The Big Unfunded Public Sector pension thread

[spygirl]

Went to reply to one of my earlier posts about Teacher Pension scheme.

Thread bumped.

So moving it to its own thread, as its probably got legs.

My post -

Yeah - 

 

I really need to work out the midlands - Just whiz by it, in a train or car, between North n South.

I dont feel comfartable til I see Sheffield ...

I thin kthe CovUni is just spunking it away.

There is a separate issue - Teacher pension scheme which the old Polyis are members are, as well as teachers.

The cost of Teacher pension is ~40% salary.

TPS funding has been 10% employee + 10-15% employer

Thats not enough for a fund that is full of white collar well rested wimmin. MOst will live to 90+ - 23y+

Up til ~1990ish most teachers returning were blokes.

Once again the fannyification of lots of public sector means a very hefty pension liability.

TS is goings nuts and trying to claw back contributions.

a Lot of schools are looking at rolls falling 50% - no more migrants on benefits - plus wage bill going up massively.

[spygirl]

Anyhow, as all public sector jobs fill up with wimmin, the pension liability is about 50%.

Gidiot reduced my turbo charge the long planned  sra equality - 60 - 65, then put another 2 years on it.

The effects of this change is limited, cos of working age bennues n dla crap. That needs sorting out.

Go back to the late 70s and even my primary was 30% blokes. Wierd blokes ill grant you...

Today you'll rarely see a bloke in a primary - or secondary.

Brown/Labour cranked up teacher pay  - a lot. A friend is on 40k for being a tpyear leader plus some admin n subject specialist, which is puss easy.

That's good- as long as she does not leave the school.

Once you go over 30k you are unemployable as no school wants you, preferring to employ NQTs in primary.

I.e. as a result of Labour's uber paying, you are probably in a post and school for life.

Of course most DO leave school to have kids. Then find out they are fucked, so end up in supply til an opening becomes available n the school is happy to employ you.

The TPS contributions are getting painful for schools.

There's massive turmoil in private schools as, insanely, teachers in private schools were allowed to join the TPS.

You might want to read that last sentence again, a few times.

Any how, today's story of woe -

Humiliating’ pension process upsets partners of retired UK teachers who have died

Annual letter from Teachers’ Pensions, which administers scheme for DfE, asks about new relationships

https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2024/feb/10/humiliating-pension-process-upsets-partners-of-retired-uk-teachers-who-have-died

After being complete inumerate fuckwits during 80s n 90s n letting teachers retire off in thier 30s n 40s on full pensions ... the TPS is in massive shit.

DoE is chasing every penny in TPS it can.

More so as school rolls fall off.

 

 

[spygirl]

And there's more ...

The teachers’ pension scheme bombshell

Alasdair Smith, former vice chancellor at the University of Sussex, explains the government decisions that have left parts of the sector facing a huge bill

ALASDAIR SMITH 

ANALYSIS

at the University of Sussex, explains the government decisions that have leparts of the sector facing a hug

https://wonkhe.com/blogs/the-teachers-pension-scheme-bombshell/

[spygirl]

There's nothing new.

Private sector sussed out how expensive DB pensions were in mid 90s.

30y later the penny drops in public sector.

NHS n education are the big minster spenders.

What it feels like for universities

A typical large post-92 with annual income of around £350m and staff costs of £200m will already be paying around £15m annually into TPS. It now faces an increase of around £3m in its TPS contributions. In the UK as a whole, the increased bill for HEIs is around £100m from institutions, many of which are already struggling to balance their books.

The government departments whose budgets pay the pension cost of public sector employees can look at contribution changes with a degree of equanimity. Last week’s Autumn Statement confirmed that the government is:

committed to providing funding for the increased cost of employer contributions from April 2024 for centrally funded employers.

Departmental budgets will be adjusted by HMT, and the Department for Education will provide additional funding to cover the increase in schools, colleges and early years providers. In short, for public sector employers it’s a funny-money exercise in which book-keeping entries are shunted between HMT and spending departments.

But the post-92 universities (and independent schools) are “autonomous bodies” whom HMT will not compensate, and for them it is a real-money exercise and far from funny. The autonomy of the post-92s doesn’t stretch to having the freedom to quit TPS.

[marceau]

On 10/02/2024 at 13:23, spygirl said:

There's nothing new.

Private sector sussed out how expensive DB pensions were in mid 90s.

30y later the penny drops in public sector.

NHS n education are the big minster spenders.

What it feels like for universities

A typical large post-92 with annual income of around £350m and staff costs of £200m will already be paying around £15m annually into TPS. It now faces an increase of around £3m in its TPS contributions. In the UK as a whole, the increased bill for HEIs is around £100m from institutions, many of which are already struggling to balance their books.

The government departments whose budgets pay the pension cost of public sector employees can look at contribution changes with a degree of equanimity. Last week’s Autumn Statement confirmed that the government is:

committed to providing funding for the increased cost of employer contributions from April 2024 for centrally funded employers.

Departmental budgets will be adjusted by HMT, and the Department for Education will provide additional funding to cover the increase in schools, colleges and early years providers. In short, for public sector employers it’s a funny-money exercise in which book-keeping entries are shunted between HMT and spending departments.

But the post-92 universities (and independent schools) are “autonomous bodies” whom HMT will not compensate, and for them it is a real-money exercise and far from funny. The autonomy of the post-92s doesn’t stretch to having the freedom to quit TPS.

Chances of reform though?

More likely it'll be 'fixed' through tax and inflation (to everyone else's great cost).

[spygirl]

22 minutes ago, marceau said:

Chances of reform though?

More likely it'll be 'fixed' through tax and inflation (to everyone else's great cost).

Tweaks most likely.

Gidots already fiddled with indexation and set retirement date to SRA - if you want to retire early then you nee to work have a DC pension - and put lots in it.

Mots likely will be removal or restriction of spouse pension.

Not a state pension but a good example of spouse pension fukcwttery -

Vicar, 81, who married Romanian toyboy, 27, dies alone in Bucharest hospital as his husband says he refuses to 'look sad' and wants to enjoy his £150k inheritance and £2,000-a-month British pension

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8389425/Vicar-81-married-Romanian-toyboy-27-dies-Bucharest-hospital.html

 

Examples of single people esp gay, marrying a friend so they can get the pension are common.

 

 

 

[Castlevania]

They need to be windfall taxed. Anything above £20k gets taxed at an additional 40% On top of your marginal rate. Job done.

[marceau]

4 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

They need to be windfall taxed. Anything above £20k gets taxed at an additional 40% On top of your marginal rate. Job done.

Going to be hard getting that past the various VIs when inflation is running hot (as it will be for the foreseeable future imo).

[reformed nice guy]

3 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

They need to be windfall taxed. Anything above £20k gets taxed at an additional 40% On top of your marginal rate. Job done.

We already have the precedent of ordinary income taxation.

Do a windfall tax on public sector using the current tax bands as markers. You don't lose anything up to 12.5k, you lose 20% of everything up to 50k, etc

Teacher on 40k pension goes down to 34.5k for example

[spygirl]

52 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

They need to be windfall taxed. Anything above £20k gets taxed at an additional 40% On top of your marginal rate. Job done.

Well,

Although shes now quiet, Rahy Reevy was on about dipping into whats left of private sector pension to 'incest in the public sector'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/13/rachel-reeves-plans-pensions-labour-growth-plan

Rachel Reeves is proposing to shake up Britain’s pension system as part of a three-pronged plan aimed at boosting the economy’s sluggish growth rate if Labour wins the next election.

The shadow chancellor wants more of the money saved for retirement schemes to find its way into support for expanding UK businesses, and says her reforms could increase the size of the average pension pot by up to £37,000.

What could go wrong?

I guess the daft bints not seen how puny private sector are now.

Im ntosure why she doesnt, say, take a nominal 50% of public sector pension. You can hypothecated the money.

Of source youll need to cut the proposed pension payout by 50%

But that cut will be more than made up by the returns generated by UKGOV

 

 

 

[Joncrete Cungle]

7 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Well,

Although shes now quiet, Rahy Reevy was on about dipping into whats left of private sector pension to 'incest in the public sector'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/13/rachel-reeves-plans-pensions-labour-growth-plan

Rachel Reeves is proposing to shake up Britain’s pension system as part of a three-pronged plan aimed at boosting the economy’s sluggish growth rate if Labour wins the next election.

The shadow chancellor wants more of the money saved for retirement schemes to find its way into support for expanding UK businesses, and says her reforms could increase the size of the average pension pot by up to £37,000.

What could go wrong?

I guess the daft bints not seen how puny private sector are now.

Im ntosure why she doesnt, say, take a nominal 50% of public sector pension. You can hypothecated the money.

Of source youll need to cut the proposed pension payout by 50%

But that cut will be more than made up by the returns generated by UKGOV

 

 

 

The other 50% of public sector pension can be spunked by councils on buying commercial property and associated Public Sector idiocy.

 

[darkmarket]

15 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Well,

Although shes now quiet, Rahy Reevy was on about dipping into whats left of private sector pension to 'incest in the public sector'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/13/rachel-reeves-plans-pensions-labour-growth-plan

Rachel Reeves is proposing to shake up Britain’s pension system as part of a three-pronged plan aimed at boosting the economy’s sluggish growth rate if Labour wins the next election.

The shadow chancellor wants more of the money saved for retirement schemes to find its way into support for expanding UK businesses, and says her reforms could increase the size of the average pension pot by up to £37,000.

What could go wrong?

I guess the daft bints not seen how puny private sector are now.

Im ntosure why she doesnt, say, take a nominal 50% of public sector pension. You can hypothecated the money.

Of source youll need to cut the proposed pension payout by 50%

But that cut will be more than made up by the returns generated by UKGOV

 

 

 

This is effectively a public sector version of what we discussed about the so-called 'Dutch mortgage' - the monetisation of pension assets/liabilities in order to prop up prices temporarily.

Two major warnings not to keep anything anywhere these thieves have access.

Edited February 11 by darkmarket

[snaga]

2 hours ago, spygirl said:

Well,

Although shes now quiet, Rahy Reevy was on about dipping into whats left of private sector pension to 'incest in the public sector'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/13/rachel-reeves-plans-pensions-labour-growth-plan

Rachel Reeves is proposing to shake up Britain’s pension system as part of a three-pronged plan aimed at boosting the economy’s sluggish growth rate if Labour wins the next election.

The shadow chancellor wants more of the money saved for retirement schemes to find its way into support for expanding UK businesses, and says her reforms could increase the size of the average pension pot by up to £37,000.

What could go wrong?

I guess the daft bints not seen how puny private sector are now.

Im ntosure why she doesnt, say, take a nominal 50% of public sector pension. You can hypothecated the money.

Of source youll need to cut the proposed pension payout by 50%

But that cut will be more than made up by the returns generated by UKGOV

 

 

 

Hunt has already done/doing something similar, making "default" funds invest 5% in very risky venture capitalist long shots.

May as well just add a 5% annual tax on private pensions.

Edited February 11 by snaga

[Mandalorian]

On 11/02/2024 at 16:18, spygirl said:

Rahy Reevy was on about dipping into whats left of private sector pension to 'incest in the public sector'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/13/rachel-reeves-plans-pensions-labour-growth-plan

 

 

 

 

Your broken keyboard has given us a pearler there

[satch]

On 11/02/2024 at 15:16, spygirl said:

Tweaks most likely.

Gidots already fiddled with indexation and set retirement date to SRA - if you want to retire early then you nee to work have a DC pension - and put lots in it.

Mots likely will be removal or restriction of spouse pension.

Not a state pension but a good example of spouse pension fukcwttery -

Vicar, 81, who married Romanian toyboy, 27, dies alone in Bucharest hospital as his husband says he refuses to 'look sad' and wants to enjoy his £150k inheritance and £2,000-a-month British pension

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8389425/Vicar-81-married-Romanian-toyboy-27-dies-Bucharest-hospital.html

 

Examples of single people esp gay, marrying a friend so they can get the pension are common.

 

 

 

Marrying Pensions (sic) and Rights to Pensions

In the USA the last person to receive an American Civil War pension died in 2020. Irene Triplett was 90 when she died and was still receiving the Civil War pension of $75 per month. Historians amongst you will recall the US Civil War was in the mid to late 1800s and yes due to the ‘rules’ Irene the veteran’s daughter, who was mentally impaired received the war pension her entire life. The pension was still being paid 150 years after the war ended and Irene started to receive the pension payments some 60 or so years after the war ended.

I suspect that pension rights being passed on to the new spouse will become a bigger issue in the future assuming that these rights continue. More people do not have a pension and a public sector pension enjoyed by many old boomers are worth millions.

Here is a real life case (from some years ago now). I knew the people involved so I know it is true. Man works in public sector with final salary scheme that reverts (I assume at some reduced percentage) to his wife on his death. Fair enough you say. His wife died before him and he then married his wife’s daughter, she was not his biological child, she was his de facto but not necessarily legal ‘step-daughter’. He died a couple of years later and new ‘step-daughter wife’ drew the public sector final salary pension for the next 60 plus years. All a bit sordid in an Anna-Nicole Smith way but 60 years of pension payment is not to be sniffed at. At least in the Middle Ages they ‘viewed’ the consummation of the King’s marriages to make sure it was a proper marriage. This practice may need to be re-introduced to stop young ladies just marrying the  boomer public sector pension and make sure they actually ‘marry’ the boomer and do the deed at least once to earn the valuable pension rights.

I wonder is there are any sections of society that  will see this as a way of generating a life-long income stream for young ladies and of course some young men. The people in the case I refer to above were of course white middle class British.

[spygirl]

Can you see the trend?

https://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/update-nhs-pension-scheme-employer-contribution-rates

The NHS Pension Scheme employer contribution rate increased on 1 April 2019 from 14.38% to 20.68%, this includes the 0.08% administration charge. The Department of Health and Social Care’s (DHSC) consultation response announcing the rise, published in March 2019, confirmed the available funding to meet the associated costs and that a transitional arrangement would operate in 2019/20 where employers in the Scheme would continue to pay 14.38%.

https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/nhs-pension-scheme-employer-contributions-april-2024

The employer contribution rate from 1 April 2024 is 23.7 per cent of pensionable pay. This is an increase from the previous rate of 20.6 per cent, in place for the period 1 April 2019 to 31 March 2024

[spygirl]

https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/news/employers/2024/02/updates-to-contribution-rates.aspx#:~:text=The employer contribution rate will,includes the 0.08% administration levy.

The employer contribution rate will increase from 23.68% to 28.68% from 1 April 2024. This includes the 0.08% administration levy

A long long time ago ....

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn00405/#:~:text=This note looks at the development of the scheme to,% to 14.1% for employers.

This note looks at the development of the scheme to 2010, including reforms introduced in 2007. These included an increase in the normal pension age for new entrants (from 60 to 65) and increases in contributions – from 6% to 6.4% for employees and from 13.5% to 14.1% for employers. There would be a cap on employer contributions of 14% from the 2008 valuation onwards. A separate note looks at the current

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

They should default, it's unsustainable:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/29/public-sector-pensions-bill-hits-record-26-trillion/

year.

The jump in liabilities was driven by a substantial downgrade to Britain’s growth prospects, which raises the predicted cost of funding gold-plated final salary or career average schemes that offer a guaranteed income on retirement.

Sir Steve Webb, a former pensions minister, described the £2.6 trillion figure as “eye-watering” and larger than the size of Britain’s economy.

He said: “If the economy is growing more sluggishly, then the future wealth of the nation is going to be smaller than you thought. So it’s going to be more painful to pay these promises.”

 

Edited March 29 by Mikhail Liebenstein

[Mandalorian]

8 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

They should default, it's unsustainable:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/29/public-sector-pensions-bill-hits-record-26-trillion/

year.

The jump in liabilities was driven by a substantial downgrade to Britain’s growth prospects, which raises the predicted cost of funding gold-plated final salary or career average schemes that offer a guaranteed income on retirement.

Sir Steve Webb, a former pensions minister, described the £2.6 trillion figure as “eye-watering” and larger than the size of Britain’s economy.

He said: “If the economy is growing more sluggishly, then the future wealth of the nation is going to be smaller than you thought. So it’s going to be more painful to pay these promises.”

 

The United Kingdom:  A sub-standard, third rate, healthcare system with an economy attached.

[spygirl]

My old 6th form head.

Tributes paid to the former principal of Scarborough Sixth Form College, Geoff Mountfield

Tributes have been paid to the former principal of Scarborough Sixth Form College, Geoff Mountfield, who has died at the age of 86

https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/news/people/tributes-paid-to-the-former-principal-of-scarborough-sixth-form-college-geoff-mountfield-4583701

Mr Mountfield was the Principal of Scarborough Sixth Form College from 1983 until his retirement in1994.

Formally a teacher of English and Vice Principal of Huddersfield New College he spent the whole of his working life in education after leaving Emmanuel College Cambridge in 1960.

Retired at 56.

34 year working.

30years retired.

Chuck in spouse pension and you re talking 50%+ of pay needs putting aside for the pension.

 

 

[spygirl]

9 hours ago, spygirl said:

My old 6th form head.

Tributes paid to the former principal of Scarborough Sixth Form College, Geoff Mountfield

Tributes have been paid to the former principal of Scarborough Sixth Form College, Geoff Mountfield, who has died at the age of 86

https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/news/people/tributes-paid-to-the-former-principal-of-scarborough-sixth-form-college-geoff-mountfield-4583701

Mr Mountfield was the Principal of Scarborough Sixth Form College from 1983 until his retirement in1994.

Formally a teacher of English and Vice Principal of Huddersfield New College he spent the whole of his working life in education after leaving Emmanuel College Cambridge in 1960.

Retired at 56.

34 year working.

30years retired.

Chuck in spouse pension and you re talking 50%+ of pay needs putting aside for the pension.

 

 

You an see why the TPS is now heavily discounted pension for people who draw  down before SRA.

If hed worked til 66 then the figures would be -

44 years working.

20 tears retired.

Which is more doable.

10% employee,10% employer contrib gives ~2.5 months pay saved every year.

44 * 2.5 = ~100 months ~10y pay saved.

Chuck in returns (yes i know TPS is pure PAYG)

 

[Red Debt Redemption]

22 hours ago, spygirl said:

You an see why the TPS is now heavily discounted pension for people who draw  down before SRA.

If hed worked til 66 then the figures would be -

44 years working.

20 tears retired.

Which is more doable.

10% employee,10% employer contrib gives ~2.5 months pay saved every year.

44 * 2.5 = ~100 months ~10y pay saved.

Chuck in returns (yes i know TPS is pure PAYG)

 

Most will be on default 4% employee 6% employer, 5y pay saved.

[spygirl]

6 hours ago, Red Debt Redemption said:

Most will be on default 4% employee 6% employer, 5y pay saved.

IIRC - and Im not 100% on the contrib rates from waaaay back ....

I think it used to be 10% employee and 10% employer.

This was fine when

1) The public sector was smaller.

2) Before ~1990, when life expectancy was a good 10y less than today.

3) It was mainly blokes.

The UK state expanded massively from the 50s.

A young male Dr/teacher/whatever starting a public sector job in, say, 1955 @ say 22, would be hitti SRA (65) in the late 90s.

Even then (90s) it wa obvious the assumption for life expectancy/ PAYG system was wrong - something like 10-15 retirement and maybe 5-10 for the spouse @ 50% discount.

I remember my mum n nan i nthe 70s/80s going - Eeh, he didnt live logn enough t o collect his pension.

Blokes carking over in their 50s was pretty common til the late 80s.

Fags. Lard. Even RTAs too kut loads.

Since the 70s, the number of wimmin the public sector has grown likes nuts.

Wimmin make up some nuts % of public sector workers - ~70%????

Young Jeany, who started work i, say 1975 @ 22 would be approaching SRA in late 00s. This was Gdiot panic, bunging an extra 2 on SRA in 2010.

Brown ,the cretin, not wanting to upset his voter base, did not reform public sector pension in the 90s/00s, ~10y after the private sector wised up and dropped DB pension like he clap.

 

 

 

 

 

[Formerly]

1 hour ago, spygirl said:

Brown ,the cretin, not wanting to upset his voter base, did not reform public sector pension in the 90s/00s, ~10y after the private sector wised up and dropped DB pension like he clap.

Instead he taxed dividends on private schemes, made companies include any pension deficits on their balance sheets and spunked the money stolen on god knows what. Only one of his many major destructions of our economy, the most famous of which was announcing he'd sell gold to his mates at knock down prices.

[spygirl]

Slight diversion, just to show the level of fuctwiitery.

Killinchy Primary: 'We are operating as a charity' says principal

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-68807197.amp

Have a read.,

Killinchy Primary School has more than 300 pupils and Mr Currie said a significant amount of his time is now dedicated to fundraising efforts for "basic resources and services".

The school has a staff of approximately 45 people

Doesn't say if thats FT heads. I make that a a out 6 kids to  staff.

My primary was 20 kids to staff.

He told BBC News NI that the school's parent-teacher association (PTA) had to raise significant funds to allow the school to replace three interactive whiteboards which had stopped working.

"At one point three went down in very quick succession, leaving those classrooms without interactive whiteboards or any tool for front-of-class teaching.

Interactive white boards are the monorail of the education sector.

Were they under warranty?

By stopped working, had tge cable fallen out? I ask as I was asked to buy a replacement whiteboard and when I did the grown up action of trying aabpnother PC n cable I found it worked.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-Flip-WM55B-Digitales-Flipchart/dp/B0B62LVRGH?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A107611QDJ2FV9

A further £10,000 was raised to allow the school to replace reading books, some which were almost 10 years old, some with missing pages, others held together with sticky tape

At £5 a book, that's 2,000 books. 12 per kid ffs.

And tge cool do get budget for materials.

How many staff sick days did you have last year?