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Castlevania

Chinese steel

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I’ve seen it mentioned several times in the deflation thread that Chinese steel is absolute garbage. However, is there anything to stop a block of flats to be constructed with it? If not, how would you go about finding out what quality steel was used in construction? I’d imagine anything made with it wouldn’t last 50 years? 

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58 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

I’ve seen it mentioned several times in the deflation thread that Chinese steel is absolute garbage. However, is there anything to stop a block of flats to be constructed with it? If not, how would you go about finding out what quality steel was used in construction? I’d imagine anything made with it wouldn’t last 50 years? 

Yes. The buyer of the company  building the flats.

If you need grade X steel and you know that steelfrom China is shit then youd dont buy it.

 

 

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Probably wouldn't affect the likes of most steel frame buildings - the loadings and safety margins not being that reliant on steel quality and being fully enclosed. Reinforced concrete might be more of an issue where biggest risk is concrete blows out thanks to water ingress and rusting of the reinforcement rods, cheap steel might be much more susceptible to accelerated rusting. Comes down to quality and thickness of concrete then, I think the concrete reinforced garages can start degrading at around 30 years. 

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2 hours ago, spygirl said:

The buyer of the company  building the flats.

If you need grade X steel and you know that steelfrom China is shit then youd dont buy it

Having been in that job...

If the design says grade X steel - you go round the market to find the cheapest thing that has a grade x stamp on it.  That's you covered, and your boss happy.  If the guys on site are telling you it's shit, you might check back and make sure it really has the grade X stamp.  Make sure to keep the certificate for your file.

If some steel mill in China put the X stamp on sub-standard steel, and issued the paperwork, you've done your bit.  You'd probably get the sack if you bought something more expensive and offered a racist argument like "chinese steel is shit"

Even if its true.

-----------------

What you need, is the designer writing the spec to put something like "Grade X steel produced by Tata Steel, Port Talbot, Wales."  Then, all the estimates are on that basis.  Then the winning contractor has to provide that specific steel.

Designers unlikely to do that, unless Castlevania and all the other buyers start asking the question while viewing the flats.

 

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2 hours ago, onlyme said:

Probably wouldn't affect the likes of most steel frame buildings - the loadings and safety margins not being that reliant on steel quality and being fully enclosed. Reinforced concrete might be more of an issue where biggest risk is concrete blows out thanks to water ingress and rusting of the reinforcement rods, cheap steel might be much more susceptible to accelerated rusting. Comes down to quality and thickness of concrete then, I think the concrete reinforced garages can start degrading at around 30 years. 

Generally agree.  But there could be issues with steel frames where multiple problems collide.  I'm thinking of a sub-standard steel frame, with defective cladding allowing the weather into the frame, perhaps in a coastal or polluted area - leading to accelerated rusting and early building failure.

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4 minutes ago, Bricks & Mortar said:

Having been in that job...

If the design says grade X steel - you go round the market to find the cheapest thing that has a grade x stamp on it.  That's you covered, and your boss happy.  If the guys on site are telling you it's shit, you might check back and make sure it really has the grade X stamp.  Make sure to keep the certificate for your file.

If some steel mill in China put the X stamp on sub-standard steel, and issued the paperwork, you've done your bit.  You'd probably get the sack if you bought something more expensive and offered a racist argument like "chinese steel is shit"

Even if its true.

-----------------

What you need, is the designer writing the spec to put something like "Grade X steel produced by Tata Steel, Port Talbot, Wales."  Then, all the estimates are on that basis.  Then the winning contractor has to provide that specific steel.

Designers unlikely to do that, unless Castlevania and all the other buyers start asking the question while viewing the flats.

 

Thats whats its come to - specing the grade and the supplier/maker.

The issue with going ahead and using something with suspect quality is that theres a lot of eyes on it.

If that tower block falls down and you go 'Ive got a bit paper'

Then they get the foreman in who says they raised the issue with the company.

Then  another company comes in and says yeah, its shit, we stopped using it.

That bit of paper becomes just a bit of paper.

 

1 minute ago, One percent said:

Best quality steel is was mined in Cleveland and the north east. Built some of the most iconic buildings around the world with that

All gone.

pedant mode - they mine iron ore ......

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3 minutes ago, spygirl said:

The issue with going ahead and using something with suspect quality is that theres a lot of eyes on it.

If that tower block falls down and you go 'Ive got a bit paper'

Then they get the foreman in who says they raised the issue with the company.

Then  another company comes in and says yeah, its shit, we stopped using it.

That bit of paper becomes just a bit of paper.

Well, it could happen like that.  But verbal, I said/you said isn't likely to carry as much weight as whats written down.  And the product certification carries the weight of the certifying body.  Who is the site manager and where is his degree in construction materials science?  And when the foreman says he raised the issue, the buyer can just say, "I don't recall that."

Sad, but true.

I have been there where the company raised concerns about a material with the architect/client.  Mostly things that could be seen, but once or twice critical structural components.  Mostly happens when the contract is written so that the client is on the hook for a replacement material, rather than the contractor.

 

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In a past life I used to buy 200+ tonnes of steel a month. We discovered at one point the Chinese mills were selling Z250 galvanised steel (250 grams per metre squared of zinc on the surface) as Z600. Difference between the 2 grades in price from memory was about £100 a tonne at the time. This obviously affects the corrosion protection of the steel and ultimately its intended lifetime/building guarantees. They were adamant in not admitting the fraud too even when extensive third party testing was done to prove it. Chinese certificates mean nothing, they send the good stuff to the test house/bring it out when the inspector visits on audit day then ship the s**te immediately after. See it with "UN packaging" too, you buy drums/pails from China that purport to perform to certain standards (drop tests/pressure tests etc.) and pay to put it through the testing and you will get laughable results back. They don't give a f**k about quality.

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4 hours ago, SillyBilly said:

In a past life I used to buy 200+ tonnes of steel a month. We discovered at one point the Chinese mills were selling Z250 galvanised steel (250 grams per metre squared of zinc on the surface) as Z600. Difference between the 2 grades in price from memory was about £100 a tonne at the time. This obviously affects the corrosion protection of the steel and ultimately its intended lifetime/building guarantees. They were adamant in not admitting the fraud too even when extensive third party testing was done to prove it. Chinese certificates mean nothing, they send the good stuff to the test house/bring it out when the inspector visits on audit day then ship the s**te immediately after. See it with "UN packaging" too, you buy drums/pails from China that purport to perform to certain standards (drop tests/pressure tests etc.) and pay to put it through the testing and you will get laughable results back. They don't give a f**k about quality.

yup.  another reason to hang the globalist politicians of the past 40 years.  people in the west will die in time from this shit quality issue.

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5 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

IIRC that would be Italian steel ,i don`t think the Turks have any strip mills 

Ford still make transits using the the three to four year rule,not sure on the custom though as they seem better built

Thanks.  We've owned a series of transits over 40 years.  Since they moved production to Turkey, they just seem to be rust buckets.  This one is probably the last anyway.  Might try a Renault next time.

 

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48 minutes ago, Bricks & Mortar said:

Thanks.  We've owned a series of transits over 40 years.  Since they moved production to Turkey, they just seem to be rust buckets.  This one is probably the last anyway.  Might try a Renault next time.

 

Peugeot boxer/citerone relay etc are good on the rust front .....but they use the 2.2 litre ford diesel  engines which are prety good 

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1 hour ago, Bricks & Mortar said:

Thanks.  We've owned a series of transits over 40 years.  Since they moved production to Turkey, they just seem to be rust buckets.  This one is probably the last anyway.  Might try a Renault next time.

 

Go for the Vivaro - they are still built at Luton. 

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