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How we treat heroes in this once great land


One percent

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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6685071/Hero-won-Military-Cross-bravery-Iraq-years-later-smeared-war-criminal.html

There are people in there who want to bring me down. Lawyers with small glasses and big reputations, who have levelled all sorts of accusations against me and my fellow soldiers. Mistreatment. Mutilation. Murder.

They are lying in wait, ready to ambush me, just like the militia I faced in the Iraqi desert.

They’ve compared our behaviour to the Japanese in World War II and the Americans at My Lai [when troops killed unarmed Vietnamese civilians]. One described the events that day back in 2004 as ‘one of the most atrocious episodes in British Army history’.

My lawyer is out there, too, the one assigned to represent me. We’ve been through the statements I’ve already given and discussed what I might be challenged on. Keep your answers short, he advises.

They’ll want you to talk, wait for you to trip up over your own words. They’re going to try and goad you, make you angry, force you into saying something you don’t want to say. It’s combat but on their terms, not mine.

And now the moment has come to face my accusers. I’m escorted into the inquiry room, acutely aware of how everyone is watching me as I approach the dock from where I am to give my evidence. My heart is in my mouth, each slow step feeling like I’m walking through treacle. My reputation, my livelihood, everything I hold dear, are on the line. I could even end up in prison.

As a British soldier, I’d acted with honour, been through hell, done everything my country asked of me — and been betrayed. How did it ever come to this?

 

i think Shakespeare had it right when his character said! “First thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers”. What a disgusting way to treat someone who has served this country. 

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I don't know anything about this chap, or about what went on in Iraq.

In general though, fucking awful things happen in a ground war: torture, arbitrary executions, rape. In those extremes of the human condition, the tendency to all those terrible things is a constant of human nature, hard-wired into our biology. It takes the heavy discipline of a modern, civilised army to hold them back to some low level. In any "real" war - where people encounter each other on the ground, rather than killing technologically, sight unseen, from a safe distance - there are going to be abuses, and I would not want to be looking too carefully into those exceptions; let military tribunals investigate the very bad cases, but keep it separate from the civil courts, and don't even dream of a trial by media.

I think those who fight deserve all honour and respect if discipline holds and the amount of abuses that occur are kept small, so the campaign is conducted generally within the terms of the "rules of war". Nobody who hasn't been there has any fucking business criticising. The inevitable atrocities that do occur, if they are few in number (so not a general breakdown of army discipline) are the responsibility of the politicians who started the war, not of the soldiers.

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Well I see on the Keiser report the other day that US government are almost saying they want to go into Iran and Venezuela for the resources.. 

Fake weapons of mass distruction are no longer required!

They just say they are invading now with no fear of reprisal such is the western populations conditioned to not ask questions. 

Blair should be in prison with Bush!

If you kill people for no reason, invade for no reason! There was never a threat, they knew it!  It was all about the money.. always is.. 

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I would die myself in front of a firing squad if necessary to defend and support my mid twenties year old to son to refuse conscription in the uk or eu. Hopefully he’ll take heed of my suggestions to avoid it.

What is there to fight and possibly die for?

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This is Blair.

His make-work schemes for his wife.

War crimes are simple to deal with a court marshall. They do happen but they are rare these days.

The main war crime needs to have the people who signed off on it - Blair and his cabinet in this cae - before the ICC. Start at the top, then go after squaddies on the ground.

These squaddies were told to go there. The shooting and what not are detail. The decision to send them into areas with civilian population are down to the political level.

 

 

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OK, I appreciate many wont agree with my viewpoint but I think it's important to share it for balance. Whilst I agree with the majority of the points made above, nowadays I have little sympathy for those who join the forces...why?

...with the foresight of looking at previous history and the easy accessibility to media those who enlist are now in a position to make an informed (and educated?) decision. We treat our war vets atrociously, `wheeling them out` (with their mutilated bodies) on Rememberence Sunday for political gain, patting them on their backs and calling them heroes (whilst secretly saying `Thank God I don't look like that`), yet ignoring them for the rest of the year and leaving many of them to either live in poverty or on the `edge`of society (homeless) due to their inability to work/disabilities (both physical and mental)...

...the societal pressures to `defend your country` and not conscientiously object in WW1/2 were incredibly high but nowadays this is no longer the case, and so today joining the forces is a career decision, but one that can have massive (and potentially life changing) consequences, and `history` shows how much you are really valued by looking at how those preceding have been treated.

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3 hours ago, Wig said:

Nothing heroic about murdering dark skinned people cos your leaders told you to 

While I agree on principle, that particular chap enlisted way before the invasion on Iraq, and once you're in the army it's not that easy to quit.

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I served in Afghan as a medic. I had some good times and sad.

The willingness of politicans to send young 18 year olds kids into complex legal situations with little legal training and then hang them out to dry afterwards is simply breathtaking.We haven't had a decent leader since Maggie in that respect.Whatever people may think of her,she generally watched out for the Toms imho.

During Iraq/Afghan, insurgents would regularly pick up weapons fire and then go back to farming/cooking in five seconds.

I genuinely feel for this guy especially when it comes to lawyers going over minute details years later..The current crop of Westminster politicians are beyond contempt in my opinion for a whole host of reasons

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6 hours ago, MrXxx said:

OK, I appreciate many wont agree with my viewpoint but I think it's important to share it for balance. Whilst I agree with the majority of the points made above, nowadays I have little sympathy for those who join the forces...why?

...with the foresight of looking at previous history and the easy accessibility to media those who enlist are now in a position to make an informed (and educated?) decision. We treat our war vets atrociously, `wheeling them out` (with their mutilated bodies) on Rememberence Sunday for political gain, patting them on their backs and calling them heroes (whilst secretly saying `Thank God I don't look like that`), yet ignoring them for the rest of the year and leaving many of them to either live in poverty or on the `edge`of society (homeless) due to their inability to work/disabilities (both physical and mental)...

...the societal pressures to `defend your country` and not conscientiously object in WW1/2 were incredibly high but nowadays this is no longer the case, and so today joining the forces is a career decision, but one that can have massive (and potentially life changing) consequences, and `history` shows how much you are really valued by looking at how those preceding have been treated.

You're freedom of speech is literally defended with the bayonet.Career choice or duty-if there's no military-you can easily end up wearing a different style of national dress.

 

Pick your poison.

 

Agree on the shocking treatment of vets. I've a close mate get the treatment from the RMP's in a time of real despair for him. It really is no way to treat people-guilty till proven innocent.

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11 hours ago, Wig said:

Nothing heroic about murdering dark skinned people cos your leaders told you to 

 

As someone who spent 20 years in the Army (infantry), this one statement pisses me off.

And Sancho, thank you for your contribution. My own life was saved by very brave medics in Iraq. One of them was also injured coming to get me out of a bad situation.

 

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5 minutes ago, harp said:

 

As someone who spent 20 years in the Army (infantry), this one statement pisses me off.

And Sancho, thank you for your contribution. My own life was saved by very brave medics in Iraq. One of them was also injured coming to get me out of a bad situation.

 

As the Americans would say, “thank you for your service “. 👍

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1 hour ago, harp said:

 

As someone who spent 20 years in the Army (infantry), this one statement pisses me off.

And Sancho, thank you for your contribution. My own life was saved by very brave medics in Iraq. One of them was also injured coming to get me out of a bad situation.

 

I was a reservist,I was older so knew what I was getting into.

Must say that I came away with an incredible respect for the  resilience and enduring stickability of the young lads who served in the infantry.It's so easy to criticize troops from the comfort of the armchair but antoher thing altogether to get shot at, watch your friends get killed and carry on functioning in your job.

I had it easy compared to many but am grateful for the insight it provided me into life

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12 hours ago, harp said:

 

As someone who spent 20 years in the Army (infantry), this one statement pisses me off.

And Sancho, thank you for your contribution. My own life was saved by very brave medics in Iraq. One of them was also injured coming to get me out of a bad situation.

 

 

The entire concept of ‘killing for your flag’ abhors me.

 

For context I grew up in a garrison town so my real world experience leaves me with zero respect for 99% of the heroes  I’ve met

 

I appreciate I’m not allowed that opinion and that I should cheer on the murder of women and children from that funny named country over there, but I don’t love my flag nor hate anyone else’s flag

 

is a rectangular piece of fabric worth killing innocent strangers over? 

 

Yes because your establishment say so. 

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17 hours ago, sancho panza said:

I served in Afghan as a medic. I had some good times and sad.

The willingness of politicans to send young 18 year olds kids into complex legal situations with little legal training and then hang them out to dry afterwards is simply breathtaking.We haven't had a decent leader since Maggie in that respect.Whatever people may think of her,she generally watched out for the Toms imho.

During Iraq/Afghan, insurgents would regularly pick up weapons fire and then go back to farming/cooking in five seconds.

I genuinely feel for this guy especially when it comes to lawyers going over minute details years later..The current crop of Westminster politicians are beyond contempt in my opinion for a whole host of reasons

Ah, the old `Your freedom of speech etc`...thats why innocents abroad can be detained for long periods of time or other countries can be invaded against international protocols with little/no action by our leaders, especially where trade deals are at threat...when was the last war fought that was based on liberty?...And as for Maggie? She sent the troops to the Falklands to defend the residents liberty?...had nothing to do with her poll ratings and a forthcoming election then?...

...as for the 18 yr olds being hung out to dry, agree, it's all well politicians insisting that battle should be `fought as gentlemen` when their arses are not on the line!

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5 hours ago, Wig said:

 

The entire concept of ‘killing for your flag’ abhors me.

 

For context I grew up in a garrison town so my real world experience leaves me with zero respect for 99% of the heroes  I’ve met

 

I appreciate I’m not allowed that opinion and that I should cheer on the murder of women and children from that funny named country over there, but I don’t love my flag nor hate anyone else’s flag

 

is a rectangular piece of fabric worth killing innocent strangers over? 

 

Yes because your establishment say so. 

2

Ah! Now it starts to make sense. It really must be hard being an inadequate male growing up in a garrison town?

Show me on the doll where the soldier punched you.

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10 minutes ago, harp said:

Ah! Now it starts to make sense. It really must be hard being an inadequate male growing up in a garrison town?

Show me on the doll where the soldier punched you.

Bizarre response. Wig's point is valid and serious. I went to school with several future squaddies. None were exactly delightful characters, although one or two had their brash, youthful cuntishness smacked out of them by what they experienced in action (Norn Iron in some cases), and went on to become decent human beings after being demobbed.

I wouldn't criticise the troops - they really were just boys - but the people who put them in that position. The idea of sending young, intentionally-deluded young men out to die is horrendous. Robert Heinlein was probably not the first to suggest that whichever lawmakers vote to engage in war are themselves shipped out to the front lines the very next day, but the point stands.

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1 hour ago, harp said:

Ah! Now it starts to make sense. It really must be hard being an inadequate male growing up in a garrison town?

Show me on the doll where the soldier punched you.

 

So in your mind, the only possible reason a tax paying hard working law abiding person wouldn’t support the murder of innocent women and children... is that they must have been assaulted in the past, by a hero from the army.

thats some kind of logic ain’t it!

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Wig said:

 

So in your mind, the only possible reason a tax paying hard working law abiding person wouldn’t support the murder of innocent women and children... is that they must have been assaulted in the past, by a hero from the army.

thats some kind of logic ain’t it!

 

 

See this is your problem. You think we all murder women and children. Trust me, the only people I've 'murdered' and seen 'murdered' have been pointing a weapon and shooting in our direction. So call it what you like. You clearly have issues fella.  
And thanks for paying tax, it goes towards more military equipment.

I'm done wasting my breath. You believe what you like, you have your opinion and a right to voice it.

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1 hour ago, harp said:

See this is your problem. You think we all murder women and children. Trust me, the only people I've 'murdered' and seen 'murdered' have been pointing a weapon and shooting in our direction. So call it what you like. You clearly have issues fella.  
And thanks for paying tax, it goes towards more military equipment.

I'm done wasting my breath. You believe what you like, you have your opinion and a right to voice it.

There's no equal sign between invaders and insurgents. If someone enters my house with a gun, I point mine back at him and he shoots me dead, it's still murder, ain't it? US and their buddies in Iraq or Russians in Ukraine, same story.

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12 hours ago, MrXxx said:

Ah, the old `Your freedom of speech etc`...thats why innocents abroad can be detained for long periods of time or other countries can be invaded against international protocols with little/no action by our leaders, especially where trade deals are at threat...when was the last war fought that was based on liberty?...And as for Maggie? She sent the troops to the Falklands to defend the residents liberty?...had nothing to do with her poll ratings and a forthcoming election then?...

...as for the 18 yr olds being hung out to dry, agree, it's all well politicians insisting that battle should be `fought as gentlemen` when their arses are not on the line!

You're conflating the existence of the army with it being necessarily misdirected and/or misused by the political class.

The reality is that the army exists to defend our freedoms.It has been and most likely will be, used for nefarious political ends.It was ever thus.

Like it or not,armies function on orders, be they legal or illegal, moral or immoral.

And whilst Maggie may have fought the Falklands for political reasons(she may not as well), one thing she never did from what I recall, was to hang out soldiers/sailors/airmen to dry for the orders she or her generals/officer class issued. For instance, the Belgrano. Lot of lives lost, but she never stepped away from taking full responsisbility for it.I'm not sure the same would happen now.

 

12 hours ago, Wig said:

 

The entire concept of ‘killing for your flag’ abhors me.

 

For context I grew up in a garrison town so my real world experience leaves me with zero respect for 99% of the heroes  I’ve met

 

I appreciate I’m not allowed that opinion and that I should cheer on the murder of women and children from that funny named country over there, but I don’t love my flag nor hate anyone else’s flag

 

is a rectangular piece of fabric worth killing innocent strangers over? 

 

Yes because your establishment say so. 

I'm not sure when you're on the ground and someone's shooting at you,that your uppermost thought is your 'flag'.

And of course you're allowed your opinion. I think it's great that live in a socity where you can disagree.

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6 hours ago, Alex said:

Bizarre response. Wig's point is valid and serious. I went to school with several future squaddies. None were exactly delightful characters, although one or two had their brash, youthful cuntishness smacked out of them by what they experienced in action (Norn Iron in some cases), and went on to become decent human beings after being demobbed.

I wouldn't criticise the troops - they really were just boys - but the people who put them in that position. The idea of sending young, intentionally-deluded young men out to die is horrendous. Robert Heinlein was probably not the first to suggest that whichever lawmakers vote to engage in war are themselves shipped out to the front lines the very next day, but the point stands.

Nail head hit.

2 hours ago, kibuc said:

There's no equal sign between invaders and insurgents. If someone enters my house with a gun, I point mine back at him and he shoots me dead, it's still murder, ain't it? US and their buddies in Iraq or Russians in Ukraine, same story.

Yep.

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Think it's time to bring this one to a close and just agree to disagree, although there are points that we all agree on...let's give the last word to those who were actually there in 1914-18 and try (for once) to learn from our history...currently on iPlayer they have the 2018 film `Lest we forget them` that is a compilation of actual footage (some colour treated) and interviews of the 1914-18 war...and not a romanticized treatment either..1.24 onwards is particularly poignant given the sentiments above about how we treat those who return.

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21 hours ago, harp said:

See this is your problem. You think we all murder women and children. Trust me, the only people I've 'murdered' and seen 'murdered' have been pointing a weapon and shooting in our direction. So call it what you like. You clearly have issues fella.  
And thanks for paying tax, it goes towards more military equipment.

I'm done wasting my breath. You believe what you like, you have your opinion and a right to voice it.

I’m not an advocate of killing a fellow human being - based solely on the colour of their skin / their flag - and I have issues. 

Ok mate. 

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