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sancho panza

Green Energy Sceptics Thread

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Posted (edited)

I'm agnostic on Green issues generally.Open to the idea of global warming but reserve the right to question what the govt intends to do when it resembles anything that tends towards totalitarianism or smacks of Wall St making big bucks whilst claiming they're doing it for the betterment of mankind/the planet/charriddee.

Covid has been a lesson for me in watching reasonable people like Professors Bhakdi/Ioannidis/Giesecke/Gupta etc etc get totally dismissed by Govts in their lust to implement crack downs based on the advice from the modern day Mr Magoo and his magical random number generating code.There do seem a lot of Mr Magoo types when it comes to Green energy.

Whilst researching a Giesecke Youtube piece,I found this Michael Moore documentary which I'm 20 minutes into and he exposes a lot of uncomfortable facts for the Renewable news story-covers wind/ethanol/solar and the fact that electric cars run off coal based power stations in the US/that there's a lot of big money being made in wind farms given that they need replacing quite often/as one Aussie news anchor said 'we subsidize solar panels which get made in China using coal fired power stations then import them back-how green is that?'....and more.

A real shock.Not what I was expecting.He identifies a lot of contradictions in terms of what renewables are made of,how they're funded and manufactured and does it very well.

First is the Trailer then the movie

 

Edited by sancho panza

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1 hour ago, Loki said:

I don't like or trust Moore. Strawman video. "We lied about green energy therefore you can't have a family. Stop breeding"

 

I think the main point is it`s a money making scam dressed up as saving the planet ,when in reality it`s achieving nothing of the sort regarding saving the planet /environment/climate

My argument from day one regarding bio mas has always been, show me a tree that can grow quicker than i can burn it then i will believe it`s sustainable 

And on the other hand i`m 100% behind heat/power from waste,,,incinerator power stations  

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51 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

I think the main point is it`s a money making scam dressed up as saving the planet ,when in reality it`s achieving nothing of the sort regarding saving the planet /environment/climate

My argument from day one regarding bio mas has always been, show me a tree that can grow quicker than i can burn it then i will believe it`s sustainable 

And on the other hand i`m 100% behind heat/power from waste,,,incinerator power stations  

A thought provoking perpsective

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Posted (edited)

Biomass is a complete joke, I am sure it was included in the rules so politicians can meet targets in a fraudulent way.

 

My other pet hate is tree planting - "I have offset my businesses' carbon footprint by planting xxx trees" 

How long have have they paid for the trees to be grown for?

Once the tree is fully grown is it buried so it can't release the carbon straight back into the atmosphere?

 

I think the answer to the first question is 5 minutes and the second question is no.

Edited by planit

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The global warming science is junk science, a nobel laureate in a real science (physics) tore them a new asshole:

 

Even if the earth is warming up, we're still coming out of the last ice age and for 90% of it's history earth has been hotter than it is right now. Who the fuck are we to decide what the right temperature for this planet is?

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9 hours ago, gibbon said:

The global warming science is junk science, a nobel laureate in a real science (physics) tore them a new asshole:

 

Even if the earth is warming up, we're still coming out of the last ice age and for 90% of it's history earth has been hotter than it is right now. Who the fuck are we to decide what the right temperature for this planet is?

Thanks for psoting,I'm looking forward to watching this.It's interesting but I've noticed of late how John Giesecke the Swedish epidemiologist who debunked lock downs a month or two back has been getting more and more screen time.Thsi Green energy thing strikes me as a bit the same.The Green lobby says 'all the scientists agree', and then it tunrs out theres osme really clever ones that don't.

LIke I said,looking forward tot his vid.

Feel free to psot some more.

9 hours ago, DoINeedOne said:

Interesting article i read a while back 

Wind Turbine Blades Can’t Be Recycled, So They’re Piling Up in Landfills

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills

4000x-1.thumb.jpg.fab516ab0ef17816a3f40850555f4a79.jpg

You literally couldn't make that up.ANd likely it doesn't get included in the carbon footprint calcs..............................they only get measured to manufacture.Then stiick them in the soil to decay.

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11 hours ago, sancho panza said:

Thanks for psoting,I'm looking forward to watching this.It's interesting but I've noticed of late how John Giesecke the Swedish epidemiologist who debunked lock downs a month or two back has been getting more and more screen time.Thsi Green energy thing strikes me as a bit the same.The Green lobby says 'all the scientists agree', and then it tunrs out theres osme really clever ones that don't.

LIke I said,looking forward tot his vid.

Feel free to psot some more.

You literally couldn't make that up.ANd likely it doesn't get included in the carbon footprint calcs..............................they only get measured to manufacture.Then stiick them in the soil to decay.

Haven't got a video, but I assume you heard of that uni, think it was a British one, leading the global warming bollocks,  the department had their emails hacked or something and they were caught out faking all their data because it originally didn't give them the results they wanted?

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18 minutes ago, gibbon said:

Haven't got a video, but I assume you heard of that uni, think it was a British one, leading the global warming bollocks,  the department had their emails hacked or something and they were caught out faking all their data because it originally didn't give them the results they wanted?

Not even that convinces the AGW crowd.

 

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The Michael Moore film relies on the emotive and avoids the mathematics. I would like to have seen an analysis of the 'ashes to ashes' carbon footprint of turbines, panels etc,  set against their generating capability so we can make an informed opinion. Some guy going on about one of the ingredients of a solar panel being coal , like that's a bad thing, has little meaning, I mean that might be a reasonable use for coal.

 

 

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6 hours ago, gibbon said:

Haven't got a video, but I assume you heard of that uni, think it was a British one, leading the global warming bollocks,  the department had their emails hacked or something and they were caught out faking all their data because it originally didn't give them the results they wanted?

University of East anglia I seem to recall, or if not, it was certainly in that part of the country. 

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On 15/05/2020 at 13:22, gibbon said:

The global warming science is junk science, a nobel laureate in a real science (physics) tore them a new asshole:

 

Even if the earth is warming up, we're still coming out of the last ice age and for 90% of it's history earth has been hotter than it is right now. Who the fuck are we to decide what the right temperature for this planet is?

Excelent piece.Really does beg the question about what we're being told and what the science really says,not what certain groups want it to say.

I'm intent on exploring this all a lot more and that lecture really intriuges me.

5 hours ago, Bricormortis said:

The Michael Moore film relies on the emotive and avoids the mathematics. I would like to have seen an analysis of the 'ashes to ashes' carbon footprint of turbines, panels etc,  set against their generating capability so we can make an informed opinion. Some guy going on about one of the ingredients of a solar panel being coal , like that's a bad thing, has little meaning, I mean that might be a reasonable use for coal.

 

 

I was jsut more shocked that Micahel Moore was taking on the Greenies who are now an established part of most poltical spectrums.Sure it's light on data,but there's something quite powerful in terms of commentray when they're going backstage at music festivals powered by solar and finding out they're hooking onto the grid or pointing out that a lot of electric cars are being pwoered by coal fired power stations.

It's got me interested in the Green enrgy revolution for sure.

I msut say thought I prefer the physisicist on Gibbons video.

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Posted (edited)

@sancho panza seen your post in the virus gov sceptics thread and here. You might find it interesting to look up what part of the solar cycle we are in, what that does to the amount of cosmic rays impacting Earth, and what effect they have on mutation of RNA.

Just a few dots joined, not a TFH theory...they also affect humans so could be weakened immune systems worldwide rather than a particularly bad mutation.

Edit: Found this I hadn't seen before

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317577487_Sunspot_Cycle_Minima_and_Pandemics_A_case_for_vigilance_at_the_present_time

 

Edited by Loki

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On 14/05/2020 at 10:58, sancho panza said:

A real shock.Not what I was expecting.He identifies a lot of contradictions in terms of what renewables are made of,how they're funded and manufactured and does it very well.

And the once darling Moore has been non personed as a result.

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Moore is just the producer, he doesn't present, appear, or comment in the actual film, so not the same as the others he's done like Bowling For Columbine.

The underlying message is interesting, showing the corruption behind the drive for 'green', assuming it's accurate. I wonder what Greta thinks after watching it. Seems many she may be backing are in it for the old reasons, money and greed, unless I've not being paying enough attention to her message and she's actually on about these shysters troughing billions while faking it.

If it is accurate then the apparent lack of exposure in the media points to yet more corruption by way of being made to turn a blind eye.

Oh well, seems the Earth is doomed as far as the unsustainable nature of human activity. We trashed the planet and deserve to be wiped out, be it by a virus or aliens. 2020, the year the Earth stood still. :ph34r:

Fuck it, I've done my bit by not reproducing (as far as I know) so bring it on.

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26 minutes ago, BoSon said:

the unsustainable nature of human activity

It would be sustainable if there wasn't money to be made with unsustainable methods

Intensive farming, built-in obsolescence, forced/planned development etc.  

Even healthcare to an extent although that's veering into something I'm not touching with a 2m social distacning enforcement wand. 

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36 minutes ago, Loki said:

It would be sustainable if there wasn't money to be made with unsustainable methods

Intensive farming, built-in obsolescence, forced/planned development etc.  

Even healthcare to an extent although that's veering into something I'm not touching with a 2m social distacning enforcement wand. 

Yes quite, though with capitalism driving the world then making money is the main driver, hence the exploitation of intent.

Not sure how sustainable 7 billion people and rising is without the intense methods destroying much of the ecosystems. There may well be ways of solving it with new technology and science but the lag in that being available to the scale needed means 'game over' will be reached before the right game to make enough of a difference has really begun. e.g. rare earth mining causing a bigger problem than it solves while technology is largely consumer gadget focused. i.e. using the finite resources to make the wrong kind of things.

 

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This sort of sums of where I think green enrgy is.No subsidies,no profits.

https://wolfstreet.com/2020/05/20/green-energy-zombie-abengoa-just-threatened-to-re-default-on-debt-blames-covid-for-losses-begs-for-fresh-bailout/

Green-Energy Zombie Abengoa Threatens to Default 3rd Time Since Enron-Style Collapse, Blames Covid, Begs for Fresh Bailout

by Nick Corbishley • May 20, 2020 • 32 Comments

In the forlorn hope the world’s biggest green-energy zombie will somehow survive the oncoming storm.

By Nick Corbishley, for WOLF STREET:

When it comes to amassing and defaulting on insurmountable debt loads and then having the debt restructured to live another day, few companies can hold a candle to Abengoa, the global green energy giant, headquartered in Spain, famed for cooking its books with Enron-esque aplomb before collapsing in 2015. Reverberations were felt the world over, including in the U.S. where its unit filed for bankruptcy with $10 billion in debt. The company then rose from the ashes of its monstrous debt pile, only to reenter default in 2019. Once again, the debt was restructured.

Now, Abengoa is warning of a third default, which it’s partly blaming on Covid-19, although its latest rash of problems seem to have predated the virus crisis. The firm is two-and-a-half months late in releasing its financial report for 2019, which was due in late February.

The ostensible reason for this delay was that the company was conducting a revaluation of its subsidiary Abenewco 2, which apparently unearthed €388 million of heretofore unaccounted-for losses, none of which could be blamed on Covid-19.

According to financial daily El Confidencial, the actual reason for the delay was that Abengoa’s auditor PwC was refusing to sign off on its 10-year business plan. Given Abengoa’s long history of financial chicanery, that’s not beyond the realms of possibility.

Even today, it’s impossible to find a copy of Abengoa’s full financial report for 2019 on its website. But it has released a three-page Updated Business Plan that has been translated into bizarrely bad English. In the document, the company reports increased sales but it has still clocked up losses of over €500 million. Granted, it’s an improvement on last year’s €1.5 billion of losses but apparently not enough to avert a new rescue plan, which includes:

  • A request for €250 million in fresh loans from its five main banks (Santander, Bankia, Caixa, BBVA and Bankinter), which Abengoa hopes will be 70% guaranteed by the Spanish government’s Covid-19 emergency loan fund.
  • A request for further credit lines worth €300 million from these same banks as well as the Spanish Export Credit Agency CESCE. In the first restructuring of Abengoa’s debt the Spanish government used this state-owned body to ever-so-quietly and ever-so-predictably underwrite €400 million of Abengoa’s debt, €100 million of which has already been written off. Now the company wants more of the same.
  • Further haircuts for providers worth up to €700 million.
  • Further debt-for-equity swaps for the company’s creditors. Abengoa’s various classes of shares trade at €0.01 or below. In other words, they do not even qualify as a penny stock.

Abengoa’s main creditors include the Spanish State and many of Spain’s biggest lenders. The biggest lender of them all, Santander, had the greatest exposure to Abengoa’s debt (€1.6 billion) and was most interested in sealing the 2016 deal, thanks to which Abengoa narrowly avoided becoming Spain’s biggest ever corporate failure, with over €25 billion of liabilities. Despite selling part of its stake in 2017 and 2018, Santander is still the largest shareholder.

Many of the other creditors must be wondering why they agreed to restructure Abengoa’s gargantuan debt pile in the first place. Perhaps at the time it appeared to make more sense to agree to a haircut, even a very large one, than to try to recover whatever they could in a liquidation.

Despite two debt restructurings, Abengoa still has €6 billion of debt on its books — more than two thirds of it short term — that it says it can no longer pay under the conditions established in its last refinancing deal, struck just over a year ago.

Abengoa has already warned investors that it expects sales and Ebitda to fall by 21% and 8% respectively in the coming years. It also admits, in its error-strewn English, that many of its most important operations are in regions that are likely to be hit hardest by the coronavirus crisis:

“Unfortunately, many of regions (sic) expected to be most affected by the economic retractions (sic), such as Latin America, Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa, are the core markets of Abengoa.”

The company already has big problems in one of its biggest markets, Mexico, where the government last week fast-tracked new rules that will impose tougher restrictions on new clean energy projects and grant the National Center for Energy Control the authority to reject new plant study requests. According to the Mexican business lobby group CCR, the new legislation puts more than €30 billion of investments at risk, much of which belongs to European and Canadian companies that are now considering suing Mexico’s government for violating their investor rights.

Defenders of the government’s bill say its goal is to ensure that local communities are properly consulted before approvals are granted for large-scale wind, solar or hydroelectric projects. It is also intended to reduce the corruption and other excesses that Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador (AMLO) says is rampant in Mexico’s renewable energy sector.

Considering how Abengoa treated its Mexican subsidiary and creditors during its first debt renegotiation in 2016, effectively transferring all of the subsidiary’s cash and loan proceeds to the parent company’s treasury, AMLO could be forgiven for wanting to crack down on bad practices in the sector. But critics of the bill also accuse AMLO of seeking to protect national utility CFE and state-owned oil company Pemex from competition in the sector as part of his mission to achieve energy sovereignty.

For Abengoa, the events in Mexico bear eerie parallels with the energy reforms enacted in Spain in 2013, which sharply reduced the public subsidies available to companies in the renewable energy sector. With the stroke of then-Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy’s pen, the gravy train was over. Two years later, the company was bankrupt. Now, it faces a similar threat in another key market.

Another risk it faces is being found guilty of falsifying documents, together with its former auditor Deloitte. If found guilty, Abengoa could face damages it will not be able to pay.

For the company’s biggest creditors, including Spain’s government, this is just one of many issues to be considered as they weigh up whether to let the company fall, which will mean finally eating the totality of their losses on the investment. It will also result in around 14,000 job losses worldwide. The alternative is to write off even more of Abengoa’s debt while lending it even more money, including taxpayer funds, to burn through, in the forlorn hope that the world’s biggest green energy zombie will somehow survive the oncoming storm without need of yet further assistance. By Nick Corbishley, for WOLF STREET.

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7 minutes ago, BearyBear said:

This comment from the author to someone who asked a question is really quite astute when you think about it.

Q. 'Art, in your view what fundamental and painful shift has been made in the course of human history?'

A. 'The domestication of the horse. It unleashed unimaginable disruption, death and chaos on human subsistence society.'

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