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Frank Hovis

PreYounger Dryas Civilisations and the Archaeological Establishment

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The Younger Dryas event was a sudden cooling of the earth around 13,000 BC which was associated with initial massive inundation and terminated equally suddenly with a rapid rise in temrperatures, and further massive inundations, about 11,500 BC.  There were multiple species extinctions during the Younger Dryas.

The earliest evidence for civilisation dates from shortly after 11,500 BC.  In particular Gobekli Tepe from about 11,000 BC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

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As an ex-archaeologist a question that came up when I was first studying it was: why did civilisation arise when it did?  There are many theories but they cluster around the warming and inundation at the end of the Younger Dryas flooidng low level and very productive coastal zones and pushing population densities beyond their normal point leading to conflicts and the need to organise into increasingly bigger bands for protection.

As to why it hadn't happened before the answer was that there was no particular reason for it to happen this time above all the previous similar events but this time it did and it only needs to happen once.

 

There is a vast body of literature and multiple YouTube videos that claim that civilisation existed before the Younger Dryas and that Gobekli Tepe, Egypt and Assyria had their early starts from the memory of these previous civilisations.

The evidence falls into two parts:

Mythical - there are repeated references in mythologies across the world to elder civilisations who were far more advanced than their successors.  Atlantis is one of these.

Physical - lots of oddly advanced artefcats exist in the earliest contexts of Egyptian archaeology in particular.  Flawless polished statues of the hardest rock with evidence of machine tools.  Single piece granite columns with perfectly symmetrical carving; far in advance of anything even the Romans and Greeks were making.  On many of these there are heiroglyphs but these are scratchy and inferior and look like graffitti upon the statues.  There is also the water erosion in the enclosure of teh Sphinx, that the best built pyramids are the earliest, and several unexplained underground sites.

It is very persuasive and the best work is probably Graham Hancock's Fingerprints of the Gods.

 

There are also frequent claims that the archaeological establishment is trying to cover this up because it fails to fit into the existing narrative.  I call nonsense on this and the actual reasons being:

Egyptian Department of Antiquities - this is accused of deliberately hiding pre Old Dynasty evidence by refusing permission to excavate sites.  I think this has a simple explanantion: money.  Archaeologists tend to be brassic and want permission to dig for free so it is denied, if somebody offered the Antquities Department £10m to drill a dirty great hole in the Sphinx then they would be allowed to do so.

The academic Archaeological establishment - this is accused of suppressing research upon anything outside its set narratives in the manner of the Catholic Church in Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code.

I find this last particularly laughable.  All archaeologists would love to be as rich and famous as those in more sexy disciplines such as Astronomy and Computing.  They all want to be Indiana Jones / Lara Croft.

The problem with all of the evidence above is that it is either pure theory or, where concrete, out of context and stratification and so undatable.  Archaeology works upon hard evidence.

 

If anybody ever discovers a genuine intact and datable pre Younger Dryas site then the archaeological establishment will be turning cartwheels as suddenly what is a fairly set timeline can be totally revised, archaeology becomes news and those who write the best books become wealthy.

I think that such a site may well exist buried out under the Egyptian desert but until or unless it turns up then the earlier civilisation remains at the speculative stage and as such open to lots of cranks as well as decent researchers.

 

There are loads of videos on YouTube but take with a pinch of salt any that talk about psychic civilisations.

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...God sent an meteorite that hit the ice sheet in Greenland causing massive melting which caused a rapid rise in sea level causing Noahs flood and wiping out the Nephilim.

The crater was recently found.

A massive crater hides beneath Greenland’s ice

Quote

Using airborne ice-penetrating radar, scientists have discovered a 31-kilometer-wide crater — larger than the city of Paris — buried under as much as 930 meters of ice in northwest Greenland.

The meteorite that slammed into Earth and formed the pit would have been about 1.5 kilometers across, researchers say. That’s large enough to have caused significant environmental damage across the Northern Hemisphere, a team led by glaciologist Kurt Kjær of the University of Copenhagen reports November 14 in Science Advances.

Although the crater has not been dated, data from glacial debris as well as ice-flow simulations suggest that the impact may have happened during the Pleistocene Epoch, between 2.6 million and 11,700 years ago. The discovery could breathe new life into a controversial hypothesis that suggests that an impact about 13,000 years ago triggered a mysterious 1,000-year cold snap known as the Younger Dryas (SN: 7/7/18, p. 18).

 

111418_cg_crater_inline2_370.jpg

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Posted (edited)

I'm a firm believer (with no evidence of course, so just a belief) that there is a missing period of human civilization. 

Occasionally if I'm at a works dinner and conversation is slow one of my kickstarters is to turn the conversation around to stuff like this. Most people have theories that they like to discuss.

I couple it with the question: if we all got wiped out today, how long do you think you'd have to wait before a future civilisation could see no evidence of our existence?

Edited by Roger_Mellie

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3 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

I'm a firm believer (with no evidence of course, so just a belief) that there is a missing period of human civilization. 

Occasionally if I'm at a works dinner and conversation is slow one of my kickstarters is to turn the conversation around to stuff like this, most people have theories that they like to discuss, along with the question: if we all got wiped out today, how long do you think you'd have to wait before a future civilisation could see no evidence of our existence?

And particularly if we were wiped out in the manner of the Younger Dryas.  Huge walls of water sweeping across the land crushing everything, volcanoes spring up, and then everything buried benath a mile of ice for two thousand years before a rapid melting of the ice leading to even more floods sweeping across the land.

Outside of deep mines and bunkers there would be nothing left in the UK.

2 minutes ago, stokiescum said:

The problem is your looking at Iran Iraq has very possable rivals to Egypt has in old civilisations not easy for evil white man to go pokeing about

Indeed.

I am referencing Egypt because Egypt has thrown up the most physical evidence; which may only because it has been far more open to archaeologists.

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1 minute ago, Frank Hovis said:

And particularly if we were wiped out in the manner of the Younger Dryas.  Huge walls of water sweeping across the land crushing everything, volcanoes spring up, and then everything buried benath a mile of ice for two thousand years before a rapid melting of the ice leading to even more floods sweeping across the land.

Outside of deep mines and bunkers there would be nothing left in the UK.

The UK wasn't under ice during this period. That was about 20,000 years ago. 

There were glaciers etc and small ice sheets in jockland etc but not the coverage that existed at the last glacial maximum. 

The younger dryas is also known the the loch Lomond stadial. 

Finally me geography degree has a purpose. :Old:

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

And particularly if we were wiped out in the manner of the Younger Dryas.  Huge walls of water sweeping across the land crushing everything, volcanoes spring up, and then everything buried benath a mile of ice for two thousand years before a rapid melting of the ice leading to even more floods sweeping across the land.

Outside of deep mines and bunkers there would be nothing left in the UK.

What about the underground infrastructure? Subsea and underground pipes and cables?

Realistically they could survive for 10s of thousands of years, pretty much in tact. Imagine being an archaeologist in 100,000 years finding a cable from England to America and just thinking 'huh'? Then finding them everywhere. I wonder what they would think we used them for.

Imagine if a few million years from now there was a highly evolved race of giant rodents, who upon finding an underground pipe network assumed that their miniature forebears had managed to construct an immense transportation network that avoided their overground predators. But just how did their tiny ancestors manage such a marvel of engineering? Probably aliens wot did it.

Edited by Roger_Mellie

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4 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

And particularly if we were wiped out in the manner of the Younger Dryas.  Huge walls of water sweeping across the land crushing everything, volcanoes spring up, and then everything buried benath a mile of ice for two thousand years before a rapid melting of the ice leading to even more floods sweeping across the land.

Outside of deep mines and bunkers there would be nothing left in the UK.

Indeed.

I am referencing Egypt because Egypt has thrown up the most physical evidence; which may only because it has been far more open to archaeologists.

Your looking at the book of gilgermesh type stuff it’s a poem and very old the bible ripped it off ie the arc and Noah 

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3 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

What about the underground infrastructure? Subsea and underground pipes and cables?

Realistically they could survive for 10s of thousands of years, pretty much in tact. Imagine being an archaeologist in 100,000 years finding a cable from England to America and just thinking 'huh'? Then finding them everywhere. I wonder what they would think we used them for.

I could throw a curve ball and say why does it even have to be us there’s several species of homid that used stone tools we just happen to be the last ones standing 

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2 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

What about the underground infrastructure? Subsea and underground pipes and cables?

Realistically they could survive for 10s of thousands of years, pretty much in tact. Imagine being an archaeologist in 100,000 years finding a cable from England to America and just thinking 'huh'? Then finding them everywhere. I wonder what they would think we used them for.

I don't think that civilisation would have attained our poistion.  If the machine tool marks on the statues ae anything to go by then maybe 17th century level tech.

1 minute ago, stokiescum said:

Your looking at the book of gilgermesh type stuff it’s a poem and very old the bible ripped it off ie the arc and Noah 

I'm not actually, I'm looking at videos by people who have looked at the Book of Gligamesh.

Though I am more inclined to think that there is a common folk memory of a catastrophic flood which has been recorded in slighly different ways rather than their all being cribbed form Gilgamesh.

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Just now, Frank Hovis said:

I don't think that civilisation would have attained our poistion.  If the machine tool marks on the statues ae anything to go by then maybe 17th century level tech.

I'm not actually, I'm looking at videos by people who have looked at the Book of Gligamesh.

Though I am more inclined to think that there is a common folk memory of a catastrophic flood which has been recorded in slighly different ways rather than their all being cribbed form Gilgamesh.

Yes very possable let’s face it we were connected to Denmark etc then the waters rose oral tradition would have passed these memories down for many generations 

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6 minutes ago, ccc said:

The UK wasn't under ice during this period. That was about 20,000 years ago. 

There were glaciers etc and small ice sheets in jockland etc but not the coverage that existed at the last glacial maximum. 

The younger dryas is also known the the loch Lomond stadial. 

Finally me geography degree has a purpose. :Old:

I wasn't actually claiming civilisation existed in the UK though tbh I had thought glaciation was here up to 12,000 BC.  There doesn't seem to be evidence for anything prior to the first massive tree posts being set up at Stonehenge, under the current car park.

I also don't think that it was a pan-global civilisation rather that it was more than one at different stages of advancement with the the highest being that existing in Egypt.

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10 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I am referencing Egypt because Egypt has thrown up the most physical evidence; which may only because it has been far more open to archaeologists.

 

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Something happen 13,000 years or thereabouts ago. Probably a meteor or a volcanic eruption that changed the climate. It could have been the Greenland hit. That discovery under the ice has the potential to screw with a lot of considered fact. I watched a documentary last week that theorised that something happened in the South Western United States. Maybe an alien spaceship blew up.

The idea of more advanced races being wiped out is fanciful but not impossible. It all depends how advanced you think they were. The nutters get it wrong IMPO when they talk about some Atlantis more akin with Stargate tech than with the Ancient World of Classic times.

I certainly think it is possible that humans were advancing at X rate of progression and then some environmental disaster set them back hundreds or perhaps a few thousand years. If Yellowstone erupted today the survivors left on the planet would be sent back hundreds of years in various capabilities that we all now take for granted.

To get to Gobekli Tepe took how long? Hundreds of thousands of years. But to get from there to the pyramids took a relatively short time by comparison. Look at Homo Erectus - a million years wandering the planet and supposedly all they came up with were stone hand tool / weapon / axes and scrapers but those million years were needed to build Gobekli, the Pyramid and the Apollo Saturn 5. I digress.

All fascinating. 

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5 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

don't think that civilisation would have attained our poistion.  If the machine tool marks on the statues ae anything to go by then maybe 17th century level tech

I'm thinking more of 100,000 years from now, when we're all gone but seemingly bizarre fragments of our civilisation remain.

Why did everyone stick a bowl to the side of their house?

What are all these flat pieces of plastic we keep finding? 

Why are there so many giant artefacts shaped like birds? These guys must have been bird worshippers, obsessed with being able to fly.

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1 minute ago, The Masked Tulip said:

Something happen 13,000 years or thereabouts ago. Probably a meteor or a volcanic eruption that changed the climate. It could have been the Greenland hit. That discovery under the ice has the potential to screw with a lot of considered fact. I watched a documentary last week that theorised that something happened in the South Western United States. Maybe an alien spaceship blew up.

The idea of more advanced races being wiped out is fanciful but not impossible. It all depends how advanced you think they were. The nutters get it wrong IMPO when they talk about some Atlantis more akin with Stargate tech than with the Ancient World of Classic times.

I certainly think it is possible that humans were advancing at X rate of progression and then some environmental disaster set them back hundreds or perhaps a few thousand years. If Yellowstone erupted today the survivors left on the planet would be sent back hundreds of years in various capabilities that we all now take for granted.

To get to Gobekli Tepe took how long? Hundreds of thousands of years. But to get from there to the pyramids took a relatively short time by comparison. Look at Homo Erectus - a million years wandering the planet and supposedly all they came up with were stone hand tool / weapon / axes and scrapers but those million years were needed to build Gobekli, the Pyramid and the Apollo Saturn 5. I digress.

All fascinating. 

Yep.  As it remains not proven there is no proper academic discipline being applied so the guy who thinks they all wore white robes and levitated huge stone blocks with their minds can make a video as much as somebody who is evidencing the use of machine tools on statues by analysing cut marks.

From the evidence I have seen for Egypt I would say that their, as in the particular civilisation in Egypt rather than something global, stone working and building skills were up to the level of the Victorians with maybe watermills powering teh cutting.  This doesn't of course mean that they had literature, transport or anything else that the Victorians had.

I don't think that civilisation was anywhere near as advanced as we are now and that there is no deep, secret and esoteric knowledge to discover.  Though it remains fascinating in of itself.

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Posted (edited)

Graham Hancock and Joe Rogan make the point that digitally stored knowledge could easily be wiped out given another cataclysmic event like the Greenland meteor,  leaving future generations with little knowledge of what went before.

I think the same can be said of loss of knowledge of humanity before the flood.

 

Edited by JackieO

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1 minute ago, JackieO said:

Graham Hancock and Joe Rogan make the point that digitally stored knowledge could easily be wiped out given another cataclysmic event like the Greenland meteor living future generations with no knowledge of what went before.

I think the same can be said of loss of knowledge of humanity before the flood.

Tbh, and it's a serious point if not my point, we are already losing knowledge as older formats cannot be read.  I have .pdfs which are ten years' old and can no longer be read. 

Information stored on 5.25" floppy discs has generally been lost as people haven't bothered to transfer the data and their readers are no longer widely available.

I kept my degree essays on 5.25" floppy discs thinking that was a far better way of storing them than printing off paper copies.  Do I want to cart around several big looseleaf files or three slim floppy discs?  This is the future thought I.

That future is now however the past and inevitably I have now discarded those discs.  Though my later dissertation is a bound hardbook book which will always be readable.

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8 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

Tbh, and it's a serious point if not my point, we are already losing knowledge as older formats cannot be read.  I have .pdfs which are ten years' old and can no longer be read. 

Information stored on 5.25" floppy discs has generally been lost as people haven't bothered to transfer the data and their readers are no longer widely available.

I kept my degree essays on 5.25" floppy discs thinking that was a far better way of storing them than printing off paper copies.  Do I want to cart around several big looseleaf files or three slim floppy discs?  This is the future thought I.

That future is now however the past and inevitably I have now discarded those discs.  Though my later dissertation is a bound hardbook book which will always be readable.

Instead of chucking old books, maps and manuals out, I'm going to store them in the loft. Just in case. ;)

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

Physical - lots of oddly advanced artefcats exist in the earliest contexts of Egyptian archaeology in particular.  Flawless polished statues of the hardest rock with evidence of machine tools.  Single piece granite columns with perfectly symmetrical carving; far in advance of anything even the Romans and Greeks were making.  On many of these there are heiroglyphs but these are scratchy and inferior and look like graffitti upon the statues.  There is also the water erosion in the enclosure of teh Sphinx, that the best built pyramids are the earliest, and several unexplained underground sites.

I'd be interested in seeing some photos of these statues with machine tooling?

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1 minute ago, Frank Hovis said:

Yep.  As it remains not proven there is no proper academic discipline being applied so the guy who thinks they all wore white robes and levitated huge stone blocks with their minds can make a video as much as somebody who is evidencing the use of machine tools on statues by analysing cut marks.

From the evidence I have seen for Egypt I would say that their, as in the particular civilisation in Egypt rather than something global, stone working and building skills were up to the level of the Victorians with maybe watermills powering teh cutting.  This doesn't of course mean that they had literature, transport or anything else that the Victorians had.

I don't think that civilisation was anywhere near as advanced as we are now and that there is no deep, secret and esoteric knowledge to discover.  Though it remains fascinating in of itself.

 

Yes, I think the same.

Also - what I was trying to say above - is that a knock-back for Humans at that point in development has the potential to knock them back further in knowledge, development and skills than perhaps the same disaster would today.

Of course there are major disasters - nuclear holocaust, a huge meteor hit or Yellowstone erupting - that has the potential to kill billions of us today and send us back to the Iron Age or earlier. But smaller disasters - say an electric magnetic plus - would destroy our technological age for a given time period and result in countless deaths through starvation and disease... but enough people would survive... there would be, more importantly, enough people left with knowledge or the means to access knowledge and hence, whilst it might take decades or a century or two, eventually Humanity would be back up and running IMPO.

With Gobekli Tepi I suspect that the knowledge / skilled use of tools base was tiny. That there was no means of transferring that knowledge - no real writing, no books or hard disks of information - other than orally and through example learning of apprenticeship. So along comes a sudden disaster... your people with the all important knowledge and skills die... and there goes your civilisation. What has taken you thousands of years to get to is now gone. You have gone back those thousands of years. How do you recover from that? I don't think you do. Hence why writing and being able to store information on stone, tablets, etc, is ocnisdered such an important part of our development.

Maybe some of the people left with skills go elsewhere. Perhaps to Egypt? Perhaps whatever caused Gobekli to halt evolving is what allowed Egypt to rise up. If the UK was 90% destroyed today the skilled and those with knowledge probably would not hang around. They would flee elsewhere. Perhaps it was disease that wiped out Gobekli resulting in the survivors fleeing South towards Egypt and East towards the Euphrates?

I can clearly recall in school being taught about the Stone, Bronze and Iron Ages. The way it was taught to me was that everywhere went from Stone to Bronze at the same time. Stupid. I believed that for a long time until, of course, my own reasoning and pursuit of the subject educated me that Human Beings developed at different rates across the planet. It is not politically correct to say that large part of the World were, until rjust recently, still living as basically Neolithic hunter-gatherers - I am looking at you Americas and Sub-Saharan Africa. Nobody wants to say it but much of Africa still is. There is no evidence from North America that the majority of Native Indians were developing towards permanent settlements and farming. (Yes, there were some tribes but very, very few and North America is a truly vast landmass akin to the distances between Stonehenge and Babylon.). Sorry, I digress again.

 

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14 minutes ago, honkydonkey said:

100,000 years from now bone records will show we really hated chickens

5000 years from now they will wonder about the signs of mass castrations on bodies 

And what will they make of the bags of silicone ? 

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12 minutes ago, Great Guy said:

I'd be interested in seeing some photos of these statues with machine tooling?

I've seen a couple of videos clearly evidencing it (overcuts and otherwise inexplicable sharp edges grooves in unfinished pieces) so I guess there are photos as well.

There are so many videos that I couldn't find a decent summary for my OP amongst the many so I suggest a search on YouTube.

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