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SNACR

Ta Ta to Tata

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Tata selling Jaguar Land Rover to the perpetual underperformer that is the sprawling group which owns Peugeot, Citroen, Nissan etc. etc. I guess.

I don't know who keeps lending them the money to fund these acquisitions; per the reports I've read they have materially reduced the quality of Nissans.

One huge car company that makes every car that little bit worse than before their ownership. And they're probably loss making before French state aid is taken into account.

 

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

Tata selling Jaguar Land Rover to the perpetual underperformer that is the sprawling group which owns Peugeot, Citroen, Nissan etc. etc. I guess.

I don't know who keeps lending them the money to fund these acquisitions; per the reports I've read they have materially reduced the quality of Nissans.

One huge car company that makes every car that little bit worse than before their ownership. And they're probably loss making before French state aid is taken into account.

 

That, as well as the collapsed Port Talbot merger ?

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:D

Most of the car industry is incestuous, all the large manufacturers swop bits or collaborate on new chassis, engines etc.

Renault supply diesel engines to Mercedes, Mazda MX-5 and Alfa Spyder are the same car.

Fiat and Ford use the same small car chassis

The list goes on and on.

Oh and Peugeot came near top of a recent reliability survey, BMW were bottom, just a few places below Audi, Mercedes etc.

 

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

Tata selling Jaguar Land Rover to the perpetual underperformer that is the sprawling group which owns Peugeot, Citroen, Nissan etc. etc. I guess.

I don't know who keeps lending them the money to fund these acquisitions; per the reports I've read they have materially reduced the quality of Nissans.

One huge car company that makes every car that little bit worse than before their ownership. And they're probably loss making before French state aid is taken into account.

 

When considering a reliable car purchase, if you stick to the rule that it must not be built by the French nor must it contain any significant French made parts, it’s a good starting point IMO. Design input by a French person is OK. Japanese cars where they have collaborated with the French in the manufacturing are significantly worse than when they are built in Japan, so you even have to be wary of some Toyotas now. 

2 minutes ago, Option5 said:

:D

Most of the car industry is incestuous, all the large manufacturers swop bits or collaborate on new chassis, engines etc.

Renault supply diesel engines to Mercedes, Mazda MX-5 and Alfa Spyder are the same car.

Fiat and Ford use the same small car chassis

The list goes on and on.

Oh and Peugeot came near top of a recent reliability survey, BMW were bottom, just a few places below Audi, Mercedes etc.

 

Have never heard of any Peugeot being more reliable than a Japanese car built in Japan, my mate’s Peugeots are rubbish, but I guess stranger things have happened - was it the 2008? That seems a pretty good car if you like that small fake  4x4 look (I don’t).

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24 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

When considering a reliable car purchase, if you stick to the rule that it must not be built by the French nor must it contain any significant French made parts, it’s a good starting point IMO. Design input by a French person is OK. Japanese cars where they have collaborated with the French in the manufacturing are significantly worse than when they are built in Japan, so you even have to be wary of some Toyotas now. 

Have never heard of any Peugeot being more reliable than a Japanese car built in Japan, my mate’s Peugeots are rubbish, but I guess stranger things have happened - was it the 2008? That seems a pretty good car if you like that small fake  4x4 look (I don’t).

Scotty Kilmer on YouTube is excellent for assessing cars' reliability.  Generally he says Toyota or Honda but his message is more nuanced than that and depends upon the particular model and its age.

For instance he rates a new or nearly new Toyota Prius highly but says on no account buy one at eight years old or younger with a high mileage as you are likely to end up with a $5k bill for the generator and battery.

The top five selling cars in the US last I looked were all Toyota and Honda bar maybe the Ford F150 pick up truck which IIRC he also rates because their sheer volume sold over the years means build has been refined and parts are cheap.

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I asked one of the senior finance guys at JLR about how they felt TATA were as owners of the business. They were very positive about them, understandably has they had invested heavily in the business. They also said that TATA were very hands off and allowed the management autonomy to run the business.  

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21 minutes ago, sleepwello'nights said:

I asked one of the senior finance guys at JLR about how they felt TATA were as owners of the business. They were very positive about them, understandably has they had invested heavily in the business. They also said that TATA were very hands off and allowed the management autonomy to run the business.  

Sounds like a classic era for them in that case.

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2 hours ago, sleepwello'nights said:

I asked one of the senior finance guys at JLR about how they felt TATA were as owners of the business. They were very positive about them, understandably has they had invested heavily in the business. They also said that TATA were very hands off and allowed the management autonomy to run ruin the business.  

Management *always* needs parameters.

What good for management is not always good for the shareholders and the business - see GE.

 

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37 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Management *always* needs parameters.

What good for management is not always good for the shareholders and the business - see GE.

 

Warren Buffet has a hands off approach. The parameters he looks for is return on capital employed, he doesn't micro manage his businesses or sell off their assets and make them lease them back. 

I worked for a US company who allowed their operating units a lot of autonomy but were quite strict in enforcing a 5 yearly review of their product lines. The review entailed analysing their sales into a matrix of margin and volume. The intention being to identify high margin high volume products to concentrate resources on. Low margin low volume products being dropped. 

Those kinds of discipline are essentially looking at market forces which is what all businesses should be mindful of. Its too easy and tempting to fall into the trap of this is what we've always done. Unfortunately we see happening all too often. 

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6 minutes ago, sleepwello'nights said:

Warren Buffet has a hands off approach. The parameters he looks for is return on capital employed, he doesn't micro manage his businesses or sell off their assets and make them lease them back. 

I worked for a US company who allowed their operating units a lot of autonomy but were quite strict in enforcing a 5 yearly review of their product lines. The review entailed analysing their sales into a matrix of margin and volume. The intention being to identify high margin high volume products to concentrate resources on. Low margin low volume products being dropped. 

Those kinds of discipline are essentially looking at market forces which is what all businesses should be mindful of. Its too easy and tempting to fall into the trap of this is what we've always done. Unfortunately we see happening all too often. 

Well return on capital employed is a parameter - and a good one for business.

A 5 year cycle of cutting low margin low value products is good.

Ive seen loads of businesses cut high margin, low value business whilst throwing cash away on a high value, negative margin business - theyd mot accounted for all the costs.

If add, a simple return on capital hurdle for euro car company would see 80% of them shut.

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9 hours ago, Hopeful said:

That, as well as the collapsed Port Talbot merger ?

It will have no effect on Port toilet ,they are spending more money down there now than any time in the last 25 years 

This is just a guess on my part but the partnership was nothing more than a marriage of convenience some sort of back door selling to the rest of the world when we leave the EU is my guess   ,they have a similar deal with Norway ,the EU realised what the game was and blocked the deal  

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8 hours ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

When considering a reliable car purchase, if you stick to the rule that it must not be built by the French nor must it contain any significant French made parts, it’s a good starting point IMO. Design input by a French person is OK. Japanese cars where they have collaborated with the French in the manufacturing are significantly worse than when they are built in Japan, so you even have to be wary of some Toyotas now. 

Have never heard of any Peugeot being more reliable than a Japanese car built in Japan, my mate’s Peugeots are rubbish, but I guess stranger things have happened - was it the 2008? That seems a pretty good car if you like that small fake  4x4 look (I don’t).

BCM`s from hell the French can`t do electrics but are insisting on making them as complicated as hell

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9 hours ago, Option5 said:

:D

Most of the car industry is incestuous, all the large manufacturers swop bits or collaborate on new chassis, engines etc.

Renault supply diesel engines to Mercedes, Mazda MX-5 and Alfa Spyder are the same car.

Fiat and Ford use the same small car chassis

The list goes on and on.

Oh and Peugeot came near top of a recent reliability survey, BMW were bottom, just a few places below Audi, Mercedes etc.

 

For what models ? obviously the Titan as that`s a Kangoo in a different dress 

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23 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

For what models ? obviously the Titan as that`s a Kangoo in a different dress 

A180D and A200D front wheel drive models. Smart car and Twingo are the same basic car.

New pickup truck (X class?) Is based on the Nissan Navara/Renault Alaskan.

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58 minutes ago, Option5 said:

A180D and A200D front wheel drive models. Smart car and Twingo are the same basic car.

New pickup truck (X class?) Is based on the Nissan Navara/Renault Alaskan.

Cheers it was the engines i was interested in the rest i knew apart from the twingo as a smart car is rear engineed  ,i thoughtthe twingo is Toyota aygo pug 107 platform etc 

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19 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

Cheers it was the engines i was interested in the rest i knew apart from the twingo as a smart car is rear engineed  ,i thoughtthe twingo is Toyota aygo pug 107 platform etc 

Latest generation Twingo is rear engined.

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