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DTMark

American democracy

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I don't follow American politics very closely. I'm just not that interested in America on any level. Which is why it's odd that I felt intrigued enough to click on this and watch it.

It's delivered so superbly that it's easy to follow (five or so minutes passes very quickly) and the ramifications seem to be ridiculous. It does rather confirm a number of things that I had previously believed about the US system and conflicts of interest.

Is she wrong on any level?

I'm thinking that conflict of interest is something we take relatively seriously in the UK and that these things can't happen here. Is that right?

 

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8 minutes ago, DTMark said:

Is she wrong on any level? 

 

Well...   one...  she can never be a guy.

The UK is just as corrupt.   More subtle due to various laws but corruption abounds in this country.   Take the honour system as one example. 

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6 hours ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

Nothing new there. Ask the Clintons. And Obama. And many before them. It’s aimed at Trump and is probably true of him too. 

America is FUBAR and so is the UK, banks and other big political donors rule from behind the throne. It’s plutocracy and not democracy. 

Trump may well leave office poorer than when he entered, his election was mostly self funded and small donations & rallies. He also received something like 10% of pac donations that Hillary received.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/

But don't let that fool you, he's in it for the money, and bought by the deplorables.

Edited by snaga

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38 minutes ago, snaga said:

Trump may well leave office poorer than when he entered, his election was mostly self funded and small donations & rallies. He also received something like 10% of pac donations that Hillary received.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/

But don't let that fool you, he's in it for the money, and bought by the deplorables.

For many, the following may seem like a naive and idiotic comment, but personally, I don't think Trump is 'in it for the money', first and foremost. Money is a bonus but a bonus that he doesn't have his eye upon.

Now everyone will view every post of mine from now on as complete tosh, so what's new xD

 

Edited by Hopeful

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Trump is the first president a while to love America. Hence why they all hate him. 

I read last night about his support if the patriots owner. When his wife died he called him every week for a year just to talk and invite him to things.

While she is right in this video AOC is a communist and should be treated as such 

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28 minutes ago, snaga said:

Trump may well leave office poorer than when he entered, his election was mostly self funded and small donations & rallies. He also received something like 10% of pac donations that Hillary received.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-presidential-campaign-fundraising/

But don't let that fool you, he's in it for the money, and bought by the deplorables.

I couldn't say, I was commenting on the overall system. To my mind it's not much more democratic than Russia. After the charming, urbane Obama who seemed so "nice", but look what happened on his "watch", afaiac it's watch what they do not what they say. Trump has no charm whatsoever, but so far no wars and some things have got a little better. We'll see.

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15 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

For many, the following may seem like a naive and idiotic comment, but personally, I don't think Trump is 'in it for the money', first and foremost. Money is a bonus but a bonus that he doesn't have his eye upon.

Now everyone wull view every post of mine from now on as complete tosh, so what's new xD

 

I agree.  IMO he's bought a valuable commodity -- immortality.  Before 2016 he was just this rich guy, doomed to eventual obscurity.  Now he's on the list of people that US schoolkids have to learn.  

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25 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

For many, the following may seem like a naive and idiotic comment, but personally, I don't think Trump is 'in it for the money', first and foremost. Money is a bonus but a bonus that he doesn't have his eye upon.

Now everyone wull view every post of mine from now on as complete tosh, so what's new xD

 

I don't think he's in it for the money either. I do think he's genuine as he has been consistant with his thoughts for a long time as can be seen through his previous tv appearences over the decades.

I do however, think one big allure for him going for hte top job is, having his name plastered on schools, bridges, roads and maybe even a head carved into the side of a mountain. At the end of the day he loves to have his name on the side of something, this way he's not paying for it :D

Mark probably worth looking a little deeper into AOC (you won't need to go far) to see she just makes it up on the go. For some reason has got a lot of postive attention by those who are quite happy to accept what she says at face value.

If one can't see that democracy is just an illusion now after the 2016 ref and election with what's followed for the next 2 and half years across the pond, here or mainland europe I think most will never understand it.

Edited by A_P

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12 minutes ago, dgul said:

I agree.  IMO he's bought a valuable commodity -- immortality.  Before 2016 he was just this rich guy, doomed to eventual obscurity.  Now he's on the list of people that US schoolkids have to learn.  

He is the difference between a good team manager and a bad one, a good director and a bad one. The former wants greatness while the latter just wants to do a job.

A bad leader believes that getting the position itself will bring greatness and seal their position in history. After that, you can sit back and do nothiing. They will be despised and forgotton in short order. History will never see them as great.

A good leader knows that greatness in history comes from the memories of what you did.

I also think Trump believes in building upon what his Father started. He always speaks fondly of his father and so I don't think he wants to be the one that sends the Trump name down the shitter.

There is a saying that it takes three generations to make and lose money. The first creates it, the second builds upon it, the third sits back and spends it. I'm less sure about the third generation of Trumps.

 

8 minutes ago, A_P said:

I don't think he's in it for the money either. I do think he's genuine as he has been consistant with his thoughts for a long time as can be seen through his previous tv appearences over the decades.

I do however, think one big allure for him going for hte top job is, having his name plastered on schools, bridges, roads and maybe even a head carved into the side of a mountain. At the end of the day he loves to have his name on the side of something, this way he's not paying for it :D

Mark probably worth looking a little deeper into AOC (you won't need to go far) to see she just makes it up on the go. For some reason has got a lot of postive attention by those who are quite happy to accept what she says at face value.

If one can't see that democracy is just an illusion now after the 2016 ref and election with what's followed for the next 2 and half years across the pond, here or mainland europe I think most will never understand it.

 

Yes, he likes the Trump name on stuff. I think it's a homage to his father as much as personal glory; look dad, you taught me well

Edited by Hopeful

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Substiute america for 'everywhere' and democracy for 'all political systems' and it would be just as true. 

 

Sure, in some nations you might have to spend a bit on lawyers to find the right loopholes, but its the same everywhere, for all time, and i'm sure AOC has her own skeletons, or backers she'd rather remain unknown. 

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43 minutes ago, A_P said:

I don't think he's in it for the money either. I do think he's genuine as he has been consistant with his thoughts for a long time as can be seen through his previous tv appearences over the decades.

I do however, think one big allure for him going for hte top job is, having his name plastered on schools, bridges, roads and maybe even a head carved into the side of a mountain. At the end of the day he loves to have his name on the side of something, this way he's not paying for it :D

Mark probably worth looking a little deeper into AOC (you won't need to go far) to see she just makes it up on the go. For some reason has got a lot of postive attention by those who are quite happy to accept what she says at face value.

If one can't see that democracy is just an illusion now after the 2016 ref and election with what's followed for the next 2 and half years across the pond, here or mainland europe I think most will never understand it.

Like DTMark I'm not really interested in American politics , particularly a Democrat riding the female empowerment wave. It's going to be Puerto Rican Hillary vs Trump Round 2 at this rate. She's more intelligent than Hillary clearly, openly talking about shafting the establishment which Hillary never did as she was of course the word establishment personified. And she's a minority - plus 10 points. 

However her promise to scrap border controls and to label herself as a "progressive" tells me all I need to know. Lock her up - in the nut house.

 

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1 hour ago, ad_ceng said:

Trump is the first president a while to love America. Hence why they all hate him. 

It is an odd thing that we can have leaders who do not love there country and do not seem to want to put it first.

The whole Brexit shenanigans has been an eye-opener, a majority of MPs who simply do not believe in their own country and people. In France, a President from nowhere who will turn upon his own maligned people whilst kow-towing to Germany... Germany, Merkel (let's diminish our nation with sub-educated migrants), Canada... Sweden...

Trump is the first leader to emerge who is showing leadership for the benefit of his nation. Poland, Italy, Hungary should give us hope. No Trump, no Brexit and they will get crushed...

 

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5 minutes ago, Alonso Quijano said:

It is an odd thing that we can have leaders who do not love there country and do not seem to want to put it first.

The whole Brexit shenanigans has been an eye-opener, a majority of MPs who simply do not believe in their own country and people. In France, a President from nowhere who will turn upon his own maligned people whilst kow-towing to Germany... Germany, Merkel (let's diminish our nation with sub-educated migrants), Canada... Sweden...

Trump is the first leader to emerge who is showing leadership for the benefit of his nation. Poland, Italy, Hungary should give us hope. No Trump, no Brexit and they will get crushed...

 

Trump is tribally competitive and that scares the shit out of people who can't cut it, and liberalism has bred a hell of a lot of those fekkers.

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22 minutes ago, Alonso Quijano said:

It is an odd thing that we can have leaders who do not love there country and do not seem to want to put it first.

The whole Brexit shenanigans has been an eye-opener, a majority of MPs who simply do not believe in their own country and people. In France, a President from nowhere who will turn upon his own maligned people whilst kow-towing to Germany... Germany, Merkel (let's diminish our nation with sub-educated migrants), Canada... Sweden...

Trump is the first leader to emerge who is showing leadership for the benefit of his nation. Poland, Italy, Hungary should give us hope. No Trump, no Brexit and they will get crushed...

 

Everyone can be bought, and politicians are, as i understand it, surprisingly cheap when viewed in RoI terms. 

Power corrupts, as they say, and politics is power. Just more visible now as those pushing the corruption have no home, and are usual domiciled far away from the havoc they wreck.

Im sure there was as much corruption 100, 200 years ago, but those benefitting from it were of the nation and in the nation, so perhaps it didnt seem such an alien threat. 

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9 hours ago, DTMark said:

 

Is she wrong on any level?

 

The system she criticises is the system that President Trump inherited and which he promised to do something about.  Amongst other things he'll be mainly judged on the extent that he keeps his promises - drain the swamp, build the wall, exiting the wars and make America great again etc etc.

She accuses him of several things and it's not clear how much evidence there is that he did those things but if he did then it would smear his record though not necessarily be illegal.  They might mostly just be smears invented by the opposition which would make the opposition as bad but that wouldn't be a surprise as it would be just a continuation of their usual politics (both sides) but which has gone into overdrive against Trump.

I do think that in the current corrupt system AOC stands out (as being against the corruption - like Trump says he is - they have that in common) and is politically capable even if her facts are usually wide of the mark and it was also interesting how those around her were effectively asking her how high do you want us to jump.

 

Edited by twocents

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1 hour ago, twocents said:

The system she criticises is the system that President Trump inherited and which he promised to do something about.  Amongst other things he'll be mainly judged on the extent that he keeps his promises - drain the swamp, build the wall, exiting the wars and make America great again etc etc.

She accuses him of several things and it's not clear how much evidence there is that he did those things but if he did then it would smear his record though not necessarily be illegal.  They might mostly just be smears invented by the opposition which would make the opposition as bad but that wouldn't be a surprise as it would be just a continuation of their usual politics (both sides) but which has gone into overdrive against Trump.

I do think that in the current corrupt system AOC stands out (as being against the corruption - like Trump says he is - they have that in common) and is politically capable even if her facts are usually wide of the mark and it was also interesting how those around her were effectively asking her how high do you want us to jump.

 

If pointing out the bleedin' obvious is the new sign of the messiah then all hail the new priestess Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez!

Was she having a go a Trump or the Clintons?

There's a reason why this sort of thing goes on and that's because it's going to happen. If it's not out in the open then it's going to go on behind closed doors.

How did this stupid bint finance her shit show?

Quote

INCOME: AOC lists just $3,600 in 2018 income from a bartending job she quit in February. The previous year, she listed nearly $27,000 in annual income. That’s about right on the national average wage for bartenders ($28,808), according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Across all fields, starting salaries for college graduates averaged just above $50,000 in 2017. (She holds a bachelor’s degree in economics and international relations from Boston University.)

Her campaign raised $1.9 million, and it included big donations from the AFL-CIO ($5,000), the United Auto Workers ($5,000), MoveOn.Org ($5,000), Tom Steyer ($2,700), and Ben Affleck ($2,700). But as Rep. Duncan Hunter could tell you, you cannot use campaign funds for personal use, although you are permitted to pay yourself a salary. Ocasio-Cortez’s campaign paid her about $6,200 between August and October.


When she starts as a member of Congress in January, she’ll receive a big raise. Members of Congress earn $174,000 a year—which will place her in the top 10 percent of income nationally. People with that income typically pay around $34,000 annually in income taxes (which, just as an aside, is about $2,400 less than she would have paid had Trump not passed his tax cut).

SAVINGS: In her April financial disclosure form, Ocasio-Cortez listed three sources of savings: a checking account at Charles Schwab with between $15,000 and $50,000; an investment account at Charles Schwab with between $1,000 and $15,000; and a 401(k) retirement plan through the National Hispanic Institute valued at between $1,000 and $15,000.

Her spokesman said this month that she had burned through a lot of her savings during the campaign and now has “well below $7,000” in savings. A portion of her savings came from the sale of her parents’ house in 2016, the spokesman said.

Still, she’s doing better than most people her age. The median millennial has just $2,430 in savings, according to a study this year based on federal data.

Even AOC’s retirement savings are better than most her age. A February study showed that two-third of working Millennials have no retirement savings at all. Retirement savings is important for people in their 20s because money invested while you are young has more time to grow through compounding interest.

Ocasio-Cortez’s 401(k), according to her financial disclosures, is invested in a fund called Prudential High-Yield Z. High-yield bonds are what used to be known as “junk bonds”—risky corporate investments that in the 1980s were associated with greedy capitalists and that can carry higher returns than traditional bonds. While millennials should consider aggressive investments for retirement, many financial advisers would probably counsel her that it’s important to have a diversified portfolio that includes a variety of stock funds.

DEBT: Like many people her age, Ocasio-Cortez has some student loan debt. She lists between $15,000 and $50,000 in liabilities owed to the U.S. Department of Education associated with her studies at Boston University from 2007 to 2011. Student loans are common among Millennials: The year she graduated, about 68 percent of college students took out loans, according to the National Center for Education Statistics. Federal loans are generally designed to be paid off in 10 years, but there are also flexible payoff plans that account for people with low incomes.

Ocasio-Cortez has proposed forgiving student-loan debt.

One encouraging sign for her finances is that Ocasio-Cortez listed no credit card debt in her April disclosure. Credit card debt is the most common form of debt in America, with roughly 44 percent of households carrying a balance. With interest rates averaging 17 percent, credit card debt can quickly overwhelm financial goals. Financial advisers tend to make paying off high-interest debt a top financial priority.

Is she compromised by her own standards? Stupid fucker.

alexandria-ocasio-cortez 

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Not saying that she's wrong, but I think she ommits an important piece of democratic setup: people should be allowed to vote in whoever they want, may it be crooks, criminals or corporate lapdogs. If the will of the public is to have one in the office then that's it.

It would require full (or, at least, full enough) disclosure of one's actions and motiffs, and that's where hush money obviously comes in handy, but not everyone will accept that money and not everyone will bend under pressure. Some people will still want to speak up and that's where we might need tight legislation, to ensure that there's a media platform for them to be heard.

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41 minutes ago, XswampyX said:

If pointing out the bleedin' obvious is the new sign of the messiah then all hail the new priestess Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez!

Was she having a go a Trump or the Clintons?

There's a reason why this sort of thing goes on and that's because it's going to happen. If it's not out in the open then it's going to go on behind closed doors.

How did this stupid bint finance her shit show?

Is she compromised by her own standards? Stupid fucker.

alexandria-ocasio-cortez 

Indeed although as far as I'm aware stating the obvious where she did and in the way she did rarely if ever happens.  That's the niche President Trump used and she's doing something similar.

Their two stances are becoming a bit like the old Labour Conservative politics with identifiable differences rather than the recent times of all being the same (and all kowtowing to TPTB) but just pretending to be different. 

Of coutse she might be no different just like President Trump might turn out to be no different.

Edited by twocents

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4 hours ago, twocents said:

The system she criticises is the system that President Trump inherited and which he promised to do something about.  Amongst other things he'll be mainly judged on the extent that he keeps his promises - drain the swamp, build the wall, exiting the wars and make America great again etc etc.

She accuses him of several things and it's not clear how much evidence there is that he did those things but if he did then it would smear his record though not necessarily be illegal.  They might mostly just be smears invented by the opposition which would make the opposition as bad but that wouldn't be a surprise as it would be just a continuation of their usual politics (both sides) but which has gone into overdrive against Trump.

I do think that in the current corrupt system AOC stands out (as being against the corruption - like Trump says he is - they have that in common) and is politically capable even if her facts are usually wide of the mark and it was also interesting how those around her were effectively asking her how high do you want us to jump.

 

Indeed.  Trump is probably the least corrupt US president for 30 years.  Bushes and Oil.  Clintons and foreign donors.  Obama and pizzas.

 

She is dangerous, because she is young, attractive, and is not white.  Her appeal will be huge.  She is, basically, Tony Blair lite (does not have the IQ that Blair did to avoid 4 step traps)

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The old adage about US having the best politicians money can buy springs to mind.

PAC funding basically exists to ensure that policy makers do the military industrial complexes bidding. That is why so many US politicians appear to have the hots for expensive foreign military intervention.  I have spent a bit of time reading about the Vietnam war recently and while the conflict was a disaster for many of the participants the companies supplying arms and logistics made out like bandits

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8 minutes ago, Virgil Caine said:

 I have spent a bit of time reading about the Vietnam war recently and while the conflict was a disaster for many of the participants the companies supplying arms and logistics made out like bandits

Hence Nixon < Watergate.

Trump > Mueller.

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28 minutes ago, Bedrag Justesen said:

Hence Nixon < Watergate.

Trump > Mueller.

Yes  interesting that Tricky Dicky was brought down after having extracted the US from Vietnam. Clearly some wanted the war and the money to be made from it to go on forever.

Edited by Virgil Caine

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