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spygirl

First rule of shit new build club ....

Which way do you think average UK house prices will move, relative to now in April 2020?  

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  1. 1. Which way do you think average UK house prices will move, relative to now in April 2020?



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.. is you dont admit that your shit new builds are shit.

And, when you get sued, you get the buyer to sign an NDA.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47826166

This could see the UK housebuilders destroyed.

Quite a lot - 20% - probably need knocking down and rebuilding.

This will end up with getting an external, independent surveyor in to look at the last 10-15 years of new builds.

Wow.

Then everyone realises  shit new builds are shit new builds,. so wont want to buy them, forcing the prices down even more.

So disgruntled HTBer starts suing builder, UKGOV, surveyor.

 

-----

 

Edit by spunko: adding a poll, nicked idea from another site.

 

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I do wonder at some point if thère will be a huge awakening / change in sentiment and people see these new builds for the horrible wastes of land they are, and they plummet in value (relative to older houses).

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There are exceptions but generally the poor building started in the early 80s when the increased speed of building enabled by timber framing took hold and houses were thrown up in the shortest possible time.

Knowing this I deliberately sought a pre 80s block built double skinned house, without cavity wall insulation, and my deputy did just the same last year.

Timber framed 1980s - 2020s houses will become the new PPI as they start falling apart.

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What people generally §don't realise is the difference in quality between different materials - over and above the general suitability and issues with timber framed buildings. I bought some phenolic board offsets, should be good I though against damp (for trailer bed).  In fact the bonding between the substrate (plywood is very poor) it it is certainly not external grade ply, making the phenolic coat virtually useless if ANY damp can get to board edges. In the same way very poor materials are being used throughout new builds - kitchen carcasses will little / no holding strength of the screws holding them together as the billboard core is more air than material, MDF finish which will degrade when exposed to any level of dampness utterly destroying it in as little as days. These are effectively synthetic products made to look like durable/quality materials when they simply are not. If it is being done at this level then I assume the same is being done as much as possible across the board unless some strict grading criteria are applied to the materials - C - grade construction timber for example.

I bought some pairs of wooded garage doors from auction they were peanuts to buy there as excess stock/seconds. One pair were made of tantalised timber, others were the cheapest pine with no weather treatment whatsoever. The latter the framing was OK (ish) but the infill panelling  thin (T&G)  and pinned together with the slightest finishing nails, I couldn't;t believe it, in the wet the T&G expands and pops the cladding right off the frame. These doors were destined for large house builder installs, marked with builder and plot no. Even painted they will not stand up over time as all paints eventually crack and allow ingress of water - particularly on T&G. 

 

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Yup. My own particular signifier of corners cut and done on the cheap is timber framing but even this can be used properly to build a durable house.  The problem is speed of build, cheapness of materials, and quality of construction.

The root problem is that people buy houses upon specification without considering the build quality.  You wouldn't buy a £20k  car without poring over build quality reports but a £450k new build Persimmon is purchased sight unseen.

The difference to the PPI scandal is that when these homes start to fall down the house builders will have paid their bonuses and dividends, won't be bailed out, and the cupboard will be bare.

 

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Do not forget help to buy which made these houses for some the only game in town. That will be one of the biggest mis selling issues too much bigger than ppi

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2 minutes ago, ad_ceng said:

Do not forget help to buy which made these houses for some the only game in town. That will be one of the biggest mis selling issues too much bigger than ppi

And 30%+ more expensive.

You can probably go after the builders on RICO charges.

Seriously.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, spygirl 🏆 said:

.. is you dont admit that your shit new builds are shit.

And, when you get sued, you get the buyer to sign an NDA.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47826166

This could see the UK housebuilders destroyed.

Quite a lot - 20% - probably need knocking down and rebuilding.

This will end up with getting an external, independent surveyor in to look at the last 10-15 years of new builds.

Wow.

 

 

Then everyone realises  shit new builds are shit new builds,. so wont want to buy them, forcing the prices down even more.

So disgruntled HTBer starts suing builder, UKGOV, surveyor.

 

About 8 years ago I went to a large new build site because I wanted so soil pipe and yellow gas pipe. I figured they'd be loados of offcuts - I was right xD

Got speaking to so EE contractors.

Their consensus was that the build standard and quality of build was shite and they would never buy one.

I visited a new build site recently. In the show home all the heads of the ground and first floor door casings on one elevation had dropped so that the dorors would not close. The builder had placed fancy, heavy brass, feature door stops by just those doors and no others to keep them open and people viewing from attempting to close them.

Edited by Hopeful

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Chap featured in the report is a couple of miles away from me. There has been issues with that area. It is huge, construction began in 2007/08. Two brothers I know bought a 3 storey house between them in 2009. There is just one road off the estate that serves a few thousand residents. A work colleague who moved down from Leeds bought a brand new coach house flat there (2016 build) - despite our warnings about the limited access. You can't tell some people. 9_9 Apparently it's rooms are smaller than the 2000s built coach house flat she bought brand new in Leeds some years earlier!

FFS it seems that you have less consumer rights buying a £300k house than you do buying a £30 pair of jeans. 9_9

Many contractors are not paid that well, are they? I think I read on TOS that they might be paid something like £60 a day at the time. When you read about the obscene bonuses that the bosses get (Persimmon and the furore about the 'Help to Buy') then there's little excuse for paying the contractors a bit more for their grind and investing in higher quality materials.

My dad's 1950s house is rock solid - and it was a bloody council house! 60 years later these house builders have no excuse for building such crap.

 

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13 minutes ago, spygirl 🏆 said:

And 30%+ more expensive.

You can probably go after the builders on RICO charges.

Seriously.

 

I think that is the way a case will go the government intervened and keep prices artificially inflated. Everyone I know who did htb did it as they wanted somewhere of there own (not un reasonable) none of them have the first idea how they will pay it off after 5 years. Like student loans it will never be paid off . 

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I've been wibbling on about this for ages. 

There's going to be a national scandal in about 20 years as a lot of these builds start to fall apart en-masse IMO. I've worked on a few new build estates and I wouldn't have one if you offered to swop it for a packet of cheesy wotsits.

As a country we are just standing there and watching them sling this shit up though, it's not like some of these firms are even trying to hide how crap many of them are. 

Caveat emptor. 

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15 minutes ago, UmBongo said:

Chap featured in the report is a couple of miles away from me. There has been issues with that area. It is huge, construction began in 2007/08. Two brothers I know bought a 3 storey house between them in 2009. There is just one road off the estate that serves a few thousand residents. A work colleague who moved down from Leeds bought a brand new coach house flat there (2016 build) - despite our warnings about the limited access. You can't tell some people. 9_9 Apparently it's rooms are smaller than the 2000s built coach house flat she bought brand new in Leeds some years earlier!

FFS it seems that you have less consumer rights buying a £300k house than you do buying a £30 pair of jeans. 9_9

Many contractors are not paid that well, are they? I think I read on TOS that they might be paid something like £60 a day at the time. When you read about the obscene bonuses that the bosses get (Persimmon and the furore about the 'Help to Buy') then there's little excuse for paying the contractors a bit more for their grind and investing in higher quality materials.

My dad's 1950s house is rock solid - and it was a bloody council house! 60 years later these house builders have no excuse for building such crap.

 

Yes. And No.

Yes, because people just accept it.

Where as if it was a mouldly  Apple from tesco  theyd be right back arguing.

 

No, as the new build is covered by a fitness to sell laws.

This might open the flood gates.

 

3 minutes ago, Sgt Hartman said:

I've been wibbling on about this for ages. 

There's going to be a national scandal in about 20 10 years as a lot of these builds start to fall apart en-masse IMO. I've worked on a few new build estates and I wouldn't have one if you offered to swop it for a packet of cheesy wotsits.

As a country we are just standing there and watching them sling this shit up though, it's not like some of these firms are even trying to hide how crap many of them are. 

Caveat emptor. 

 

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28 minutes ago, spygirl 🏆 said:

And 30%+ more expensive.

You can probably go after the builders on RICO charges.

Seriously.

 

You’ve hidden your dodgy typing so well on that post that I can’t spot it, been poring over it for ages now and I just can’t find it. 

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18 minutes ago, UmBongo said:

Many contractors are not paid that well, are they? I think I read on TOS that they might be paid something like £60 a day at the time. When you read about the obscene bonuses that the bosses get (Persimmon and the furore about the 'Help to Buy') then there's little excuse for paying the contractors a bit more for their grind and investing in higher quality materials.

 

Yeah pay is still shit. Scaffolder mate of mine is still on £10 a hour despite being in the trade over 10 years. Another mate who's a general labourer is on £8. Problem is soon as demand starts picking up you just get all the EE labourers flooding over to keep a lid on wage inflation, who then fuck off home once the industry starts taping out.

Out of all my mates in the trades the only one who's made a very good living is the guy who runs his family plumbing firm. Even the two self-employed sparkies I know aren't rolling in it.

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3 minutes ago, spygirl 🏆 said:

Yes. And No.

Yes, because people just accept it.

Where as if it was a mouldly  Apple from tesco  theyd be right back arguing.

 

No, as the new build is covered by a fitness to sell laws.

This might open the flood gates.

 

 

It will be a long drawn out process as was PPI.  I've known people who have tried to make claims for subsidence but when it's happened slowly over forty years it is very hard to prove proximate cause: original build, tree too close, letting the house go damp, DIY affecting the wall etc.

With no clear reason given the time elapsed the insurer very rarely pays out.

However many times people read about the state of these new builds they keep buying them because they are easy to buy and they prioritize having four en suite bedrooms over a smaller but much better built house.

We're going the way of China: a veneer of bling and newness scraped across rubble and filler.

Just now, gibbon said:

Yeah pay is still shit. Scaffolder mate of mine is still on £10 a hour despite being in the trade over 10 years. Another mate who's a general labourer is on £8. Problem is soon as demand starts picking up you just get all the EE labourers flooding over to keep a lid on wage inflation, who then fuck off home once the industry starts taping out.

Out of all my mates in the trades the only one who's made a very good living is the guy who runs his family plumbing firm. Even the two self-employed sparkies I know aren't rolling in it.

That's shocking for a scaffolder; it's skilled work and hard physically.

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2 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

That's shocking for a scaffolder; it's skilled work and hard physically.

Yup, it's just amazing he's practically on the same wedge he was on when we were 18. 

Only way to make decent money in the trades seems to be being self-employed paper chaser, going round the country doing price work, get in and out quick as possible doing the shittest job imaginable. Not a job I'd want not giving a fuck about your craft.

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4 minutes ago, gibbon said:

Yup, it's just amazing he's practically on the same wedge he was on when we were 18. 

Only way to make decent money in the trades seems to be being self-employed paper chaser, going round the country doing price work, get in and out quick as possible doing the shittest job imaginable. Not a job I'd want not giving a fuck about your craft.

There is decent money in having your own scaffolding or groundwork company as there aren't many about so it's a semi-monopoly.

The staff are however incredibly hard to manage owing to their being a type: strong and short tempered.  There aren't many management jobs where you have to be able to beat your employees in a fight.

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1 hour ago, Sgt Hartman said:

I've been wibbling on about this for ages. 

There's going to be a national scandal in about 20 years as a lot of these builds start to fall apart en-masse IMO. I've worked on a few new build estates and I wouldn't have one if you offered to swop it for a packet of cheesy wotsits.

As a country we are just standing there and watching them sling this shit up though, it's not like some of these firms are even trying to hide how crap many of them are. 

Caveat emptor. 

About the same time that people wake up to s106/CIL legalized bribes hopefully. 

"so you let them build substandard houses anywhere they wanted, as long as they promised to give 30 grand to the local primary school?" 

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2 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

There are exceptions but generally the poor building started in the early 80s when the increased speed of building enabled by timber framing took hold and houses were thrown up in the shortest possible time.

Knowing this I deliberately sought a pre 80s block built double skinned house, without cavity wall insulation, and my deputy did just the same last year.

Timber framed 1980s - 2020s houses will become the new PPI as they start falling apart.

 

jigsaw.jpg

jigsaw2.jpg

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A few friends of mine are in the trades. To a man they've all gone self employed in the last 10 years. One thing I've noticed is that although they can get paid a lot more as they keep a lot more of the money than when they're working for someone else. They need to spend a lot more time doing things they don't get paid for such as pricing work, chasing payments, accounts etc. which they aren't necessarily any good at. I'm fairly sure their hourly rate works out about the same now just with a lot more arse ache.  

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Posted (edited)

Have a look at whose's on the NHBC (the one doing the guarantees) board.

5 minutes ago, assetrichcashpoor said:

A few friends of mine are in the trades.....

......They need to spend a lot more time doing things they don't get paid for such as pricing work, chasing payments, accounts etc. which they aren't necessarily any good at.  

That's the killer.  And they grow too big, beyond their competence.  Often go bust.  Seen it a million times.  But TBF, true in many industries.  Had a friend going self employed who was smart enough to hire in sales, etc support as accepted it was not his thing.  Doing really well now and can generate his own sales.

Edited by Harley

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