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Kwyjibo

Universally Challenged

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I watch University Challenge every week to remind myself I don't really know much, but am I really missing a lot when I don't have a classical education? I read a lot (more online than print these days), but I struggle to see any relevance of old texts and art to the world I live in. Doing Shakespeare in English lit at school left me cold. I remember the teacher telling me "what he is trying to say is....." and me thinking "that's your take on it, prove it", and if I like a picture I don't try and interpret the artist intentions..it's a picture I like. I understand the importance of learning from history, but can't connect with the "interpretation" of this and that. Happy to be told I'm wrong and should gem up.

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Frankly I think that it time that University courses were restricted to STEM. and entertaining things like archaeology.

We do need art schools and proper music schools that teach people to play instruments.

We don't need liberal arts and PPE wankers.

Necessary skills such as languages would be better taught in special language schools rather than Universities.

My experience (Geology) was that a lot of academics are almost totally detached from the real world. They went to school and Uni and basically stayed there never experiencing real life.

Just a load of over precious snowflakes.

Just now, One percent said:

Those who Do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Some things are worth knowing. Probably not the stuff on universally challenged though 

Just a trite saying.

Nobody learns from History.

They learn only from their own experience.

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1 minute ago, Byron said:

Frankly I think that it time that University courses were restricted to STEM. and entertaining things like archaeology.

We do need art schools and proper music schools that teach people to play instruments.

We don't need liberal arts and PPE wankers.

Necessary skills such as languages would be better taught in special language schools rather than Universities.

My experience (Geology) was that a lot of academics are almost totally detached from the real world. They went to school and Uni and basically stayed there never experiencing real life.

Just a load of over precious snowflakes.

You are trying to get me made redundant aren’t you?  I’ll come and camp in your house if I am. :P

2 minutes ago, Byron said:

Frankly I think that it time that University courses were restricted to STEM. and entertaining things like archaeology.

We do need art schools and proper music schools that teach people to play instruments.

We don't need liberal arts and PPE wankers.

Necessary skills such as languages would be better taught in special language schools rather than Universities.

My experience (Geology) was that a lot of academics are almost totally detached from the real world. They went to school and Uni and basically stayed there never experiencing real life.

Just a load of over precious snowflakes.

Just a trite saying.

Nobody learns from History.

They learn only from their own experience.

Dunno, I have learnt a lot from Orwell and Shakespeare and from the art of war. I guess it needs to be written. 

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4 minutes ago, Byron said:

 

Just a trite saying.

Nobody learns from History.

They learn only from their own experience.

But surely decisions based on history might be better informed i.e. don't make the mistake somebody else did when sure they were right?

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5 minutes ago, One percent said:

Those who Do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Some things are worth knowing. Probably not the stuff on universally challenged though 

I used to think like that.

Then you've go the banking class and a bazillion economists, physics degrees for the quants, but business/history/who knows what for the bankers and just look how that lot have learnt nothing and created successive boom/bust cycles of increasingly dysfunctional levels.

Then you've go the PPE educated politicians. Just co-opted troughers  by and large spending most of their effort trying to rip up the history of the countries they supposedly are protecting.

Then you've got the large bulk of the left, intellectually superior with their soft subject degrees who want to give socialism - we'll give marxism one more go because it wasn't done right the last few times.

 

 

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1 minute ago, onlyme said:

I used to think like that.

Then you've go the banking class and a bazillion economists, physics degrees for the quants, but business/history/who knows what for the bankers and just look how that lot have learnt nothing and created successive boom/bust cycles of increasingly dysfunctional levels.

Then you've go the PPE educated politicians. Just co-opted troughers  by and large spending most of their effort trying to rip up the history of the countries they supposedly are protecting.

Then you've got the large bulk of the left, intellectually superior with their soft subject degrees who want to give socialism - we'll give marxism one more go because it wasn't done right the last few times.

 

 

But that is proving @One percent 's point. Just because the asshats choose to ignore history doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn from it.

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Human history does not have to have a reason to exist.

It is there whether you like it or not and everyone of us is a product of it

The language you speak, the written script you use,  the types of clothes you wear, the food you eat, the music you listen to etc are all wrapped up in it.

Its existence is not dependent on any didactic purpose and it does not care whether you want to learn from it or not. 

 

Edited by Virgil Caine

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7 minutes ago, Dipsy said:

But that is proving @One percent 's point. Just because the asshats choose to ignore history doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn from it.

Not really when the answer back from the gaggle of educated idiots is nobody saw it coming when the average bod on the street is saying this is just not right and doesn't make sense.  

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16 minutes ago, Kwyjibo said:

I watch University Challenge every week to remind myself I don't really know much, but am I really missing a lot when I don't have a classical education? I read a lot (more online than print these days), but I struggle to see any relevance of old texts and art to the world I live in. Doing Shakespeare in English lit at school left me cold. I remember the teacher telling me "what he is trying to say is....." and me thinking "that's your take on it, prove it", and if I like a picture I don't try and interpret the artist intentions..it's a picture I like. I understand the importance of learning from history, but can't connect with the "interpretation" of this and that. Happy to be told I'm wrong and should gem up.

You're covering quite a few things in the one post.  That's not so easy to discuss sensibly.

  • Classics -- I'd have agreed with you 25 years ago (as a STEM guy), but I've since studied a teeny bit of rhetoric and logic -- it really does help formulate and debate arguments.  It would have helped you state your point above, for sure.  
  • Then there's classical art, poetry, music, etc.  The argument is less certain here -- is The Smiths less useful than Mozart? -- but classical art is usually quite good (survivorship bias), so why not.  I certainly think that exposure to classical art makes you appreciate it more -- appreciation isn't innate but built up (I don't know if this is a good thing or not).
  • History -- the 'doomed to repeat it' argument is a bit overdone, but it is surely interesting that over history the same things keep happening?  I guess that tells much of human nature.  Arguably learning human nature from history is better than learning psychology, with all its foibles (but then I don't play well with psychologists, so I'm probably biased).
  • Shakespeare, etc?  Well, you could probably survive very happily without exposure to his work, but its study does act as a well travelled foundation into analysis with which to apply to more recent literature.
  • I do broadly agree with the whole 'that's your take on it' -- but the whole point of an 'arty' HE is to get the skillset where you can take your view and go with it; the whole point of the earlier study is to learn how to apply this sort of logic (even if it doesn't look like that at the time).
  • University Challenge -- it's only entertainment -- don't take it too seriously.
  • Actually, don't bother watching it -- find something better to do.
  • If you do want something better to do, you could study classics.  But you could also do something else.

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2 minutes ago, onlyme said:

Not really when the answer back from the gaggle of educated idiots is nobody saw it coming when the average bod on the street is saying this is just not right and doesn't make sense.  

Exactly my point. Of course they saw it coming, the economy works in cycles. Disingenuous at best.  

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2 minutes ago, onlyme said:

Not really when the answer back from the gaggle of educated idiots is nobody saw it coming when the average bod on the street is saying this is just not right and doesn't make sense.  

It just means they choose to ignore history as they are conceited and too self confident and think, "no it will be different this time"

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33 minutes ago, Kwyjibo said:

I watch University Challenge every week to remind myself I don't really know much, but am I really missing a lot when I don't have a classical education? I read a lot (more online than print these days), but I struggle to see any relevance of old texts and art to the world I live in. Doing Shakespeare in English lit at school left me cold. I remember the teacher telling me "what he is trying to say is....." and me thinking "that's your take on it, prove it", and if I like a picture I don't try and interpret the artist intentions..it's a picture I like. I understand the importance of learning from history, but can't connect with the "interpretation" of this and that. Happy to be told I'm wrong and should gem up.

History is important.

Youve 1000s of years of people whove faced challenges which threvd over come or fucked up, sometimes massively.

However..... most history in edyuation comes down to whatever daft arse politics  uni lecturers are into at that time. The problem with HE is that its full of unemployable, wierd loons who just cant go out in the real world. Knock kneed cunt heads.

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Just now, spygirl said:

History is important.

Youve 1000s of years of people whove faced challenges which threvd over come or fucked up, sometimes massively.

However..... most history in edyuation comes down to whatever daft arse politics  uni lecturers are into at that time. The problem with HE is that its full of unemployable, wierd loons who just cant go out in the real world. Knock kneed cunt heads.

Have we met?  :)

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19 minutes ago, onlyme said:

I used to think like that.

Then you've go the banking class and a bazillion economists, physics degrees for the quants, but business/history/who knows what for the bankers and just look how that lot have learnt nothing and created successive boom/bust cycles of increasingly dysfunctional levels.

Then you've go the PPE educated politicians. Just co-opted troughers  by and large spending most of their effort trying to rip up the history of the countries they supposedly are protecting.

Then you've got the large bulk of the left, intellectually superior with their soft subject degrees who want to give socialism - we'll give marxism one more go because it wasn't done right the last few times.

 

 

Theyve probably gone or are going, bankers quants such like.

Get rud by charging for capital anf leverage. Get software.

This whole city thing started in thr mid 80s. Dead by 2009ish. Seriously.

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I used to read books all the time when I was a kid. I mostly read science fiction stuff, but i'd read anything that looked half interesting.

I never got into "the classics" as a thing -- although i did read the Odyssey -- but I'd be interested in working through the all time classics at some point.

I stumbled across this article the other day on Twitter.

https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2018/10/a-remarkably-hard-college-course-proves-remarkably-popular/#.W9BH1jt850Y.twitter

From which I got the list of classics below, but it's a bit incomplete. I was intending to look around and see if I could find any more lists, so I'd be interested to see any lists that any of you may know about.

The only one on that list that I've read is Moby Dick, which I thought was fantastic.

 

 

Auden-Syllabus.jpg

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1 minute ago, One percent said:

Have we met?  :)

Nope.im the cool bloke, drinking from the bottle of 100yo brandy, swingimg from chandelier into a writhing mass of 22yo women....

Youll be the be woman in yak hair cardi, in the corner, drinking dry sherry.

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2 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Nope.im the cool bloke, drinking from the bottle of 100yo brandy, swingimg from chandelier into a writhing mass of 22yo women....

Youll be the be woman in yak hair cardi, in the corner, drinking dry sherry.

See, we have met. o.OxD

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15 minutes ago, Virgil Caine said:

Human history does not have to have a reason to exist.

It is there whether you like it or not and everyone of us is a product of it

The language you speak, the written script you use,  the types of clothes you wear, the food you eat, the music you listen to etc are all wrapped up in it.

Its existence is not dependent on any didactic purpose and it does not care whether you want to learn from it or not. 

 

History is every where and ever relevant.

Hannibal taking his elephants up the alps.

Gobbels getting his pants pulled by an older jewish boy.

Me licking the shop freezer metal compartment with my tongue.

Lessons learned.....

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5 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

I used to read books all the time when I was a kid. I mostly read science fiction stuff, but i'd read anything that looked half interesting.

I never got into "the classics" as a thing -- although i did read the Odyssey -- but I'd be interested in working through the all time classics at some point.

I stumbled across this article the other day on Twitter.

https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2018/10/a-remarkably-hard-college-course-proves-remarkably-popular/#.W9BH1jt850Y.twitter

From which I got the list of classics below, but it's a bit incomplete. I was intending to look around and see if I could find any more lists, so I'd be interested to see any lists that any of you may know about.

The only one on that list that I've read is Moby Dick, which I thought was fantastic.

 

 

Auden-Syllabus.jpg

It is a bit obvious, but if you want to study classical literature get a Kindle -- all the texts are available for free.

[they're cheap second hand too, and people are upgrading so there's loads of older ones for free if you look -- so it doesn't need to be an expense]

Edited by dgul

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1 minute ago, dgul said:

It is a bit obvious, but if you want to study classical literature get a Kindle -- all the texts are available for free.

[they're cheap second hand too, and people are upgrading so there's loads of older ones for free if you look -- so it doesn't need to be an expense]

https://www.gutenberg.org/

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