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No Duff (troll)

Changing Tier 2 Visa Rules

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Posted (edited)

Not sure if this is economic or "other".  Immigration certainly impacts house prices though.

So the government is relaxing the tier 2 visa rules and numbers  This is the cap on skilled non EU immigration.

Typical dubious reporting by the pro big business BBC:

. Emphasis (smokescreen) on doctors and nurses who may come out of the cap but the changes go well beyond this.

. They only talk about 10,000 doctor vacancies and 35,000 nurses vacancies per year - is this the gross figure or after all our own home trained doctors (ie. net vacancies)?

. Apparently they're "highly skilled".  My HR friend says only sometimes, open to abuse.

. Had both the pro and con people on the Today programme but subsequent news soundbites only include the pro person,  the same one who said it's all good because it makes for a "vibrant" NHS!

Our country has one of the highest number of foreign doctors and nurses.  But then our home grown nurses need a degree and a load of debt!  Maybe it would be better for them if they trained overseas!

What's the point of Bexit if big business can still bring in what it wants - cheap or those trained at someone else's expense. 

More neo liberal cr*p and a further attack on skilled worker wages, having already hollowed out the unskilled.  Presumably the trick for big business is to make out like bandits before demand dries up because of lower incomes.

Note they are announcing this in advance of their forthcomming statement on immigration post Brexit.

Bet Brexit does naff all on immigration, the key driver for the vote in the first place.  But then I digress in thinking we control things rather than big business. 

Welcome to the "managed" democracy!

Edited by No Duff

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The NHS is always the virtue signallers best figleaf. 

 

Why do we need to import nurses and doctors? Because the government limits how many doctors are allowed to be trained here (UK is capitalist allegedly) and they have slashed the number of nursing training slots.

 

 

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7 hours ago, ThoughtCriminal said:

because the government limits how many doctors are allowed to be trained here 

To be fair it's the BMA who limits how many doctors can train 

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3 hours ago, ThoughtCriminal said:

The BMA and NHS obviously scratch each others' backs but although NHS can make funding available, or not, it is ultimately the BMA who have final say. You can't practice as a doctor unless BMA OK's it. This was something that came out during the junior doctor strike and undermined their campaign a little bit.

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I found a letter of invitation for a chap from our Indian site basically stating to the british consulate that he would be coming to the UK for training, attending meetings and brainstorming for 2 months. I read further down and this visa request related to a multiple entry visa for 2 years. Incredible.

I have dealings with almost all functions and have never seen any overseas subsidiary staff sticking to non-work stuff. They are all working.

Even worse, we have partnerships with 3rd party companies. We have probably 30+ Indian nationals working on site through the third party companies. Staff are engineers predominantly and the odd planner. Some have been here for over two years.

My understanding is that these 3rd party companies set up an office registered in UK and bring in their off-site resources to work in UK and remotely. I get the sense that it is all wink-wink, hush-hush. Probably claim that they can't get the resources from UK/EU, meanwhile the window for contractors to be converted into permanent staff members closed very quickly,

Just incase I get the inevitable SJW comment: I have nothing against the people of India or individuals taking an opportunity to develop themselves. What I do not like is the murkiness of the whole arrangement and that it is not clear if all UK tax law and immigration rules are being complied with. I also would prefer we bring in apprentices to train and develop.

Meanwhile we get the increasing percentage targets for offshoring rammed down our throats on a regular basis.

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On 14/06/2018 at 11:10, ThoughtCriminal said:

The NHS is always the virtue signallers best figleaf. 

 

Why do we need to import nurses and doctors? Because the government limits how many doctors are allowed to be trained here (UK is capitalist allegedly) and they have slashed the number of nursing training slots.

 

 

It’s really expensive to train them. £250k+ for a doctor’s degree. 

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18 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

It’s really expensive to train them. £250k+ for a doctor’s degree. 

Where does that figure come from?  It’s basically a combination of an apprenticeship (following the expert round - cost zilch) and sitting in university classrooms. 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, One percent said:

Where does that figure come from?  It’s basically a combination of an apprenticeship (following the expert round - cost zilch) and sitting in university classrooms. 

I don’t know the accountancy. But it’s really expensive as it’s hugely hands on. It’s a proper full time degree. You spend ages cutting up cadavers and what have you.

EDIT: it’s a bit less than that according to full fact. https://fullfact.org/health/cost-training-doctor/ 

Still a lot more expensive than running an English Literature course of 6 hours of lectures a week.

Ultimately it comes down to, A. why spend the money when you can hire from abroad and another country’s tax payer will have paid for the training and B. If you increased the number of training places you’d have to let in less intelligent people. It’s only medical professionals who care about this, but still.

Edited by Castlevania

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10 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

I don’t know the accountancy. But it’s really expensive as it’s hugely hands on. It’s a proper full time degree. You spend ages cutting up cadavers and what have you.

EDIT: it’s a bit less than that according to full fact. https://fullfact.org/health/cost-training-doctor/ 

Still a lot more expensive than running an English Literature course of 6 hours of lectures a week.

Ultimately it comes down to, A. why spend the money when you can hire from abroad and another country’s tax payer will have paid for the training and B. If you increased the number of training places you’d have to let in less intelligent people. It’s only medical professionals who care about this, but still.

At least with training your own, you have some idea of the quality of training.  Shipping people in, you have no control whatsoever and have to take it on trust that they are as well trained as you would like them to be. 

Im also not convinced by the argument that training more dilutes the quality. There are a lot of very able and bright people out there who go into different fields. 

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2 minutes ago, One percent said:

At least with training your own, you have some idea of the quality of training.  Shipping people in, you have no control whatsoever and have to take it on trust that they are as well trained as you would like them to be. 

Im also not convinced by the argument that training more dilutes the quality. There are a lot of very able and bright people out there who go into different fields. 

Yeah. It’s something I disagree with. My old man was a dentist (the first couple of years of the course is identical to if you’re training to be a doctor, before you specialise on looking at teeth) and it’s something he often brings up. Which is stupid in my opinion. As a lot of it if a dentist or surgeon comes down to how good you are with your hands. You could be a genius but if your co-ordination is rubbish you won’t pass your degree.

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4 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

Yeah. It’s something I disagree with. My old man was a dentist (the first couple of years of the course is identical to if you’re training to be a doctor, before you specialise on looking at teeth) and it’s something he often brings up. Which is stupid in my opinion. As a lot of it if a dentist or surgeon comes down to how good you are with your hands. You could be a genius but if your co-ordination is rubbish you won’t pass your degree.

And rightly so.  

Is it true that it is more difficult to become a vet than a medical practitioner? 

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4 minutes ago, One percent said:

And rightly so.  

Is it true that it is more difficult to become a vet than a medical practitioner? 

I don’t know. Arguably you have to learn more, and saving human lives is regarded as being politically more important than saving a cat, so I’d expect more government funding would go towards medical degrees, so it is quite possibe.

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Firstly doctors aren't necessarily intelligent, it's remembering things rather than innovating in 99% of roles.

 

The government literally plucks a figure out of the air as to how many doctors can be trained. 

 

Why not let the market take care of it?

 

Theres now thousands of Brits going to central Europe to train as doctors and dentists as they can't get a place here. Nothing wrong with their competence.

 

It's also far cheaper to train there than here. Why not outsource the training instead of allowing the BMA it's monopoly?

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13 hours ago, ThoughtCriminal said:

Firstly doctors aren't necessarily intelligent, it's remembering things rather than innovating in 99% of roles.

 

The government literally plucks a figure out of the air as to how many doctors can be trained. 

 

Why not let the market take care of it?

 

Theres now thousands of Brits going to central Europe to train as doctors and dentists as they can't get a place here. Nothing wrong with their competence.

 

It's also far cheaper to train there than here. Why not outsource the training instead of allowing the BMA it's monopoly?

Last two times I visited the doctor, I got a Local (well British, anyway) lass, and a Doctor Rhanphanthanwigwam or similar. Both were gout complaints. Both gave me an entirely different list of foods to avoid, often in direct contradiction with each other. I guess NHSdirect was down on one occasion. 

 

On 14/06/2018 at 07:31, No Duff said:

Not sure if this is economic or "other".  Immigration certainly impacts house prices though.

So the government is relaxing the tier 2 visa rules and numbers  This is the cap on skilled non EU immigration.

Typical dubious reporting by the pro big business BBC:

. Emphasis (smokescreen) on doctors and nurses who may come out of the cap but the changes go well beyond this.

. They only talk about 10,000 doctor vacancies and 35,000 nurses vacancies per year - is this the gross figure or after all our own home trained doctors (ie. net vacancies)?

. Apparently they're "highly skilled".  My HR friend says only sometimes, open to abuse.

. Had both the pro and con people on the Today programme but subsequent news soundbites only include the pro person,  the same one who said it's all good because it makes for a "vibrant" NHS!

Our country has one of the highest number of foreign doctors and nurses.  But then our home grown nurses need a degree and a load of debt!  Maybe it would be better for them if they trained overseas!

What's the point of Bexit if big business can still bring in what it wants - cheap or those trained at someone else's expense. 

More neo liberal cr*p and a further attack on skilled worker wages, having already hollowed out the unskilled.  Presumably the trick for big business is to make out like bandits before demand dries up because of lower incomes.

Note they are announcing this in advance of their forthcomming statement on immigration post Brexit.

Bet Brexit does naff all on immigration, the key driver for the vote in the first place.  But then I digress in thinking we control things rather than big business. 

Welcome to the "managed" democracy!

 

There seems to be a closing of ranks in discussion of Immigration. The right wing press have gone all but silent over it since Brexit, no politician dare mention it. Odd, given it seems to be causing governments to fall across the continent, and yet, even after Merkelism, migrants from outside Europe seem a lot less prevalent in most European countries (bar perhaps France and parts of Holland) compared to the UK.

 

I do wonder about the abuse. We seem to have a permanent shortage of curry chefs. I don't go in for curries, but when I look in the window of the local kebab shop, there seems to be a new 'chef' almost every week. How long do these curry chefs remain curry chefs until they take some other job. How much of it is a ruse for a curry house owner to get one of his mates cousins in, (after a paper envelope has been exchanged), then his mates cousin goes off, and Mr Curry house owner repeats and repeats. 

 

How long does the average foreign doctor remain? Do they have to return if they do something other than being a doctor? Doubt it. 

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7 hours ago, PatronizingGit said:

Last two times I visited the doctor, I got a Local (well British, anyway) lass, and a Doctor Rhanphanthanwigwam or similar. Both were gout complaints. Both gave me an entirely different list of foods to avoid, often in direct contradiction with each other. I guess NHSdirect was down on one occasion. 

 

 

There seems to be a closing of ranks in discussion of Immigration. The right wing press have gone all but silent over it since Brexit, no politician dare mention it. Odd, given it seems to be causing governments to fall across the continent, and yet, even after Merkelism, migrants from outside Europe seem a lot less prevalent in most European countries (bar perhaps France and parts of Holland) compared to the UK.

 

I do wonder about the abuse. We seem to have a permanent shortage of curry chefs. I don't go in for curries, but when I look in the window of the local kebab shop, there seems to be a new 'chef' almost every week. How long do these curry chefs remain curry chefs until they take some other job. How much of it is a ruse for a curry house owner to get one of his mates cousins in, (after a paper envelope has been exchanged), then his mates cousin goes off, and Mr Curry house owner repeats and repeats. 

 

How long does the average foreign doctor remain? Do they have to return if they do something other than being a doctor? Doubt it. 

I've had doctors recommend me drugs that are well known to be fatal for my condition on known four separate occasions.

 

Geniuses they are not.

 

Theres a huge tide building in this country that would sweep a genuinely nationalist party to power.

 

Shame we don't have one.

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Posted (edited)

Wonder how many doctors and nurses are needed due to mass immigration and how many of these immigrant families are net contributors to the NHS and other public services.

Maybe those who benefit from the low wages, such as luvvies and businesses, should start paying all the social on-costs, rather than those they are impoverishing.

Edited by No Duff

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5 hours ago, No Duff said:

Wonder how many doctors and nurses are needed due to mass immigration and how many of these immigrant families are net contributors to the NHS and other public services.

Maybe those who benefit from the low wages, such as luvvies and businesses, should start paying all the social on-costs, rather than those they are impoverishing.

The amount of 'births to foreign born mothers' In England and Wales is quite staggering...up to 28.2% as of last year. (add in 2nd, 3rd gen migrants, and it approaches 40%) 

For context, in that 'nation of immigrants', the USA, births to foreign born mothers in the US never once exceeded 21%. Not in the early 20th century immigration boom, nor the mid 90s to mid 2000's boom...

2012-us-birth-rate-00-05.png

 

Then theres birth defects in the Pakistani community, higher obesity prevalence and diabetes in South Asians as a whole...

 

I simply don't understand it. We have, supposedly, one of the highest participation rates in the western world. We're a compact country with few natural disasters or extreme weather that shouldnt require much maintainence relative to others. Most of our production needs are offshored, and massive automation has already taken place. Should be a massive pool of free labour available. We've already had, since the mid 90s, probably the highest rate of net immigration for any large western nation (perhaps Ireland had higher between 2000-2005, but its a far smaller country), our 45-65 baby boom was far more muted than places like Japan/Korea & Italy, so we shouldnt have more elderly to take care of (particularly as many of them emigrated in the 1970-83 brain drain. Nor was our baby bust from mid 90s to mid 2000's as bad as many other nations.  And yet the calls for more open borders policies are endless. Compare this to the 1990s, before immigration fetishism went mainstream, when the ONS, on UN data, in its population trends circulars, said existing migration levels in the UK (20 to 30,000 annually) were more than sufficient to offset natural population decline...

"For some countries, including the UK, the level of migration required to offset total population decline is broadly comparable to that actually experienced during the 1990s. For countries such as Italy and Japan, however, required levels would be much higher than those experienced in the recent past" ONS population trends quarterly, issue 100, summer 2000. 

Indeed, the GAD, for its pensions calculations (as stated in population trends issues 90 & 91), back in 1994 assumed net migration of 50,000 annually from 1996 to 2009, tending down thereafter, and hitting 0...by 2019, and staying there thereafter. And here we are with massive immigration since, and pensions are in a far worse state than predicted 20 years ago.

I find it telling that for all the recent talk of 'replacement migration', we already had a level considered, by the UN and ONS, to be sufficient to make up for depopulation and emigration during the 1990s. What we've had since is replacement migration times five or six. The level of migration since 1998 has been entirely political, not natural, as shown by the tripling of annual immigration between 1998 and 1999 in just one year. Thats not a natural, organic change that materialized over many years, thats deliberate policy.

 

 

A lot of it is, I believe, due to tax credits. If you pay people to work, they will work, even if those jobs should not exist. 20 years ago, almost all car washes were fully automated. Now, most seem to be manual again. If we reduced the min wage further and increased tax credits to compensate, you could probably encourage a situation where we'd have a shoe shine boy fresh off the boat from Eritrea on every street corner. Most the cost is hidden to the consumer, but as said shoe shine boy is employed, he is apparently a boon to the economy (well, unless he gets ill, has kids, commits a crime, or god forbid, retires, or has his tax credits included in calculations etc) and thus a stellar argument for more immigration. Is that really the model we want to pursue? Notice in older immigration figures, net immigration actually went into reverse in the early 80s and early 90s recessions. Despite unemployment in 2009/10 climbing to levels not seen for 20 years, net immigration remained in six figures, despite a large pool of local unemployeds. Seems a strange kind of labour market that allows for this. 

Also, non-job, make work schemes are endemic. Close down every other university and I doubt the real economy would notice. 

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So...more immigrants...more money to give them jobs....more tax to pay for them....all living in tax payer supported shite new builds.

 

Couldnt make it up.

 

The Tories are out of control, the have no intention of rebalancing anything...just profiting from the sheeple

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1 hour ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

The Tories are out of control, the have no intention of rebalancing anything...just profiting from the sheeple

They are owned by the beneficiaries - big business.  Labour is owned by their beneficiaries - deluded luvvies and the need to build a voter base and client state.  Joe public can feck off and say "thank you sir, may I have another", until it all kicks off and then god help us 'cause they've got to be ready for it.  We're meant to be a nation.  The across the board corruption is sickening.

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6 hours ago, PatronizingGit said:

The amount of 'births to foreign born mothers' In England and Wales is quite staggering........

Excellent thanks.  Clearly, it's all about the money, as it always is.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

......The Tories are out of control, the have no intention of rebalancing anything...just profiting from the sheeple

Presumably they don't even care, or the data is very interestingly at odds, that most immigrants will presumably be natural labour voters.

Edited by No Duff

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1 minute ago, No Duff said:

Presumably they don't even care, or the data is very interestingly at odds, that most immigrants will presumably be natural labour voters.

Or, it’s not about votes but about the political parties doing what they are told by those who are really in control 

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4 minutes ago, One percent said:

Or, it’s not about votes but about the political parties doing what they are told by those who are really in control 

In which their big business overlords have reached a new low in short-termism or want full on facism (being the merger of state and corporates).

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On 15/06/2018 at 19:43, Castlevania said:

I don’t know the accountancy. But it’s really expensive as it’s hugely hands on. It’s a proper full time degree. You spend ages cutting up cadavers and what have you.

EDIT: it’s a bit less than that according to full fact. https://fullfact.org/health/cost-training-doctor/ 

Still a lot more expensive than running an English Literature course of 6 hours of lectures a week.

Ultimately it comes down to, A. why spend the money when you can hire from abroad and another country’s tax payer will have paid for the training and B. If you increased the number of training places you’d have to let in less intelligent people. It’s only medical professionals who care about this, but still.

We should train more than we need. All the surplus medical staff would be our gift to the world. 

Or else we could just pay them less because of supply and demand. Actually overall it might actually work out cheaper.

xD

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