How does Buy to Let END!

[Frank Hovis]

4 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

I think they are just a different way of achieving the lifetime tenancy kind of purchase that seem very popular now. Which I don't necessarily think are a bad thing if you have no one to inherit.

I would rather an institution hoping for my demise than an unknown individual though. A bit scary knowing that someone wants you dead, but you don't know who.

Like this bloke.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_van_Hoogstraten

This was buying houses with sitting tenants on fixed low rents rather than lifetime tenants; this still meant a big discount.

It doesn't detail it there but I remember from the time that if a sitting tenant was in hospital for an extended period then a standard tactic was to go in and remove their staircase.

There were other things and the tenants became sick of the hassle and moved out and the house was sold. Fergus looks like an angel in comparison.

The grenades and death threats were reserved for business associates.

[Don Coglione]

8 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

I think they are just a different way of achieving the lifetime tenancy kind of purchase that seem very popular now. Which I don't necessarily think are a bad thing if you have no one to inherit.

I would rather an institution hoping for my demise than an unknown individual though. A bit scary knowing that someone wants you dead, but you don't know who.

Never has due diligence been more vital, in the literal sense of the word...

[spygirl]

51 minutes ago, Knickerless Turgid said:

I hadn't heard of these, but I did come up with a similar idea a few years ago to help fund our eventual retirement (no kids).

In essence, sell the family home to a landlord at a negotiated discount, then live in the property rent-free until death or death-home beckoned, at which point possession reverts to the landlord.

I had envisaged the landlord being able to carry out regular inspections, to ensure that we were holding up our side of the bargain by maintaining the property to an appropriate standard.

Thinking about it, I imagine a potential landlord would be happier with a single tenant, rather than a married couple.

Both sides rolling the dice; on balance, I reckon the dice are stacked in favour of the tenant?

 

That's a RIO mortgage/equity release.

I'd do that via a equity release/insurancecompany. You need a standard contract to avoid specialist lawyers.

This is France. 

https://vingtparis.com/expert-advice/the-viager-system/

In the UK, currently, cards stacked in LL hand.

[Don Coglione]

10 minutes ago, spygirl said:

That's a RIO mortgage/equity release.

I'd do that via a equity release/insurancecompany. You need a standard contract to avoid specialist lawyers.

This is France. 

https://vingtparis.com/expert-advice/the-viager-system/

In the UK, currently, cards stacked in LL hand.

Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

I was thinking of a water-tight, private arrangement, so as to avoid the arse-raping of formal equity release.

[spygirl]

3 hours ago, Knickerless Turgid said:

Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

I was thinking of a water-tight, private arrangement, so as to avoid the arse-raping of formal equity release.

Itll cost a fortune in legal fees. And not be 100% water tight.

ER will be cheaper.

[Don Coglione]

25 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Itll cost a fortune in legal fees. And not be 100% water tight.

ER will be cheaper.

As you would say, no.

These lifetime tenancies are almost exactly what I had had in mind, without knowing of their existence.

Of course, finding fair value for both parties might well prove tricky.

[spygirl]

2 hours ago, Knickerless Turgid said:

As you would say, no.

These lifetime tenancies are almost exactly what I had had in mind, without knowing of their existence.

Of course, finding fair value for both parties might well prove tricky.

Agreeing a value is simple- both parties need to find a common number to say Yes on.

The expense is creating the legal boilerplate. And sticking to it.

Googling, shows lifetime tenancies outside social LA housing appears to be a v new thing. Most of articles are on various propordee investment sites, mentioning 'buy at 60% BMI!'

Canal.

As with all thing propordee, if you want yo extract equity it's always best to sell up and buy somewhere cheaper.

 

[Happy Renting]

7 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

Like this bloke.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_van_Hoogstraten

This was buying houses with sitting tenants on fixed low rents rather than lifetime tenants; this still meant a big discount.

It doesn't detail it there but I remember from the time that if a sitting tenant was in hospital for an extended period then a standard tactic was to go in and remove their staircase.

There were other things and the tenants became sick of the hassle and moved out and the house was sold. Fergus looks like an angel in comparison.

The grenades and death threats were reserved for business associates.

And going back further, there was Peter Rachman

'Rachmanism' even entered the OED meaning the exploitation of tenants.

[spygirl]

7 hours ago, Knickerless Turgid said:

Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

I was thinking of a water-tight, private arrangement, so as to avoid the arse-raping of formal equity release.

I've thought on this a bit.

It really doesn't work, individual to individual, without some exceptional situation.

Think it through.

The only person with the money to stub up the money is going to be 50+.

So, average house 200k. 50% discount- 100k lump sum paid, to take ownership when occupant dies.

How long then?

50yo tentant? ~35 year life exp.

60 - 25.

70 - 15.

Take that 100k and compound at 3% for those timescale.

Then try compounding 5%.

Remember that the person buying will have to wait those timescales to get a payout.

ER RIO works as they go in a life pool and allow the life co. to hedge some longevity risk.

 

 

[Don Coglione]

7 minutes ago, spygirl said:

I've thought on this a bit.

It really doesn't work, individual to individual, without some exceptional situation.

Think it through.

The only person with the money to stub up the money is going to be 50+.

So, average house 200k. 50% discount- 100k lump sum paid, to take ownership when occupant dies.

How long then?

50yo tentant? ~35 year life exp.

60 - 25.

70 - 15.

Take that 100k and compound at 3% for those timescale.

Then try compounding 5%.

Remember that the person buying will have to wait those timescales to get a payout.

ER RIO works as they go in a life pool and allow the life co. to hedge some longevity risk.

 

 

I tend to agree, I couldn't really find a figure that would work for both parties, although for a property with a presumed value of, say £500k, the potential discount in cash terms might appeal to someone.

The presence of these lifetime tenancies suggest that someone believes the numbers to work though.

[Wight Flight]

2 hours ago, spygirl said:

As with all thing propordee, if you want yo extract equity it's always best to sell up and buy somewhere cheaper.

Not necessarily.

If you own outright a £250k terrace, but have no one to inherit, why not sell it and buy a nice £500k detached bungalow with sea views to see out your days in?

Shrouds don't have pockets.

[Royston]

Oh dear, what a shame, oh well never mind...

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_money_matters/3929400-no-end-in-sight

[eek]

49 minutes ago, Royston said:

Oh dear, what a shame, oh well never mind...

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_money_matters/3929400-no-end-in-sight

Where on earth did they buy a property that has got £70,000 of negative equity at the moment?

 

[spygirl]

52 minutes ago, eek said:

Where on earth did they buy a property that has got £70,000 of negative equity at the moment?

 

We invested in a property for rental as a pension pot. We bought at height of a housing boom where prices were massively inflated.
Recession hit and now we have negative equity of £70,000.
We have a good tenant and the rent services the mortgage but I can't help worrying about the 70 grand deficit.

Theres a few places I can think of.

The normal BTL bust tends to be people buying several shit places in boro/co durham etc, paying ~2x OO price - because they 'look cheap'

Then face a ~30k shiortfall on each.

 

 

[spygirl]

Unfortunately mortgage is interest only.
Had hoped to retire at 60. Husband has arthritis and is in construction industry. We have no other pension in place as this 'investment' was to be our pension.

....

Rent covers mortgage repayments.
Dh is self employed.
We have used the surplus from rent to pay off all other debts we had, credit cards, car loans, etc. Hence the reason we have no other debt.
We have 8 years left to run on our home mortgage and we have £50,000 equity in our home. We bought rental property in 2006 when prices were booming my husband had a very profitable construction business and I was a sahm. Our family are now all adults and independent I have been temping sporadically and am in process of upgrading my skills. I am in full blown menopause and my confidence for getting back into workplace us at an all time low.

Other sites you might think its a troll.

However ..reads genuine.

Bought IO BTL in 2006 @ ~40yo. Used the cash flow to bail out their life style.

Now 15 years later builder hubby hitting the wall.

Not sure why theyve only got 50k equity in OO.

Says a lot about UK. ~45 years of work and 2 houses, 1 IO, and a ~70k deficit to show for it.

Shes an idiot if she thinks shes going to skill up and save up for a pension from early 50s.

 

 

 

 

[Wight Flight]

In case anyone needs cheering up this morning...

https://www.property118.com/3-month-eviction-ban-and-their-fantasy-world/#comments

[spygirl]

1 hour ago, Wight Flight said:

In case anyone needs cheering up this morning...

https://www.property118.com/3-month-eviction-ban-and-their-fantasy-world/#comments

We came to expect this nonsense from the Corbynite extreme left; what is incredible however is that a Conservative Government should be listening to this nonsense and forcing landlords to cover the costs of nonpaying tenants. The fact that it did this for 3 months was bad enough. It meant that many thousands of landlords with nightmare tenants from hell have been unable to evict them and have had to suffer extreme financial stress and mental anguish, as they continue to be ripped off while they cover often huge costs in arrears and damage.

I was under the impression they were all (esp Dr Beck)  voting Labour after Gidiots S24 tax changes.

The whole IO BTL is a big load of bullshit. ARLA lobbied liek fuck to get bans to lend to LL on terms more relaxed than commercial lending.

he big block was bank did not want to lend if they thought theyd not be able to repo the house reasonably quickly. Having a LL own a tenanted property complicates the repo process.

Now, as time goes by, its looking like more n more restrictions are going to be put on rented homes - hardly surprising as the idiot banks n IO BTler have bought so much housing stock - all those IO BTL go bad/get marked down as banks cannot easily repo.

Dr Muppet

problem is not non-paying tenants. Its the bank pulling its lending, asking for loans to repaid in one month.

The thick bitch and he other IO BTL LL have not grasped that.

 

 

 

[Hardhat]

8 hours ago, Wight Flight said:

In case anyone needs cheering up this morning...

https://www.property118.com/3-month-eviction-ban-and-their-fantasy-world/#comments

Choice comment:

"Disgraceful government. I am a landlord where most of my tenants have moved out due to Coronavirus. I have hardly any income at all anymore, I cant re-let them due to lockdown, the banks have said they will help by suspending all mortgage payments for 3 months BUT will add the interest every month onto the initial loan thus increasing it by tens of thousands over the period of the loan (not very helpful after all). The government says i'm not entitled to any money as a result of being a landlord, i cannot even claim universal credit!. I have a family and my own residential mortgage, bills to pay, food to put on the table. Incredible.

Ive paid my taxes every year, for decades...for what?... So I now have, no income, loans increased, no help from anywhere!!!......well that's being a landlord for you in the UK. I'm selling everything up asap, and then moving abroad for a better quality of life where people who takes risks, pay their taxes and work hard are actually rewarded and not penalized by the government.

Its also interesting the amount of help for tenants but not landlord. Ive never met a landlord that causes their tenant pain and suffering so that the tenant does not have to pay the rent every month. Ive been in the business over 15 years only and never heard or seen a landlord causing tenants any heartache, in fact its almost always the other way around. Let the government reap what they sow. This will come back to haunt them soon."

 

It's almost as if there's an answer staring them in the face...

[spygirl]

1 hour ago, Hardhat said:

Choice comment:

"Disgraceful government. I am a landlord where most of my tenants have moved out due to Coronavirus. I have hardly any income at all anymore, I cant re-let them due to lockdown, the banks have said they will help by suspending all mortgage payments for 3 months BUT will add the interest every month onto the initial loan thus increasing it by tens of thousands over the period of the loan (not very helpful after all). The government says i'm not entitled to any money as a result of being a landlord, i cannot even claim universal credit!. I have a family and my own residential mortgage, bills to pay, food to put on the table. Incredible.

Ive paid my taxes every year, for decades...for what?... So I now have, no income, loans increased, no help from anywhere!!!......well that's being a landlord for you in the UK. I'm selling everything up asap, and then moving abroad for a better quality of life where people who takes risks, pay their taxes and work hard are actually rewarded and not penalized by the government.

Its also interesting the amount of help for tenants but not landlord. Ive never met a landlord that causes their tenant pain and suffering so that the tenant does not have to pay the rent every month. Ive been in the business over 15 years only and never heard or seen a landlord causing tenants any heartache, in fact its almost always the other way around. Let the government reap what they sow. This will come back to haunt them soon."

 

It's almost as if there's an answer staring them in the face...

15 years. So peak io btl fuckwittery.

2 words - business risk.

As far as moving abroad, to countries who welcome risk takers... jesus

 

I've had 2 tenants just leave with no notice, because it was convenient for them to do so - they didnt like "my" rules on not allowing every Tom, Dick and Harry to visit the property and put their housemates at risk during lockdown (HMO's). Yet if I'd tried to evict them for some reason I wouldn't have been able to start proceedings. Almost a third of the remaining tenants aren't paying anything at all even though some are furloughed and appear to be having a jolly old time judging by the amount of empty alcohol bottles that are accumulating outside the properties. A proportion of the paying tenants have adopted an "I'll pay when I can" attitude and they believe it's their right to take a payment holiday, because "you can get a mortgage holiday cant you?"!
My rent income have decreased by over 50% due to unpaying tenants and the fact that I've not been able to fill empty rooms/properties.
This, along with the adverse effects on the holiday let business has been an absolute nightmare all round.

Err has the LL not heard of quiet enjoyment? HMO LLs are worst of the worse.

The rest of the comments just confirm that banks should gave been lending io btl mortgages. Collection of fucktards.

 

 

 

[spygirl]

Ah... the old pay 2 months rent and stop paying rent trick.

I bet that tenant will be a) foriegn.

Or b) on bennies

One of the many affected by the situation, I have suffered helplessly since late last year. My tenant stopped paying rent last December, having moved in September 2019.
So he has occupied my property on a 6 month AST which would have ended legally with due notice on 15Th April this year. Obviously he is still there living rent free and although Section 8 and 21 notices were served before the Covid Lockdown the whole thing is frozen.

[spygirl]

Maybe LL need to reduce rents for the nice, rent paying tenants?

That way, theyll reduce their chances of picking up scum due to high tenant churn..

 

[eek]

On 06/06/2020 at 11:54, spygirl said:

We came to expect this nonsense from the Corbynite extreme left; what is incredible however is that a Conservative Government should be listening to this nonsense and forcing landlords to cover the costs of nonpaying tenants. The fact that it did this for 3 months was bad enough. It meant that many thousands of landlords with nightmare tenants from hell have been unable to evict them and have had to suffer extreme financial stress and mental anguish, as they continue to be ripped off while they cover often huge costs in arrears and damage.

I was under the impression they were all (esp Dr Beck)  voting Labour after Gidiots S24 tax changes.

The whole IO BTL is a big load of bullshit. ARLA lobbied liek fuck to get bans to lend to LL on terms more relaxed than commercial lending.

he big block was bank did not want to lend if they thought theyd not be able to repo the house reasonably quickly. Having a LL own a tenanted property complicates the repo process.

Now, as time goes by, its looking like more n more restrictions are going to be put on rented homes - hardly surprising as the idiot banks n IO BTler have bought so much housing stock - all those IO BTL go bad/get marked down as banks cannot easily repo.

Dr Muppet

problem is not non-paying tenants. Its the bank pulling its lending, asking for loans to repaid in one month.

The thick bitch and he other IO BTL LL have not grasped that.

Interestingly her complaint didn't seem to get very far as the ban of evictions has been extended to August 23rd see https://www.property118.com/eviction-ban-extended-another-2-months/ 

Dr Muppet sadly hasn't made a comment on that post yet.

[sancho panza]

23 hours ago, spygirl said:

15 years. So peak io btl fuckwittery.

2 words - business risk.

As far as moving abroad, to countries who welcome risk takers... jesus

 

I've had 2 tenants just leave with no notice, because it was convenient for them to do so - they didnt like "my" rules on not allowing every Tom, Dick and Harry to visit the property and put their housemates at risk during lockdown (HMO's). Yet if I'd tried to evict them for some reason I wouldn't have been able to start proceedings. Almost a third of the remaining tenants aren't paying anything at all even though some are furloughed and appear to be having a jolly old time judging by the amount of empty alcohol bottles that are accumulating outside the properties. A proportion of the paying tenants have adopted an "I'll pay when I can" attitude and they believe it's their right to take a payment holiday, because "you can get a mortgage holiday cant you?"!
My rent income have decreased by over 50% due to unpaying tenants and the fact that I've not been able to fill empty rooms/properties.
This, along with the adverse effects on the holiday let business has been an absolute nightmare all round.

Err has the LL not heard of quiet enjoyment? HMO LLs are worst of the worse.

The rest of the comments just confirm that banks should gave been lending io btl mortgages. Collection of fucktards.

 

 

 

There's a particualr place in hell for HMO LL's from what I've seen and heard.

 

[sancho panza]

On 06/06/2020 at 10:25, Wight Flight said:

In case anyone needs cheering up this morning...

https://www.property118.com/3-month-eviction-ban-and-their-fantasy-world/#comments

I like this savvy one

Reply to the comment left by David Twitchen at 03/06/2020 - 04:35
I envisage that ( savvy ) landlords will be strenuously vetting ( including Social media profiles ) of tenants, Post -Covid.19
In fact, we are already being approached by landlords asking for advice on selecting and setting up tenancies ( usually following a bad experience they've had )

[eek]

1 hour ago, sancho panza said:

I like this savvy one

Reply to the comment left by David Twitchen at 03/06/2020 - 04:35
I envisage that ( savvy ) landlords will be strenuously vetting ( including Social media profiles ) of tenants, Post -Covid.19
In fact, we are already being approached by landlords asking for advice on selecting and setting up tenancies ( usually following a bad experience they've had )

That’s until the “savvy” landlord has a empty property and starts panicking.

the other 99.999% will just take the first tenant that comes along regardless of the reference.