous materials that shouldnt go in waste, but do) cold mornings, etc etc.

I can't really believe anyone in the real world would think they should command equal wages.

 

Perhaps the women should become refuge collectors if they want refuge collector rates of pay? Just a thought.

 

And i'll bet not a single politician in Scotland, not least the so called conservative ones, will have the balls to mention any of the above. 

1 minute ago, Banned said:

Why wouldnt a woman be physically strong enough to be a binman, all they do is wheel it along .. its not the 80s where theyre lugging big black bins over their shoulder.

Any woman fancy a job as a welder on an oil rig or at a power plant £4-500 a day for a 12 hour shift, equal pay to the men if they want to be equal. 

They don't want equality, they wan't a free lunch. Same as every human being since the beginning of time.

 

Only now we have governments that seem happy to kowtow rather than be the voice of reason. 

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9 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

I doubt anyone will notice...

EDIT: Having actually read your post now, you are correct in that some of the lowest paid jobs are the most stressful. I can hardly complain as I am paid to sit and type this.

 

I''ve never really understood why train drivers (a not inconsiderable amount of whom are found to be asleep, reading books etc when driving) are paid more than bus drivers (who have to deal with more hazard in a mile of road than 1000 miles of track, who have to act as ticket inspectors, security, basic maintainence, etc etc)

 

Bus drivers get min wage or a little above, train drivers base, £50k often rising to £70-80k not long after...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7019221/train-drivers-salary-become-a-train-driver/

 

One is unionized (and far more of a monopoly to boot) the other aint. 

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4 minutes ago, Banned said:

Why wouldnt a woman be physically strong enough to be a binman, all they do is wheel it along .. its not the 80s where theyre lugging big black bins over their shoulder.

Any woman fancy a job as a welder on an oil rig or at a power plant £4-500 a day for a 12 hour shift, equal pay to the men if they want to be equal. 

In my area it is still the 80s then because that's exactly what they do!

You must live somewhere dead posh with your fancy wheelie bins :P

 

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Just now, PatronizingGit said:

I''ve never really understood why train drivers (a not inconsiderable amount of whom are found to be asleep, reading books etc when driving) are paid more than bus drivers (who have to deal with more hazard in a mile of road than 1000 miles of track, who have to act as ticket inspectors, security, basic maintainence, etc etc)

The train folk have a fucking amazing union. Here in NI anyway.

Big wages for doing not a lot, early retirement, fat pensions.

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Just now, PatronizingGit said:

 

I''ve never really understood why train drivers (a not inconsiderable amount of whom are found to be asleep, reading books etc when driving) are paid more than bus drivers (who have to deal with more hazard in a mile of road than 1000 miles of track, who have to act as ticket inspectors, security, basic maintainence, etc etc)

 

Bus drivers get min wage or a little above, train drivers base, £50k often rising to £70-80k not long after...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7019221/train-drivers-salary-become-a-train-driver/

 

One is unionized (and far more of a monopoly to boot) the other aint. 

I agree and it is unionisation.

The reality should be that the bus drivers should be paid alot more; the train drivers' wages sound astronomical now but all they've really done is kept pace with inflation since the 1970s.

We really had "never had it so good" back then.

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5 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

In my area it is still the 80s then because that's exactly what they do!

You must live somewhere dead posh with your fancy wheelie bins :P

 

England .. which is quite fancy for your average Scot!

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26 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

There is a public sector strike going on in Glasgow with the cause being:

  •  

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-45941552

My experience of professional work - accountants, lawyers - is that the job these days  pays based upon effort and merit.  You are as valuable as the work you do.  There may be particular companies where this doesn't apply but my direct experience is that there is zero bias operating.

 

When it comes to these lower paid functional jobs that bias is still IMO very much there.

The comparison between bin men and home care is particularly telling to my mind.  On one level the binman is out at the crack of dawn in all weathers picking up heavy and smelly bin sacks whilst the home carer goes from warm car to warm house.

But if I was going to take a low paid job then I'd actually like being a binman, bit of banter, outdoors, but would really not want to be a home carer.  I would find the emotional drain of dealing with sick and dying people day in day out too much to bear (same reason I didn't want to be a doctor, though that pays much better).

Whereas if you're a woman then sheer physicality means that you would struggle to work on the bins so Hobson's choice of home carer it is.

Similarly I wouldn't want to be a cleaner.

These jobs are however perceived to be easier / of less value because "anybody can do them" when assessed on a physical basis but in practice men do not want to do "emotional" jobs that can mean dealing with distressed people so I would rank these jobs as being as hard and that women are better at them is a simple natural advantage like men being stronger.

So IMHO it should be £3 an hour up.

Exception however for museum, leisure services and libraries.  These are jobs that a lot of people of both sexes would like to do so the argument falls down there.

I don't know -- as far as I can tell most lowish/normal jobs are paid at the price people are willing to accept for doing the work.  This usually sits uncomfortably with people as they like to think their time has some sort of 'intrinsic value' but it doesn't -- any 'intrinsic value' that your time has is defined only by what the 'next lowest person in the chain' would be willing to accept for doing the job.  The two obvious consequences will be:

  • If you're doing a type of job that someone would do for cheaper than your 'intrinsic value', then you'd better expect to be paid less than you thought.  If there is a gender bias to this then tough -- blame your fellow men/women for their situation rather than the boss for their sexism.
  • If you import a million people who'll do what you offer, but for cheaper, expect to be paid less.  Again, any 'intrinsic value' that you think you offer is irrelevant.

Finally, if you don't like what you do or you are paid too little, quit and get a new job.  If cleaner doesn't pay but binman does, apply for a job as a binman.   Oh, it turns out that it isn't as easy as that -- the jobs aren't trivial to get and they're all horrible.  Not paid enough for doing them?  Blame all the people that'll do it for too little, because if there wasn't anyone that would do it for so little the wages would go up.

I sound as though I've got little sympathy here, and I suppose I sound a little grumpy -- but to me the main problem here is the current fetish of blaming everyone else for life's problems.  Growing up is all about realising that the only person responsible for you is you.  Don't ever dream that you're owed a living, or a job, or a wage or even happiness -- because there's no such deal.  If you live your life blaming others for your failures then you'll forever fail.  Grasp hold of your life and do something about it -- just make sure it's not restricted to moaning about how everyone else has it in for you.

[I consider myself to be blessed as I'm a middle class white straight guy.  As such I'm very much aware that all of the failures in my life -- and there are a fair few -- are my own problem, I'm the only person responsible for solving them and actually making a success of things.  I'd hate to live the life of thinking that every single problem that came my way was because of the bogeyman]

 

Edited by dgul

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The argument they are trying to make is equal worth.

Then the term mainly women jobs and mainly men jobs.

AS logn as both jobs are open to members of either sex then there's no issue with gender pay gaps.

They had a owman TA goign on how she works really hard at her job. Total BS.

She only works ~30/w year, inside. 9am-3pm.

As far a the worth argument goes then the council need to ask people to pay for the services they provide, give them an opt out.

Say ask parents if they think its worh paying ~5/week for a TA in the kids class.

Ask if reseint want their bin picked up, or whetehr prkign a lorry at the end of the street for will suffice.

When I lived in Italy, you walked your bin the last 500m to a communal zone where you chucked in in a a lorry.

If you were an OAP you needed a family member of friendly neighbour to do.

No bin men - just ta lorry driver.

And thats the prpblem - nce you get people to actually put their hands in their pocket and pay for services when they use them - poof! - 50% of the public sector vanishes.

 

 

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My attitude to this situation is simple. Would a woman working on the bins earn the same as a man? Would a man working as a carer earn the same as a woman? If the answer is 'yes' to both of those questions then there is no basis for this strike. Refuse collectors and Carers are not the same job - thus they command different pay levels. All this shows, yet again, is that women tend to go into lower paying jobs  - mainly because they're less physically demanding. Until women start doing the heavy labour like men, they deserve to earn less.

But, of course, I'm now a sexist for pointing this out.

I do sometimes wonder if the Islamification of the west is desperation by TPTB because they now realise what a total fuck up feminism has been.

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4 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

I think some enterprising production company should take up the challenge and have a program called job swap.


The aim could be to show that the bin men wouldn't cope as care assistants. 

:-D
 

Id rather take my chances with wolves than be looked after by 90% of the care assitants Ive met.

Seriously.

Im heding on haivng a robot or easy euthanisa than go ina high needs care home.

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3 minutes ago, dgul said:

I don't know -- as far as I can tell most lowish/normal jobs are paid at the price people are willing to accept for doing the work.  This usually sits uncomfortably with people as they like to think their time has some sort of 'intrinsic value' but it doesn't -- any 'intrinsic value' that your time has is defined only by what the 'next lowest person in the chain' would be willing to accept for doing the job.  The two obvious consequences will be:

  • If you're doing a type of job that someone would do for cheaper than your 'intrinsic value', then you'd better expect to be paid less than you thought.  If there is a gender bias to this then tough -- blame your fellow men/women for their situation rather than the boss for their sexism.
  • If you import a million people who'll do what you offer, but for cheaper, expect to be paid less.  Again, any 'intrinsic value' that you think you offer is irrelevant.

Finally, if you don't like what you do or you are paid too little, quit and get a new job.  If cleaner doesn't pay but binman does, apply for a job as a binman.   Oh, it turns out that it isn't as easy as that -- the jobs aren't trivial to get and they're all horrible.  Not paid enough for doing them?  Blame all the people that'll do it for too little, because if there wasn't anyone that would do it for so little the wages would go up.

I sound as though I've got little sympathy here, and I suppose I sound a little grumpy -- but to me the main problem here is the current fetish of blaming everyone else for life's problems.  Growing up is all about realising that the only person responsible for you is you.  Don't ever dream that you're owed a living, or a job, or a wage or even happiness -- because there's no such deal.  If you live your life blaming others for your failures then you'll forever fail.  Grasp hold of your life and do something about it -- just make sure it's not restricted to moaning about how everyone else has it in for you.

[I consider myself to be blessed as I'm a middle class white straight guy.  As such I'm very much aware that all of the failures in my life -- and there are a fair few -- are my own problem, I'm the only person responsible for solving them and actually making a success of things.  I'd hate to live the life of thinking that every single problem that came my way was because of the bogeyman]

I would generally agree with the supply and demand argument but it really doesn't work that way for non-professional jobs IME unlike professional which are far more mobile and market rate driven.

As an example of professional I had one vacancy for three years, which totally failed to attract a suitable candidate at first time of asking, and whenever HR asked if I wanted it re-advertised I said not to bother as I knew it was priced £15k below the market rate (i.e. the rate at which I could get anybody who could actually do it properly) and then fianlly after three years it was upped by that £15k and advertised and I had a couple of decent candiates and appointed.

Whereas with jobs for which any unskilled person can apply, because they come with training, there are both plum jobs and lemons.

Going back a bit but postman used to be a cracking job and as a consequence it was very hard to get into; in my home town you only got one if you had a strong association with the local football club - generally a player.  Similarly firemen these days have something like a hundred applicants for each vacancy; the police isn't as many but is still heavily oversubscribed for each job. So with supply and demand they should all drop their pay until they encounter a difficulty in filling vacancies.

Not going to happen.

The great majority of the public sector jobs open to unskilled people are not supply and demand; some backroom committee set sthe price after a good lunch.

This was exactly the case with Glasgow: pay and conditions scheme introduced a decade ago.

 

Home carer is a great example.  Whilst this is notionally a private sector the pay rates are set by the amount the council is prepared to pay for the services.  I think about £16 - £18 an hour at present.  Which sounds fine but this is for time spent with the person.  Not walking back to your car, driving to the next one, and parking up.  So in a rural area that's effectively £8 - £9 an hour worked out of which the care company has to also pay managers and deal with bureacracy.  As a consequence I have been hearing on the radio that a careers fair is happening in Truro today for carers with circus acts and some X Factor singer in order to get people to sign up without looking too closely at the pay.

 

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13 minutes ago, TheNoSnowMan said:

My attitude to this situation is simple. Would a woman working on the bins earn the same as a man? Would a man working as a carer earn the same as a woman? If the answer is 'yes' to both of those questions then there is no basis for this strike. Refuse collectors and Carers are not the same job - thus they command different pay levels. All this shows, yet again, is that women tend to go into lower paying jobs  - mainly because they're less physically demanding. Until women start doing the heavy labour like men, they deserve to earn less.

But, of course, I'm now a sexist for pointing this out.

I do sometimes wonder if the Islamification of the west is desperation by TPTB because they now realise what a total fuck up feminism has been.

That's my point though.  Just because a job is physically demanding does not make it de facto "harder".

I would be drinking a bottle of whisky a night (like @The XYY Man  though his is for leisure reasons) if I had to work in a children's hospice but if I was working on the bins I'd have nothing more than a few aches.

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18 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

I think some enterprising production company should take up the challenge and have a program called job swap.


The aim could be to show that the bin men wouldn't cope as care assistants. 

:-D
 

Or they could do one where a woman goes for a job interview, gets a job as  binMAN then interview her in a couple of years to see if she's still at the job.

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You have to be really careful when reading this sort of stuff in the MSM and trying to decide whether the reported issues are legit or bullshit. There are two measures of gender pay gap, mean and median, and both have strict legal measurement rules. Of course they never deal with any of this it's either heroic union members or dirty commies according to where you read it. Analyse the numbers, think for yourself, don't be a sheeple. 

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16 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

That's my point though.  Just because a job is physically demanding does not make it de facto "harder".

I would be drinking a bottle of whisky a night (like @The XYY Man  though his is for leisure reasons) if I had to work in a children's hospice but if I was working on the bins I'd have nothing more than a few aches.

This is one of those rare occasions I have to disagree Frank. All the hardest jobs I've ever had have been physically demanding. Be it working in a foundry, a machine shop, cleaning out polymer machinery, servicing hydraulics pumps - all of these jobs were the hardest I've done due to the physical nature of it. To be honest - even when I was working nights at my local Tesco, that was hard graft but nowhere near as tough as the aforementioned as they were in cold, dirty and, often, noisy factories. And, to be fair, the pay in those places was really good because of all the crap you had to put up with. Most of them are gone now of course!

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41 minutes ago, TheNoSnowMan said:

My attitude to this situation is simple. Would a woman working on the bins earn the same as a man? Would a man working as a carer earn the same as a woman? If the answer is 'yes' to both of those questions then there is no basis for this strike. Refuse collectors and Carers are not the same job - thus they command different pay levels. All this shows, yet again, is that women tend to go into lower paying jobs  - mainly because they're less physically demanding. Until women start doing the heavy labour like men, they deserve to earn less.

But, of course, I'm now a sexist for pointing this out.

I do sometimes wonder if the Islamification of the west is desperation by TPTB because they now realise what a total fuck up feminism has been.

 

Indeed, one of the biggest arguments against the 'wage gap' is the so called 'gap' is larger for self employed women vs self employed men than it is for employed men and women.

ie, when women are their own boss, they pay themselves LESS than when someone else (often a man) is their boss!

Presumably the government needs to start prosecuting those mysogynistic women who are paying themselves too little! 

Of course, its a stupid, cosmetic level argument that ignores massive nuanced differences in the exact conditions, but then so are virtually all 'debates' (in reality, there is no real debate. They have their conclusion ready to go before the issue is even discussed) covering the 'wage gap' 

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1 minute ago, PatronizingGit said:

 

Indeed, one of the biggest arguments against the 'wage gap' is the so called 'gap' is larger for self employed women vs self employed men than it is for employed men and women.

ie, when women are their own boss, they pay themselves LESS than when someone else (often a man) is their boss!

Presumably the government needs to start prosecuting those mysogynistic women who are paying themselves too little! 

Of course, its a stupid, cosmetic level argument that ignores massive nuanced differences in the exact conditions, but then so are virtually all 'debates' (in reality, there is no real debate. They have their conclusion ready to go before the issue is even discussed) covering the 'wage gap' 

They have to find 'gaps' since their jobs depend on it.

More non-jobs, more bureaucracy, more time and money pissed up the wall so upper middle class 'intellects' can feel they've actually achieved something. While the rest of us keep the county going.

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8 minutes ago, TheNoSnowMan said:

This is one of those rare occasions I have to disagree Frank. All the hardest jobs I've ever had have been physically demanding. Be it working in a foundry, a machine shop, cleaning out polymer machinery, servicing hydraulics pumps - all of these jobs were the hardest I've done due to the physical nature of it. To be honest - even when I was working nights at my local Tesco, that was hard graft but nowhere near as tough as the aforementioned as they were in cold, dirty and, often, noisy factories. And, to be fair, the pay in those places was really good because of all the crap you had to put up with. Most of them are gone now of course!

Okay, I bow to your practical knowledge.  I am a desk driver so my idea of hard physical graft is lifting up the computer to push the cables in. 

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2 minutes ago, TheNoSnowMan said:

They have to find 'gaps' since their jobs depend on it.

More non-jobs, more bureaucracy, more time and money pissed up the wall so upper middle class 'intellects' can feel they've actually achieved something. While the rest of us keep the county going.

Indeed...supposedly, men who are short earn less than ones who are tall. Men with hair do better than baldies. Gay men earn far more than straight men...while lesbian women earn far less than straight women.

You can cut it anyway you want. There are 'inequalities' in everything. The only question is the cause. And since the sociology types have taken to enrich themselves in this bureaucracy, the cause is always nefarious, premeditated...can never be that different groups of people make different choices. 

We all know once they're done with women, they'll move onto something else...trannies seems to be currently en vogue. 

 

 

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Just now, Frank Hovis said:

Okay, I bow to your practical knowledge.  I am a desk driver so my idea of hard physical graft is lifting up the computer to push the cables in. 

To be fair, out of the two of us, you are probably the smarter as you've earned just as much, if not more than me by being a desk driver while I was cleaning shitty machines. It all balances out!

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

I would generally agree with the supply and demand argument but it really doesn't work that way for non-professional jobs IME unlike professional which are far more mobile and market rate driven.

As an example of professional I had one vacancy for three years, which totally failed to attract a suitable candidate at first time of asking, and whenever HR asked if I wanted it re-advertised I said not to bother as I knew it was priced £15k below the market rate (i.e. the rate at which I could get anybody who could actually do it properly) and then fianlly after three years it was upped by that £15k and advertised and I had a couple of decent candiates and appointed.

Whereas with jobs for which any unskilled person can apply, because they come with training, there are both plum jobs and lemons.

Going back a bit but postman used to be a cracking job and as a consequence it was very hard to get into; in my home town you only got one if you had a strong association with the local football club - generally a player.  Similarly firemen these days have something like a hundred applicants for each vacancy; the police isn't as many but is still heavily oversubscribed for each job. So with supply and demand they should all drop their pay until they encounter a difficulty in filling vacancies.

Not going to happen.

The great majority of the public sector jobs open to unskilled people are not supply and demand; some backroom committee set sthe price after a good lunch.

This was exactly the case with Glasgow: pay and conditions scheme introduced a decade ago.

 

Home carer is a great example.  Whilst this is notionally a private sector the pay rates are set by the amount the council is prepared to pay for the services.  I think about £16 - £18 an hour at present.  Which sounds fine but this is for time spent with the person.  Not walking back to your car, driving to the next one, and parking up.  So in a rural area that's effectively £8 - £9 an hour worked out of which the care company has to also pay managers and deal with bureacracy.  As a consequence I have been hearing on the radio that a careers fair is happening in Truro today for carers with circus acts and some X Factor singer in order to get people to sign up without looking too closely at the pay.

 

a lot of people like comunity care has its easy to get your 12-16 or 24 hours in.however full time its a pain in the arse with the gaps.i did it for 4-5 years sevral different firms.one advantage though is the sheer amount of women your working with.

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