How does Buy to Let END!

[Option5]

2 hours ago, Hancock said:

HMO is a hassle, can't imagine the average 60+ BTL'er wanting to deal with many of the people that are willing to live in a HMO (bedsit).

Rigsby?

[Hancock]

51 minutes ago, Option5 said:

Rigsby?

I had to google that, you're showing your age.

 

[spygirl]

Desperation.

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/56750550/

£652,500

(£157/sq. ft)

Block of flats for sale Morgan Street, Scarborough YO12

Aggregate gross yield 6%

 

That's a pretty shitty gross yield, I thought. Youd want well above 10% to make a return.

Then I saw - 7-unit portfolio spread over Scarborough

And thought - fuck that, thats nuts. Worth 200k tops.

 

Why the fuck try and sell them as one lump? They are not same building.

[eek]

56 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Desperation.

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/56750550/

£652,500

(£157/sq. ft)

Block of flats for sale Morgan Street, Scarborough YO12

Aggregate gross yield 6%

 

That's a pretty shitty gross yield, I thought. Youd want well above 10% to make a return.

Then I saw - 7-unit portfolio spread over Scarborough

And thought - fuck that, thats nuts. Worth 200k tops.

 

Why the fuck try and sell them as one lump? They are not same building.

God loves a trier, and you never know someone may be stupid enough 

[Andersen]

Wales : legislation has been passed (according to the so called) ... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56182025  :

LL's have to give tennants 6 month notice when terminating a rental contract (increased from 2 months)

Minimum rental contract is 12 months (to give T's stability in these uncertain times)

- at least one LL forum has flagged that removing problem / non-paying T's is already a problem, under the new rules it will be even worse. LL trade bodies are expecting the changes to trigger more LL's to sell up/

How long before the same changes haooen in England? Expect the number of rental properties to keep reducing - not good news for anyone who needs / choses to rent 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Andersen

[King Penda]

7 minutes ago, Andersen said:

Wales : legislation has been passed (according to the so called) ... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56182025  :

LL's have to give tennants 6 month notice when terminating a rental contract (increased from 2 months)

Minimum rental contract is 12 months (to give T's stability in these uncertain times)

- at least one LL forum has flagged that removing problem / non-paying T's is already a problem, under the new rules it will be even worse. LL trade bodies are expecting the changes to trigger more LL's to sell up/

How long before the same changes haooen in England? Expect the number of rental properties to keep reducing - not good news for anyone who needs / choses to rent 

Banks and insurance and pension company’s need the decks clearing of compatition.if labour get in they will slaughter them

tax wize

[Wight Flight]

49 minutes ago, Andersen said:

Wales : legislation has been passed (according to the so called) ... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56182025  :

LL's have to give tennants 6 month notice when terminating a rental contract (increased from 2 months)

Minimum rental contract is 12 months (to give T's stability in these uncertain times)

- at least one LL forum has flagged that removing problem / non-paying T's is already a problem, under the new rules it will be even worse. LL trade bodies are expecting the changes to trigger more LL's to sell up/

How long before the same changes haooen in England? Expect the number of rental properties to keep reducing - not good news for anyone who needs / choses to rent 

Interesting. Wales was my second choice before moving here.

I could be tempted to move there with these rules.

[King Penda]

6 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

Interesting. Wales was my second choice before moving here.

I could be tempted to move there with these rules.

Better rules yes they will protect good clients from naughty landlords but many will abuse it ie renters .still should be fun to watch when people use these rules against the banks etc because they will cover there losses by increasing everyone’s rents not doing a few extra shifts to cover the morgage 

[Hancock]

I hope BTL ends in this way, with councils taking back property.

I know its communism, but so was the govt bailing out landlords for the last 2 decades and handing them a large cut of the £30BLN a year Housing Benefit bill.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/10/04/berlins-battle-evict-landlords-will-not-solve-housing-crisis/

Cries to “respect the vote” have echoed across the Western world over the past few years as political opinion becomes increasingly divided.

In Britain, some urged for a second referendum following Brexit. Scottish First Minister Krankie is calling another independence vote after a loss for the SNP in 2014. And in the US, die-hard Donald Trump supporters refused to accept President Biden’s nomination.

Now, regional politicians in Germany are facing a similar battle. Last week Berliners took to the polls in a vote to expropriate over 200,000 privately owned rental flats from corporate landlords. This applies to a total of 12 private property companies, each with 3,000 or more units in the capital that would be bought by the German government.

Campaigners of the referendum, named Deutsche Wohnen & Co. enteignen, won a majority of more than 1m votes from embittered tenants of large landlords, who have seen continual jumps in rents over the previous 10 years. Berlin’s expanding population, due to an influx of external and internal migrants, has led to ever increasing demand that has far outstripped supply.

Local politicians must now decide whether to go against the 56.4pc of voters who supported the grassroots effort, or enact the controversial legislation opposed by most mainstream parties in the capital.

Despite public support in the German capital, policy specialists in the UK are sceptical. As Sadiq Khan, London’s mayor, openly mulls rent controls for the capital, questions are being raised from afar over whether similar policies would work on home soil with Britain facing its own housing shortage crisis.

“Expropriating properties might sound tempting, but spending €36bn (£31bn) on buying out big landlords won’t do much to help squeezed renters,” says Ant Breach, a researcher at Centre for Cities, a London-based think tank focusing on urban policy.

“The housing crisis is a supply-side problem that needs a supply-side solution. In the UK that means planning reform to boost the supply of new homes is the best way to help renters and future homeowners.”

Supply cannot keep up with demand in any price bracket

Bar chart with 2 data series.

August sales and instructions as % of 2017-2019 average

View as data table, Supply cannot keep up with demand in any price bracket

The chart has 1 X axis displaying categories.

The chart has 1 Y axis displaying %. Range: 0 to 200.

%Agreed salesNew InstructionsUnder £200k£200k-£300k£300k-£500k£500k-£1m£1m+ALL050100150200Savills/TwentyCi

Supply cannot keep up with demand in any price bracket

August sales and instructions as % of 2017-2019 average

End of interactive chart.

Some argue the Bundestag’s top-down approach of rent controls, an attempt to tackle unaffordable rents that stem from a lack of supply, has only worsened problems. Politicians, they say, should instead have focused on building more homes.

In 2020 Berlin imposed an unprecedented five-year rent cap. Payments for all apartments built before 2014 were frozen at their level of June 2019, while tenants could also force landlords to lower rents that were “excessive”. It split the city’s housing into two: regulated and newer, unregulated buildings.

“Berlin’s heavy-handed, failed approach towards housing is a lesson in what not to do,” says John McDonald of think tank the Adam Smith Institute.

“Studies of Berlin’s policy show that artificially suppressing rent decreases availability, access and quality of rental housing, while simultaneously encouraging higher prices elsewhere in the housing market. This is most damaging to immigrants, young people, and minorities who are inevitably least able to access what limited homes remain.”

In May, the capital’s rent controls ended after being ruled unconstitutional, deemed by many as a failure.

“Rent controls fail everywhere they are implemented,” says McDonald. “The only way to fix a housing crisis is to build enough homes where people want to live. Unfortunately, that’s unlikely to happen if Berlin just expropriates private properties once they’re built.” He argues that private construction is essential to alleviate the crisis and that expropriation would only exacerbate supply issues.

Joanna Kusiak, a spokesman for the Berlin campaign, however, defended their approach. She says: “We are for building, but also for public ownership. The current rental income is going towards shareholders, but we would like to use money from rents for building. It makes a big difference who is building.

“The rental freeze was a good thing, but never enough. It allowed people to pay lower rent, but it was an interim solution, not a permanent one.”

Politics aside, some experts worry the referendum will lead to a slowdown in property investments in Berlin, at least temporarily.

“A lot depends on the coalition in Berlin’s senate. [Investment] won’t be completely scared off, there is still lots of activity, but for the next few weeks or month it will be more cautious,” says Stephan Schanz, a senior analyst at abrdn.

“When [rent controls] started we saw a slowdown in activity and less capital investment, this outcome will happen again with the referendum,” he adds, at the same time insisting that the vote has not impacted abrdn’s long-term investments in new builds.

Investment in Berlin's property sector slowed down following the introduction of rent controls CREDIT: Moment RF

But doubts are rising among property executives in Germany, who anticipate the referendum result is more likely to be used as a negotiating tool than a policy to implement. Some green politicians, for instance, have touted the use of the referendum result as a method of getting further concessions from large landlords.

One property executive based in Berlin argues the political situation in Germany makes a full-blooded expropriation unlikely.

They say: “Newly elected mayor Francska Giffey opposed the measure before the ballot, as did many of Germany’s political parties. A question going forward will be whether this can be implemented, and if it doesn’t what should take its place?”

If this is the case, Schanz says more state intervention could be beneficial if the expropriation is declared unconstitutional.

Campaigners, however, are vowing to hold politicians to the vote, adamant they will implement the legislation.

“While there were constitutional issues with the Berlin rental freeze, we don’t expect there to be issues. Although our policy is more radical, socialisation is less constitutionally questionable than rent freezes,” says Kusiak.

“We won on the terms no one expected, we got more than 1m votes, more than any of the political parties. The wind has been changing, but we are not naive and we are prepared to play the role of the watchdog. We reject that it’s a strategic tool, it was a yes or no question, and people voted yes.”

Edited October 7, 2021 by Hancock

[TNS]

I know a few BTL people and the easiest way to kill it would be to abolish all interest relief on the mortgages. Of course, they'll leave it as basic rate relief for years to come through fear of any possible collapse, dip, etc.

[spygirl]

4 hours ago, TheNickos said:

I know a few BTL people and the easiest way to kill it would be to abolish all interest relief on the mortgages. Of course, they'll leave it as basic rate relief for years to come through fear of any possible collapse, dip, etc.

They have.

You only get a ~20% tax credit ie you've got to have a non rental income.

[spygirl]

The way to hurry up the demise is to step up tge aggression on missing tax - HMRC know who owes what.

And levy a charge on the house, which will scare tte shit out the banks. HMRC is more senior than tge banks.

Tge boe could also start making banks hold 10% each year of  capital against io btl loans.

[Wight Flight]

Has anyone actually considered what happens if we chase these leeches out of the market?

It won't be pretty.

[spygirl]

13 hours ago, Wight Flight said:

Has anyone actually considered what happens if we chase these leeches out of the market?

It won't be pretty.

Bank/funder will temporary take ownerships and continue let via an agent.

Happened to my coz, when the block of flats his was in went under.

 

 

[Wight Flight]

17 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Bank/funder will temporary take ownerships and continue let via an agent.

Happened to my coz, when the block of flats his was in went under.

 

 

Yep. Whilst selling the property.

 

[Bilbo]

Running for the exit?

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/business/mildenhall-thetford-and-mildenhall-property-portfolio-sale-8409986

 

[Boon]

13 hours ago, Bilbo said:

Running for the exit?

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/business/mildenhall-thetford-and-mildenhall-property-portfolio-sale-8409986

 

It'll never end, not while interest rates are low.

The above is pretty typical, although a £8m price tag for 88 properties kind of suggests those flats are pretty low-end, in the main the dregs.

Most likely it's the local property developer who has been doing it for 30+ years, thus seen enough HPI to take money out of properties and keep on redoubling.... now at retirement age why not just sell out at close to the top instead of deal with all the hassle.

Every single small to mid sized town has at least one of these characters, IMO. It is quite funny how EAs quote gross yield, which assumes everything is tenanted all the time. 

The corporates much prefer BTR as there are economies of scale but once those kind of properties run out - there are only so many mugs that can be persuaded to live in a fake 'luxury' apartment -  it will be appealing for them to buy a portfolio like this and just pay someone to run it.

[Wight Flight]

1 hour ago, Boon said:

It'll never end, not while interest rates are low

This.

But if they do go up (big if) it will be carnage.

[Noallegiance]

10 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

This.

But if they do go up (big if) it will be carnage.

The trend is the thing. Upward trend in the US 30YR since the beginning of 2020. 

Approaching the kind of length of upward trend that occurred after .com and GFC.

 

When it gets above approx 3.5% then the trend has changed.

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Noallegiance

[UmBongo]

A mass council house building programme will sort out rampant rent price inflation. 

Not that the Government will do anything given their vested interests. I was surprised that Labour never fully addressed this in their 13 years in power. But they were no longer for the common person so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised. 

[Noallegiance]

4 minutes ago, UmBongo said:

A mass council house building programme will sort out rampant rent price inflation. 

Not that the Government will do anything given their vested interests. I was surprised that Labour never fully addressed this in their 13 years in power. But they were no longer for the common person so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised. 

Like I said years ago. Building enough would take materials and manpower we don't have and years to complete.

My ideal scenario would be to let the housing market slump and housebuilders go to the wall then buy up all the cheap shit properties and make them council places.

[spygirl]

7 hours ago, UmBongo said:

A mass council house building programme will sort out rampant rent price inflation. 

Not that the Government will do anything given their vested interests. I was surprised that Labour never fully addressed this in their 13 years in power. But they were no longer for the common person so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised. 

All non Brits who dont earn more than 20k are kicked.

All the remaining ones are removed from benefits and have to pay for public services.

Poof! 10m-15m go.

 

[Don Coglione]

7 hours ago, Noallegiance said:

Like I said years ago. Building enough would take materials and manpower we don't have and years to complete.

My ideal scenario would be to let the housing market slump and housebuilders go to the wall then buy up all the cheap shit properties and make them council places.

They wouldn't meet council standards!

[UmBongo]

12 hours ago, Don Coglione said:

They wouldn't meet council standards!

In that case they could send some workers in and bring them up to code. 

[macca]

On 14/10/2021 at 12:01, Wight Flight said:

This.

But if they do go up (big if) it will be carnage.

Its going to be carnage anyway anyway,, There is no end game from all this greed and corruption that does not end in carnage..

Printing money and giving it to the rich to become debt for the workers was never going to end well!

Slavery of workers must end!

https://wolfstreet.com/2021/10/02/my-wealth-effect-monitor-for-our-money-printer-economy-is-out-in-the-pandemic-the-fed-totally-blew-out-the-already-gigantic-wealth-disparity/