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My present line manager isn't the best. Before Christmas someone was off for a couple of weeks and I had to cover other people's duties. This week I was asked about the work I should have been doing...

LM: what about this project you're working on?

Me: It's been slow as I continually have to firefight in other areas.

LM: it really needs done and is behind schedule.

Me: before Christmas I was tasked with doing other things.

LM: you should just have said you couldn't do these other things.

FFS, it was him that told me to do the other stuff. 

I have to admit having a good line manager is awesome. You get so much stuff done in an effective manner. A bad one means you fuck about doing the same stuff again and again and then you lose motivation. My present line manager technically isn't very good and he tells me stuff that's just wrong. It's very very hard to handle a situation where you're getting told to do something which just isn't right.

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A good manager understands both the work you do and also what motivates you.  They will be interested in their staff and this shows in that when they ask a personal question such as "Did you have a good Christmas?" they will be genuinely interested in the reply.

A poor manager either won't ask or won't be interested in the reply.

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A good line manager will recognise and adapt their management style to the employees needs. I don't like to be micro managed - leave me alone to get on with it and I'll let you know if there's a problem. Others prefer a more hands on approach - in the metaphorical sense as clearly literally hands on these days would involve HR.

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1 hour ago, Dipsy said:

A good line manager will recognise and adapt their management style to the employees needs. I don't like to be micro managed - leave me alone to get on with it and I'll let you know if there's a problem. Others prefer a more hands on approach - in the metaphorical sense as clearly literally hands on these days would involve HR.

That's the way to do it! I expect to be treated like that, and treat others like that.:Old:

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10 minutes ago, MrPin said:

That's the way to do it! I expect to be treated like that, and treat others like that.:Old:

I do think you have to adapt though. I like to be left alone, my one team member likes a bit more interaction, likes me to check in with them more frequently, which is fine. What I do find difficult is the ones that need constant praise and validation, mind you I'd probably not recruit someone like that. The hardest part of being a manager is inheriting someone else's poor recruitment decisions.

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3 hours ago, Great Guy said:

My present line manager isn't the best. Before Christmas someone was off for a couple of weeks and I had to cover other people's duties. This week I was asked about the work I should have been doing...

LM: what about this project you're working on?

Me: It's been slow as I continually have to firefight in other areas.

LM: it really needs done and is behind schedule.

Me: before Christmas I was tasked with doing other things.

LM: you should just have said you couldn't do these other things.

FFS, it was him that told me to do the other stuff. 

I have to admit having a good line manager is awesome. You get so much stuff done in an effective manner. A bad one means you fuck about doing the same stuff again and again and then you lose motivation. My present line manager technically isn't very good and he tells me stuff that's just wrong. It's very very hard to handle a situation where you're getting told to do something which just isn't right.

A line manager is that - someone managing a factory production line.

There, you have a process producing the same product, which may be simple - widgets - or it may be complex - jet engine.

The people working on the line may be dumb - packing biscuits - or very highly skilled - fabricating turbune blades.

However the people working the line will be fungible.

A line managers job is to keep thd line going, handling and fixing issues.

Line managing does not work when the people and skills are not fungible. Or when the production v capacity is way out of kilter i.e not enough people.

Here youve got a cuttycut 'manager' fucking up production. 

The problem here is, like a lot of places, youll be short 30% of people. All hes doing is moving production from one job to another, dusrupting everything.

Hes not managing, hes doing a bad comb over of  a lack of people.

Next time he asks get him to cancel a project or product.

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For anyone interested in the topic of management/leadership check out 'Legitimate Leadership' by Wendy Lambourne. Cut her teeth resolving labour disputes in South Africa in the 1980s.

She talks a lot about the detrimental role of the asymettry of power in the relationship between manager and managed and how to become more effective by removing that as far as possible i.e. the role of the manager is to enable the people that they lead to become as effective as possible, not to just get someone to do loads of stuff because they can.

Now, that's not to say a manager should let a person they manage do whatever they like. One of her favourite phrases is 'management is not for sissies' and on more than one occasion she's told me to 'grow a pair'. Very interesting lady.

One of the other points I would make on this is that your manager is also (probably) doing their best. Part of being effective is in being able to manage your manager by also understanding their motivations and style and working out how best to deal with them. It's a fully 2-way street.

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11 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

For anyone interested in the topic of management/leadership check out 'Legitimate Leadership' by Wendy Lambourne. Cut her teeth resolving labour disputes in South Africa in the 1980s.

She talks a lot about the detrimental role of the asymettry of power in the relationship between manager and managed and how to become more effective by removing that as far as possible i.e. the role of the manager is to enable the people that they lead to become as effective as possible, not to just get someone to do loads of stuff because they can.

Now, that's not to say a manager should let a person they manage do whatever they like. One of her favourite phrases is 'management is not for sissies' and on more than one occasion she's told me to 'grow a pair'. Very interesting lady.

One of the other points I would make on this is that your manager is also (probably) doing their best. Part of being effective is in being able to manage your manager by also understanding their motivations and style and working out how best to deal with them. It's a fully 2-way street.

Err SA labour disputes in the 80s were not resolved - work or whip.

And ive never met a SA doing a professional/skilled job who was not bent as fuck.

Your confusing a manager with someone hired to deal with org fuckups and shortcomings by dumping on the plebs.

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59 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Err SA labour disputes in the 80s were not resolved - work or whip.

And ive never met a SA doing a professional/skilled job who was not bent as fuck.

Your confusing a manager with someone hired to deal with org fuckups and shortcomings by dumping on the plebs.

I'm not going to change your mind and nor would I try to. I'm just talking highly of someone who helped me and many others I know when they were struggling with their own shortcomings as managers by doing something different. 

The main point I would make is that it's a two way street. In my view people who have problems with their manager should always start by examining their own behaviours.

As an example, I had an issue before Christmas with someone who had taken the view that I was micromanaging, which I wasn't. What the person was struggling with was consistent scrutiny and being held to account for things they said they would do. We had a frank discussion and I asked them to think about why they were reacting in such a way to someone taking an interest in what they were doing and to think about why this particular project was being handled in this particular way. Which to their credit they did. And now the 'problem' has gone away.

Edited by Roger_Mellie

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4 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

The main point I would make is that it's a two way street. In my view people who have problems with their manager should always start by examining their own behaviours.

I agree with that. I normally try and see issues from others perspectives.

However some people just aren't good at managing others. To be frank some managers are more effective when they're off on holiday.

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2 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

I'm not going to change your mind and nor would I try to. I'm just talking highly of someone who helped me and many others I know when they were struggling with their own shortcomings as managers by doing something different. 

The main point I would make is that it's a two way street. In my view people who have problems with their manager should always start by examining their own behaviours.

Wrong. The more senior person has failed. He is probably spending more time looking upwards, brown nosing, than sorting out the needs of his (or maybe her) team.

If you have a team, you will spend more time motivating them, than doing stuff yourself. As your team rises to the challenge, you rise with them. If you stand on their shoulders and apportion blame, you are all sinking.

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7 minutes ago, MrPin said:

Wrong. The more senior person has failed. He is probably spending more time looking upwards, brown nosing, than sorting out the needs of his (or maybe her) team.

If you have a team, you will spend more time motivating them, than doing stuff yourself. As your team rises to the challenge, you rise with them. If you stand on their shoulders and apportion blame, you are all sinking.

Who said anything about blame? In fact all you have done is apportion 100% of the blame to the more senior person, when the situation is always more complicated than that.

Your comment on motivation I agree with, but the question is how? And how much responsibility should anyone take for their own motivation. One other question that Lambourne always asks is 'why would anyone be led by you?'. It's a difficult question to answer, but working towards being able to answer it is the key to having a motivated team.

 

14 minutes ago, Great Guy said:

I agree with that. I normally try and see issues from others perspectives.

However some people just aren't good at managing others. To be frank some managers are more effective when they're off on holiday.

Yep. But it's all part of life's rich fabric :)

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1 minute ago, Roger_Mellie said:

Who said anything about blame? In fact all you have done is apportion 100% of the blame to the more senior person, when the situation is always more complicated than that.

Your comment on motivation I agree with, but the question is how? And how much responsibility should anyone take for their own motivation. One other question that Lambourne always asks is 'why would anyone be led by you?'. It's a difficult question to answer, but working towards being able to answer it is the key to having a motivated team.

 

Yep. But it's all part of life's rich fabric :)

It's a situation of trust, and they are not so much led, ad guided.

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What the fuck is a "line" manager...?

Seriously - what is this poncy English that you pussy-whipped wankers are speaking...?

A "Manager" is what you have.

No other words need to be attached to that title.

It is self evident.

"Line" manager...?

Fuck off...!!!

 

XYY

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7 minutes ago, MrPin said:

It's a situation of trust, and they are not so much led, ad guided.

Yes. Trust, not power. Which is the mistake almost all ineffective managers are making. But it also takes two people to build a relationship of trust - hence the two way street.

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2 minutes ago, The XYY Man said:

What the fuck is a "line" manager...?

Seriously - what is this poncy English that you pussy-whipped wankers are speaking...?

A "Manager" is what you have.

No other words need to be attached to that title.

It is self evident.

"Line" manager...?

Fuck off...!!!

 

XYY

Not necessarily when you have a complex organisation. You can have many managers, but only one line manager. Unless you have a 'dotted line' which just means your organisation needs to get its shit together.

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2 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

Yes. Trust, not power. Which is the mistake almost all ineffective managers are making. But it also takes two people to build a relationship of trust - hence the two way street.

OK When can you start? I think many people who are attracted to the "power" of "management" were bullied at school, and want their own back.

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35 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

The main point I would make is that it's a two way street. In my view people who have problems with their manager should always start by examining their own behaviours.

Recently been working at a large employer for the first time in many years. Never thought I would go all @SNACR on this, but if this place is at all representative then I am staggered at the absolute wankerishness of the average working stiff. Just childish, workshy, willfully disruptive arseholes. I'm almost hoping the place closes, to see how they would fare in the employment marketplace.

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7 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

Not necessarily when you have a complex organisation. You can have many managers, but only one line manager. Unless you have a 'dotted line' which just means your organisation needs to get its shit together.

Well it's clear that you chug on the corporate bell-end.

Wanker.

 

XYY

Edited by The XYY Man

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1 minute ago, The XYY Man said:

Well it's clear that you chug on the corporate bell-end.

Wanker...

 

XYY

Aye. I have mouths to feed and we all make sacrifices. Anyway, I take the view that chugging on the corporate bell end for money is preferable to chugging on strangers bellends for money. Like your good self.

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12 minutes ago, The XYY Man said:

What the fuck is a "line" manager...?

Seriously - what is this poncy English that you pussy-whipped wankers are speaking...?

A "Manager" is what you have.

No other words need to be attached to that title.

It is self evident.

"Line" manager...?

Fuck off...!!!

 

XYY

The sad thing is this is probably one of your better posts!

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4 minutes ago, eight said:

Recently been working at a large employer for the first time in many years. Never thought I would go all @SNACR on this, but if this place is at all representative then I am staggered at the absolute wankerishness of the average working stiff. Just childish, workshy, willfully disruptive arseholes. I'm almost hoping the place closes, to see how they would fare in the employment marketplace.

Aye. Entitled behaviour and victim mentality. But of course it's all the fault of their manager.

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