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Frank Hovis

Organic meat now cannot be subject to religious slaughter

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Hurrah!

It may have taken a while but it's recognised now that there's no point in having high welfare standards if you are then going to let them be tortured during slaughter.

Maybe commonsense hasn't quite gone extinct.

 

Quote

 

PARIS (AP) — The European Union's top court has ruled that the EU organic food logo cannot be used on meat derived from animals that have been slaughtered in accordance with religious rites without first being stunned.

The EU Court of Justice said Tuesday that such labelling aims to ensure products have been obtained in observance of the highest standards in animal welfare. The court says the stunning technique significantly reduces animal suffering.

A French animal welfare association brought the case in 2012, arguing that halal beef shouldn't be labeled organic.

 

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2019-02-26/eu-court-rules-halal-meat-cannot-get-organic-label

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1 minute ago, Frank Hovis said:

Hurrah!

It may have taken a while but it's recognised now that there's no point in having high welfare standards if you are then going to let them be tortured during slaughter.

Maybe commonsense hasn't quite gone extinct.

 

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2019-02-26/eu-court-rules-halal-meat-cannot-get-organic-label

Ooh, good, does that mean that any meat labelled organic cannot be halal or kosher?  👍

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2 minutes ago, One percent said:

Ooh, good, does that mean that any meat labelled organic cannot be halal or kosher?  👍

Yup.

Or rather yup when that has been effected; it's only just happened and I haven't seen it reported on any UK news sites as yet.

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@Frank Hovis From an animal welfare perspective, there isn't much difference between organic and non-organic anyway. All it means is the feed is different, and antibiotics aren't used - arguably making it perhaps worse for livestock from an animal welfare perspective as they can't be treated for common conditions.

I hope DOSBODers didn't buy into the marketing of green fields and jolly organic farmers with a straw hat.

So frankly this doesn't make much difference to anything, unless you're buying organic food for the potential health benefits to yourself of course. If you're worried about animal welfare then the only solution is to not buy any farmed meat or animal products unless you know the provenance of the farm and farmer).

Edit: There are some benefits but they are minor. https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2009/08/organic-is-better-for-the-animals-and-for-you-too

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I get our meat from Riverford. They claim that their producers keep the animals alive for longer - still kill them in the end mind, but in my opinion their meat, particularly the beef is far superior to any non-organic I've tasted. I did email them about the slaughter policy a while ago and they confirmed it is not halal/kosher. It's expensive so we eat less meat now.

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45 minutes ago, spunko said:

@Frank Hovis From an animal welfare perspective, there isn't much difference between organic and non-organic anyway. All it means is the feed is different, and antibiotics aren't used - arguably making it perhaps worse for livestock from an animal welfare perspective as they can't be treated for common conditions.

I hope DOSBODers didn't buy into the marketing of green fields and jolly organic farmers with a straw hat.

So frankly this doesn't make much difference to anything, unless you're buying organic food for the potential health benefits to yourself of course. If you're worried about animal welfare then the only solution is to not buy any farmed meat or animal products unless you know the provenance of the farm and farmer).

Edit: There are some benefits but they are minor. https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2009/08/organic-is-better-for-the-animals-and-for-you-too

I thought that was only for no cause use as in part of the every day diet 

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I always thought certified organic had several times the amount of space free-range had - something like 4m2 vs 1m2....

EDIT:

Quote

Organic
Inside space: 10 birds per square metre (sq m)
Outside space: one bird per 4sq m
Birds are given good natural light and the most space to roam around indoors, and are encouraged from an early age to roam free range. Slower growing breeds are used, which means birds develop at a natural rate. They eat organic food and individual birds are only given antibiotics if absolutely necessary.
Soil Association is generally considered the highest welfare organic certification.

 

Free range

Inside space: 10 birds per sq m
Outside space: one bird per sq m
Birds are given natural light and more space to roam around, and are also encouraged to roam free range.

Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/organic-chicken-daylesford-farm-highwelfare-better-a8504166.html

I'm buying certified organic chicken breasts from Sainsburys for a small fortune, but I figure it's worth it health wise and ethically to get the best meat possible.

Edited by JoeDavola

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3 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

Hurrah!

It may have taken a while but it's recognised now that there's no point in having high welfare standards if you are then going to let them be tortured during slaughter.

Maybe commonsense hasn't quite gone extinct.

 

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2019-02-26/eu-court-rules-halal-meat-cannot-get-organic-label

Thread crossed. Have we finally found something good to come out of the EU?

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3 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

What happens when a Muslim wants to eat organic meat then? 

This suits me as it stands, but I can imagine this decision getting reversed in the courts. 

Hierarchy of values. They decide what matters to them most. 

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21 hours ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

What happens when a Muslim wants to eat organic meat then? 

This suits me as it stands, but I can imagine this decision getting reversed in the courts. 

It would be trivially easy for the 'Halal association of the UK' to invent a new label called 'Halal semi-organic', and get Islamic butchers to source certified organic reared meat and then butcher according to Halal principals.  I'd be very happy with this.

I'm absolutely not happy with the general public having the wool pulled over their eyes about the welfare of animals at death and Halal.  IMO all Halal (and Kosher and anything else relevant) meat should have a big label reading* 'MEAT SOURCED FROM ANIMALS KILLED USING A RELIGIOUS EXEMPTION TO THE WELFARE OF ANIMALS AT SLAUGHTER REGULATIONS'.  (in bold AND SHOUTY as well, just like that).

[* plain and easy for all customers to read, both at point of sale in shop, and also in restaurants etc]

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6 minutes ago, dgul said:

It would be trivially easy for the 'Halal association of the UK' to invent a new label called 'Halal semi-organic', and get Islamic butchers to source certified organic reared meat and then butcher according to Halal principals.  I'd be very happy with this.

I'm absolutely not happy with the general public having the wool pulled over their eyes about the welfare of animals at death and Halal.  IMO all Halal (and Kosher and anything else relevant) meat should have a big label reading* 'MEAT SOURCED FROM ANIMALS KILLED USING A RELIGIOUS EXEMPTION TO THE WELFARE OF ANIMALS AT SLAUGHTER REGULATIONS'.  (in bold AND SHOUTY as well, just like that).

[* plain and easy for all customers to read, both at point of sale in shop, and also in restaurants etc]

Or more simply:

THE ANIMAL THAT PROVIDED THIS MEAT WAS KILLED BY HAVING ITS THROAT SLIT WHILST IT WAS FULLY CONSCIOUS AND THEN BLEEDING TO DEATH

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2 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

Or more simply:

THE ANIMAL THAT PROVIDED THIS MEAT WAS KILLED BY HAVING ITS THROAT SLIT WHILST IT WAS FULLY CONSCIOUS AND THEN BLEEDING TO DEATH

That would do also.  But I'd stick with emboldened.

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On 26/02/2019 at 19:38, JoeDavola said:

I'm buying certified organic chicken breasts from Sainsburys for a small fortune, but I figure it's worth it health wise and ethically to get the best meat possible.

The best meat possible, perhaps. But how depressing that organic farms are often like this.  One day people will see what's going on, with all this information freely available online now, "organic" will actually have to mean something.

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12 minutes ago, spunko said:

The best meat possible, perhaps. But how depressing that organic farms are often like this.  One day people will see what's going on, with all this information freely available online now, "organic" will actually have to mean something.

Ridiculously poncey overemotional commentary on that video of the organic egg farm. Only someone with no experience of dealing with real chickens would be taken in by it.

Stupid, because I (and no doubt others) would be genuinely interested in sensible ways of improving the way egg and hen farming is done, but they're not interested in that, they want to talk anthropomorphic bullshit and make us all eat only plants.

 

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32 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

Ridiculously poncey overemotional commentary on that video of the organic egg farm. Only someone with no experience of dealing with real chickens would be taken in by it.

Stupid, because I (and no doubt others) would be genuinely interested in sensible ways of improving the way egg and hen farming is done, but they're not interested in that, they want to talk anthropomorphic bullshit and make us all eat only plants.

 

Right, but what about the content? I mute all YouTube videos by default.

I can't see any way of having mass organic meat/egg production and having high standards of animal welfare, they just cannot be done together at the scale needed. Some might not mind which is fine but many people do, are they're being conned. 

You may as well just buy "free range" or "enriched" eggs IMO.

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1 minute ago, spunko said:

Right, but what about the content? I mute all YouTube videos by default.

I can't see any way of having mass organic meat/egg production and having high standards of animal welfare, they just cannot be done together at the scale needed. Some might not mind which is fine but many people do, are they're being conned. 

Very sensible with the youtube muting in that particular case!

I guess as you say it boils down to cost and scale. When I can, I buy the eggs from a Swiss farm where the hens can be seen running around, they're not actually that expensive but I have to be nearby for another reason, it's not that close to Geneva. Otherwise I would guess my organic eggs are coming from somewhere like the farm in that video.

Eggs are a relatively cheap and nutritious food that I eat a lot of, and I'd probably pay more if it could be guaranteed the hens had a life at least a little bit like those my family kept when I was younger. But would everyone? Not easy to police as well - you'd need something like a special brand with the eggs in their own chilled cabinet in the supermarket with a screen at the top linked to webcams on the special farms showing the hens doing their pastoral idyll thing. 

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6 hours ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

Very sensible with the youtube muting in that particular case!

I guess as you say it boils down to cost and scale. When I can, I buy the eggs from a Swiss farm where the hens can be seen running around, they're not actually that expensive but I have to be nearby for another reason, it's not that close to Geneva. Otherwise I would guess my organic eggs are coming from somewhere like the farm in that video.

Eggs are a relatively cheap and nutritious food that I eat a lot of, and I'd probably pay more if it could be guaranteed the hens had a life at least a little bit like those my family kept when I was younger. But would everyone? Not easy to police as well - you'd need something like a special brand with the eggs in their own chilled cabinet in the supermarket with a screen at the top linked to webcams on the special farms showing the hens doing their pastoral idyll thing. 

You can get, in the UK anyway, eggs from hens that aren't slaughtered when they expire, they just "live out their days" in a field. Can't remember the name of the company but I think they're in Wiltshire.

Given that most hens live to ~8 years old and stop laying at about 4 years old (and slow down a lot after 18 months) the costs of buying a dozen eggs from them is about £8...! It's money that most people can't afford, understandably. If you don't mind them being sent to slaughter at 18 months then I suppose Clarence Court and others are okay, but far from perfect. You've also got the somewhat dubious practice of killing all male chicks after they hatch, with whatever one you choose. There just isn't a plausible way to produce the quantities of eggs needed commercially, where the price isn't extortionate sadly. And as is obvious, wherever cost is the major concern, welfare always suffers. Maybe one day someone will come up with a way to improve that but as the population continues to explode I doubt it.

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