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sarahbell

Planning. Build on greenbelt

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4 hours ago, Tdog said:

Pity they dont inform the plebs that there isnt a housing shortage just a whole lot of cheap printed money bidding up the price of the current stock.

Definitely a lot of housing that should be demolished and replaced however.

A lot perhaps of this new build shite filling the Manchester sky.

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23 hours ago, Errol said:

This is like immigration.

How much green belt do we build on? When do we stop? Is there a defined number of houses or do we just keep on building until there is no space left?

Concrete over the whole fucking thing as far as I'm concerned (in conjunction with halting all immigration).

11 hours ago, Tdog said:

Pity they dont inform the plebs that there isnt a housing shortage just a whole lot of cheap printed money bidding up the price of the current stock.

There is both.

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10 hours ago, Tdog said:

The reason people are priced out is due to QE and ZIRP ... without these in 2009 houses would have been sold for buttons .... then Funding For Lending along with Help to Buy sent prices crackers from late 2013 onwards.

These are the reasons people cant afford to buy ... without these there would never be a so called housing shortage which TPTB claim is the reason prices are absurd.

Theres a lot of people around here having trouble with the logical concept of 'and' i.e. that for A to be true B AND C is required.

Edited by goldbug9999

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11 minutes ago, Tdog said:

Its most certainly not a housing shortage as i see hundreds of houses a week coming onto the market in a relatively small search area.

You are confusing liquidity with supply. All markets have buying selling activity irrespective of whether supply is bountiful or severely limited. Its this same confusion which leads to dumb ideas like help to buy - "theres plenty of houses for sale, but people just don't have enough money to buy them".

I'm not saying you are wrong about the factors you list, I'm just pointing out that a shortage is also a necessary condition. Most cars and phones are bought with credit (yes a monthly handset + sim contract is technically credit) yet credit supply does not determine the prices like it does for houses, the reason being that supply is not artificially constrained.

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35 minutes ago, Tdog said:

In the run up to the peak of Labours bubble they were building circa 200,000 units per year .... and prices were utterly insane ... not once was there any word of there being a housing shortage.

 

I think this is selective memory, down in my neck of the woods at least we've been told there is a "chronic housing shortage" for years, I remember Brown saying it and promising to build everywhere.

 

14 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

 Most cars and phones are bought with credit (yes a monthly handset + sim contract is technically credit) yet credit supply does not determine the prices like it does for houses, the reason being that supply is not artificially constrained. 

This isn't true. Apple would never release a £1,200 iPhone if credit wasn't freely available, as only <10% of the population could afford to spend that. Quite simply they would not manufacture such a handset if they weren't so reliant on the majority of their customers paying monthly.

Higher end cars are artificially constrained, they only release a certain amount to market even though they could manufacture 10x as many, to keep prices high. A good example is most 'special' Porsche models.

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6 minutes ago, Tdog said:

Im not confusing anything, the reason prices are insane at this moment in time is due to QE, ZIRP, FFL, TFS, Help to Buy and tax breaks for BTL.

Remove 1, 2 or 3 of these props (depending on the prop) from the equation and prices crash with the same amount of people and the same amount of property.

 

I think you will find this useful https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/and

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12 minutes ago, spunko said:

This isn't true. Apple would never release a £1,200 iPhone if credit wasn't freely available, as only <10% of the population could afford to spend that. Quite simply they would not manufacture such a handset if they weren't so reliant on the majority of their customers paying monthly.

I'm stating that credit does not create price increases through additional competition for non supply constrained goods. That is entirely compatible with the idea that credit availability creates additional market segments that might not otherwise exists (e.g. super premium products).

Quote

Higher end cars are artificially constrained, they only release a certain amount to market even though they could manufacture 10x as many, to keep prices high.

Indeed and that essentially proves my point. Thanks.

 

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3 minutes ago, Tdog said:

But yes i will agree that if the plebs could build on any plot they could get their hands on, then the price of development land would crash and house prices would also.

If you limit demand (i.e. credit & other sources of additional buyer cash) then you end up with a market rigged at both ends: artificial supply caps and artificial demand caps, it can be made to work but there massive incentives to game the system remain.

If you try to remove limits on supply then you move towards to a more naturally self regulating market. This also has the beneficial side effect of ... there generally being more housing for everyone.

The same applies to trying to solve high rents by using rent controls, this can be made to work (as it has in germany for example) but leaves the market in unnatural and fragile state and means that you need a massive regulatory framework to stop it being gamed such as minimum room sized etc etc. Much better and more sustainable to just massively increase the available rental housing stock (in addition to rather than instead of more owner/occupier properties).

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Just now, Tdog said:

It seems your point is reliant on forgetting about the other 25 million dwellings in the UK that people may want to buy, as what you are implying is everyone wants to buy one of the new builds that are dripped into the market each year.

Too add more people than ever own 2 or more house, mainly to rent out ... a strange kind of shortage.

There is no real shortage of housing nationally, the problem is most of it is in the wrong hands, the true villains are BTL, speculators and second homes.

All things that predominantly didn't exist before 1987.

 

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1 minute ago, Tdog said:

It seems your point is reliant on forgetting about the other 25 million dwellings in the UK that people may want to buy, as what you are implying is everyone wants to buy one of the new builds that are dripped into the market each year.

Honestly I have no clue what point you are making here.

 

Quote

Too add more people than ever own 2 or more house, mainly to rent out ... a strange kind of shortage.

Its only the shortage that makes buy to let profitable in the first place as its the shortage that creates the captive market for rent. I can restate what you wrote as "more people than ever live in a house owned by someone else who already owns a house".

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3 minutes ago, Chewing Grass said:

There is no real shortage of housing nationally, the problem is most of it is in the wrong hands, the true villains are BTL, speculators and second homes.

All things that predominantly didn't exist before 1987.

A vast influx of EE's is also something we didn't have before 1987. You are all acting as I'm denying the financial factors, which I am not.

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3 minutes ago, Tdog said:

But lets just say the Tory party/MSM are correct and the reason house prices are insane is due to a housing shortage, to resolve this millions of us will have to take on absurd and unaffordable amounts of debt to buy newly built property so big builders can knock up 500,000 or more units per year, so we eventually get to a point where there is no housing shortage.

But the market is dynamic, if 1/2 million houses a year were built then I'm pretty sure prices would fall heavily.

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11 minutes ago, Tdog said:

I'd be 100% sure prices would become affordable to folk buying with wages if interest rates were a mere 4%, or if QE was reversed ... and prices will go down in price if H2B gets cancelled ... or if BTL mortgages are no longer available .. or if BTLers under the higher tax threshold are no longer are allowed to claim the equivalent of MIRAS.

100%? I wouldn't be so confident. Rates were higher than that in the run-up to the 2007 financial crash and the house price juggernaut showed no signs of slowing down. There are plenty of ways to keep it going even in those circumstances. 125% mortgages, inter-generational lending, etc.

The only thing I'm 100% sure would make prices affordable is if the government got out of the market altogether, ending its manifold schemes, manipulation and other influence, including/especially its propping up of bank lending with printed and taxpayers' money. But it won't.

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On 04/07/2019 at 23:38, Errol said:

This is like immigration.

How much green belt do we build on? When do we stop? Is there a defined number of houses or do we just keep on building until there is no space left?

Fuck the "green belt

" (there's more than one), and the same goes for the planning permission act. It's all a load of bullshit, made up to protect the assets of the rich.

The greenbelt was invented after WWII to prevent people leaving bombed out cities and building, at a cheaper cost, around those cities thereby leaving the centres hollowed out and in ruins. Its 2019, and we are far far removed from WW2. 

But what about the trees and the squirrels? Most of the greenbelt is farmland that has been dowsed in pesticide year after year.

But even so we can't concrete over the whole UK. Have you ever flown into the UK in a clear day? Only 10% of this nation is built upon, and that includes roads and industrial buildings.

But the immigrants! Yes, Immigration causes upward pressure on prices/rents and downward pressure on wages, HOWEVER, what is worse is IMMIGRATION+EASY LENDING+RESTRICTED SUPPLY. The bubble is not an accident, its government policy.

 

The greenbelt is boomer bullshit to fuck me and my generation out of an affordable house

Edited by No One

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2 hours ago, Tdog said:

But you're putting far more emphasis on the housing shortage the MSM and Tory party inform us of on a daily basis.

But lets just say the Tory party/MSM are correct and the reason house prices are insane is due to a housing shortage, to resolve this millions of us will have to take on absurd and unaffordable amounts of debt to buy newly built property so big builders can knock up 500,000 or more units per year, so we eventually get to a point where there is no housing shortage.

And then when we get to the point where there is no shortage, do house price go back to the 1000 year median?

I personally need a mere 15-20% drop in prices to buy with no debt, this is not going to happen with Barratts, Persimmons and the gang knocking up several hundred thousand more shite houses a year.

It's important to note that going from a house shortage to a house boom will not necesarilly bring down house prices. 

 

We saw this in Spain and in Ireland.

 

What we need it a restriction of money after a housing boom.

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1 hour ago, Tdog said:

Its fucken mental that im willing to pay 4 times the average salary for such a small plot and there is nothing. But then i'll drive past numerous fields that were once greenbelt or farmland and will see the building oligopoly knocking up shite terraces on top of each other with no front garden and limited parking  .... plots theyve bought for an average of circa £40k (their figures) but theyre selling these shite houses for £300,000 upwards.

This is another big big problem.

Because land is so expensive, only the big builders can afford it. In the past most houses were built by small and medium size building companies, and they built better, but the planning permission act and high land prices has effectively created a construction cartel.

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5 minutes ago, Tdog said:

Land is cheap, its getting that cheap land converted to land with planning permission that is the complex part ... though not so complex when you can afford legal teams to get through  the loopholes and the council can see they're willing to put a nice fee for the S106 ageemenr into their pension fund for them.

It was last year when the builder oligopoly showed the cost per plot for them averages out at roughly £35,000-40,000 for them.

If the plebs or small builders could pay this kind of figure self build would sky rocket.

 

Imagine if the government dis empowered councils. Repealling the planning permission act and this time next year I would have a 4 bedroom detached home with garage and posh gravel entrance for 90k.

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9 hours ago, Tdog said:

In the run up to the peak of Labours bubble they were building circa 200,000 units per year .... and prices were utterly insane ... not once was there any word of there being a housing shortage.

But then lo and behold in 2009 when they dropped interest rates and printed like no tomorrow stopping house prices falling, and then when the Tory party done all they could to inflate prices there was all of a sudden a housing shortage. I believe even the lady who done the report for the govt claiming there was a shortage even admits this is not the case. (I forget her name)

I can categorically state the reason i am priced out is due to QE, ZIRP and Help to Buy along with Funding for Lending which sent price higher from 2013. Its most certainly not a housing shortage as i see hundreds of houses a week coming onto the market in a relatively small search area. 

Though obviously if people were allowed to build on any plot of land they could get there hands on without the need for planning permission this would also bring prices down.

If they want to allow building on green belt that's fine by me. One condition though. None of this barrat shit hole rabbit hutch. Take a nice bit of countryside and split it into plots varying from 1/4 to 1 acre. Only condition is that your plot can't be subdivided further, but you can build a family home. Max sale price of the land is 50k. End of shortage. Prop prices reset. Power to the people. End of this new build shit. Win win win. 

Edited by Green Devil

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On 05/07/2019 at 22:53, goldbug9999 said:

Concrete over the whole fucking thing as far as I'm concerned (in conjunction with halting all immigration).

There is both.

We import 50% of our food and have killed 75% of our pollinating insects.. 

we need to close the boarders permanently.. 

farming creates pesticides that kill wildlife

cattle grazing creates slurry that pollute’s rivers and streams starving them of oxygen and killing life.. 

cars on the road splatter bugs and run over animals, and how does sitting in a 2 hour traffic jam every morning make my life more culturally enriched.. FFS.. when I was 18 the journey only took 30mins.. But apparently I have to sing the praises of mass immigration and how fantastic it is whilst loosing hours of my life stuck in my fucking car..

The answer to protecting ourselves,  there is only one! 

Close the fucking boarders! Fuck the fake economy.. most jobs created through mass immigration are pointless worthless jobs.. Uber eats, deliveroo, pedi cabs, hand car washes, endless fucking coffee shops.. 

These jobs will never create a sustainable economy.. They will never earn enough to claim a pension that can support themselves.. 

its pointless.. just rich corporations driving down wages and arse raping everyone..

 

5A0412A0-BCD9-41B8-9DB7-7E288703030F.jpeg

Edited by macca

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Some planning loopholes I have been investigating. The first is how to add accommodation for a dependent relative whilst minimising tax.

1. Get house with plenty of garden
2. Construct outbuilding using permitted development class E (requires Lawful development certificate - easy enough, I've done one)
    *** You wont get class E if you have a bedroom, bathroom or kitchen ***
3. Wait 6+ months
4. Start using it as sleeping accommodation (bedroom but not kitchen/bathroom). No paperwork required, all legal.
5. Then add a kitchen/bathroom. At this point, then the council want you to tell the VOA who will assign a council tax band
6. Since you have no liability for the time you don't tell them, keep quiet. The building wont look any different on the outside.

 

My latest loophole hunt regards the taxation for a new dwelling. One of the main problems is that if you get planning permission for a new dwelling in your garden, build a house to give away to the kids, you have to pay capital gains tax on it.  In my case,  I can build something for £200K that would be worth £700K but have to pay £100K tax which I now think is avoidable.

Some neighbours are now building in the garden but I don't think they have understood the (surprising to me) tax implications. We get so used to gains on our house being free of of capital gains, we don't understand that is actually a taxable event and only the private residence relief (PRR) exemption saves you paying anything.

Option 1

- build the new house then move in to make it your nominated main residence
- wait up to 18 months
- gift the new house to the kids, move back into the original house
 - full council tax to be paid for both properties (ouch) but no CGT

Option 2

I've discovered that I can start with a part conversion of an outbuilding to make it a small annex rather than a completely separate dwelling. Initially, a dependent in-law will live in it (no council tax) and I should get it classed a band A. Then later, complete the conversion whilst keeping it an annex so the kids can live in it.  The annex is now a big house but legally an annex.

The key is that an annex means the whole plot still qualifies as the main residence for PRR so capital gains tax is zero.  Even when there are no council tax discounts, a band A rating will be far better than a G rating. Should save around £2K per year.  The A rating can only be increased on a subsequent sale, not whilst I own it or even when it is inherited as far as I can tell.

Eventually, I can live in it at age 65, give the original house to the kids and I will be considered as a dependent relative so no council tax for the annex. There is no need to actually be dependent, just 65. There doesn't seem to be a limit on the size of the annex.  If I want to move in to the annex before 65, I can  still get a discount as an annex on a band A so council tax of only  ~£500 per year.

My last loophole to find will be a way to protect the kids new housing assets against future divorce/bankruptcy or other liabilities.   

 

 

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