Care Homes and Interest Rates

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

 

Care homes operators have warned that a recent surge in mortgage rates and a delay to government reforms will sound a “death knell” for some UK providers.

The number of registered care homes fell to 12,224 on May 31 from 12,280 at the start of the year, according to data shared with the Financial Times by carehome.co.uk, a care home review site. 

The rate of closures in England slowed in the first half of 2023, compared with the same period in 2022. However, a rise in mortgage rates threatens to increase the burdens on the care sector, compounding rising food and fuel prices and funding shortfalls.

“We are facing some extremely challenging times,” said Nadra Ahmed, chair of the National Care Association, a professional body. “There are vulnerable providers out there right now and there are a lot [of homes] that will be on the market.”

The challenges encountered by some operators would make their businesses “unviable”, she added, citing Pelham House in Kent as one of the latest to hit financial trouble. “Sadly they had to make the decision after 40 years to shut their doors,” she said.

“If you’ve got mortgages that’s going to have an impact on your ability to repay your borrowings.”

The Bank of England increased interest rates by 0.5 percentage points to 5 per cent in June in an effort to tame inflation, leading to rises in monthly mortgage repayments for borrowers on variable rates.

[sancho panza]

Here's one in a regular search area.Wondered why it had come up?

16 beds and in an old house.I go to old folks homes with work and most of the newer ones are 40+ residents with ample room for hoisting kit to move in and out of rooms.All are purpose built.

The place below just isn't cost effective in this environment.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/132566774#/?channel=RES_BUY

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

3 minutes ago, sancho panza said:

Here's one in a regular search area.Wondered why it had come up?

16 beds and in an old house.I go to old folks homes with work and most of the newer ones are 40+ residents with ample room for hoisting kit to move in and out of rooms.All are purpose built.

The place below just isn't cost effective in this environment.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/132566774#/?channel=RES_BUY

 

Also, there is no way any of these firms should be bailed out, though expect them to try and pull on heartstrings to lobby Government.

[Bilbo]

My father in law was having troubles getting a refund for overpayment of fees when his wife died. I took up the challenge and looked at the company records. Looked like the only way that they were making money was by regular  building revaluations and then remortgage

 The money was not reinvested in the home so it probably went in the owners pockets.

Anyway I got the money back by finding the owners private address and a threatening to go to small claims court. Cheque by return mail.

And yes owners were Indian , this has been a market that has attracted them. A local Indian care home owner has recently purchased the old Cliff Key brewery a very large building and is looking to convert to care home.

 

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

7 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

And yes owners were Indian , this has been a market that has attracted them. A local Indian care home owner has recently purchased the old Cliff Key brewery a very large building and is looking to convert to care home.

 

 

We need more breweries, not care homes.

 

[Sugarlips]

4 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

 

We need more breweries, not care homes.

 

The residents f the care homes are the only ones that can afford £5 a pint, may I suggest a hybrid..?

[King Penda]

The future will be more live in carers ie week on week off at grans gaff or a carer will look after a couple in there own home .I’m not joking it’s going to be cheaper the carer will get more cash less red tape but cqc won’t like it 1 bit .

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

9 minutes ago, Sugarlips said:

The residents f the care homes are the only ones that can afford £5 a pint, may I suggest a hybrid..?

 

Yes, those old folk can be lavish with their pensions......even after they are dead....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12327139/Irishman-41-dragged-uncles-lifeless-corpse-post-office-withdraw-dead-relatives-246-pension-jailed.html

[Sugarlips]

I forget who posted it here but supposedly some of these assisted retirement flats (McCarthy & Stone etc) have collapsed in price over the last decade. No doubt the mgmt fees are horrendous but if/when faced with having to help sort my folks I’d be looking into them if they are in a sweet spot for a buyer currently/going forward.

[Bilbo]

6 minutes ago, King Penda said:

The future will be more live in carers ie week on week off at grans gaff or a carer will look after a couple in there own home .I’m not joking it’s going to be cheaper the carer will get more cash less red tape but cqc won’t like it 1 bit .

Yes mother in law had live in carers for a couple of years before the dementia got so bad they couldn't cope. Some of the careers were brilliant. But one couldn't even make toast.

If anyone is interested Tolly Cobbold brewery..and it's sad demise.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolly_Cobbold

[King Penda]

29 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

Yes mother in law had live in carers for a couple of years before the dementia got so bad they couldn't cope. Some of the careers were brilliant. But one couldn't even make toast.

If anyone is interested Tolly Cobbold brewery..and it's sad demise.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolly_Cobbold

Yes once dementia gets to advanced they can be insanely hard work .much better to look after those whose body’s have given up but they still have there marbles 

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

49 minutes ago, King Penda said:

Yes once dementia gets to advanced they can be insanely hard work .much better to look after those whose body’s have given up but they still have there marbles 

The dementia cases really should be treated as brain dead in my opinion.

[Axeman123]

That widespread business model of selling the property and leasing back to take advantage of low interest rates looking incredibly sensible today then...

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

1 hour ago, Bilbo said:

Yes mother in law had live in carers for a couple of years before the dementia got so bad they couldn't cope. Some of the careers were brilliant. But one couldn't even make toast.

If anyone is interested Tolly Cobbold brewery..and it's sad demise.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolly_Cobbold

 

Yes, remember its later incarnations well, though importantly before Ridley's and Greene King.  It was popular in Cambridge in the 1990s as a student drink.

Loss of old breweries that have a good product and also old restaurants does rather annoy me.

I'm still pissed off about Simpson Tavern in the city being closed by the landlord:

https://simpsonstavern.co.uk/

 

[King Penda]

1 hour ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

The dementia cases really should be treated as brain dead in my opinion.

They are basicly I try an avoid dementia units they are soul destroying where I’m going tonight has taken one on he is most dangerous to himself and the other fragile old dears . The management won’t admit they fucked up taking him I’m like you got stiched right up why do you think he has been in 3 different places in under 5 months. They have others will milder dementia you can reason with them this guy is probably 6ft 16 stone and still quite strong he will hurt himself badly soon he keeps falling over.

[Frank Hovis]

3 hours ago, Axeman123 said:

That widespread business model of selling the property and leasing back to take advantage of low interest rates looking incredibly sensible today then...

 

A lot of them were bought up by private equity groups who loaded them up with vast amounts of debt, took the money out of the group, and left them struggling to make enough money to cover the debt interest.

Now that interest rates have gone up any who are on floating rates or who need to refinance will be dead in the water.

I have been saying this for a while and, unlike the housing market, a mass failure was looking inevitable anyway. A return to proper interest rates will just make it happen more quickly.

[Frank Hovis]

5 hours ago, Sugarlips said:

I forget who posted it here but supposedly some of these assisted retirement flats (McCarthy & Stone etc) have collapsed in price over the last decade. No doubt the mgmt fees are horrendous but if/when faced with having to help sort my folks I’d be looking into them if they are in a sweet spot for a buyer currently/going forward.

 

It's not that they have collapsed in price but rather that the second seller finds that the price they paid for the flat was well over the odds.

A typical resale value is 40% - 60% of the original price.

My aunt cleverly sidestepped any price falls by choosing to rent her retirement flat, whilst avoiding IHT by passing on her house at that point. Assuming that she lives for, now, another five years.

[Axeman123]

2 hours ago, King Penda said:

he will hurt himself badly soon he keeps falling over.

laughing emoji if that is meant as a joke, ie he will get hurt rather than you if it comes to it.

This sounds terrible, but: Can you train dementia cases like a dog? So for example if that one attacks you a few times and comes off worst each time (I am not revelling in it etc) would they retain a primal wariness of doing it to you again? I know they can't remember a lot of new or even recent stuff, I was just wondering if basic conditioning still worked to some degree.

[spygirl]

Serene Care

Jay Dodhia, chief executive and co-founder of Serene Care, established with his wife Palvi, renovates and runs failing care homes. He said its model had been resilient but cautioned that rising interest rates could be particularly challenging for new builds. “Most care homes are [on] variable rates — even when rates were very low it was very hard to get fixed rates on care home mortgages,” he said. “As the variable rate or the underlying BoE rate crept up, so have our interest payments.” “Everything in isolation will affect you, if you put it all together — the rising inflation, utilities, food costs, staffing challenges . . . it could be a death knell for several [providers],” said Dodhia.

 

 

Here they are

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/Lq8jqTVIQBelXZmqoFxivX9Y9nE/appointments

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/t_VXVLidVdFJTXD8M95NwkMX1kM/appointments

Those over leveraged subcontinent cunt weasels can fuck off.

 

[spygirl]

5 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

The dementia cases really should be treated as brain dead in my opinion.

Not even that.

Average life expectancy on going into a home is months. Very very expensive, pointless, grim months.

Need to offer an acceratated death. 

Spending money on care n standards on care homes is a total fucking waste of time.

Even the expensive regulated ones are grim.

Big house down the Road from where I grew up was turned into a home.

Mam ended up doing odd nightshirfts.

It went from being a big manor house eith beds shoved in - cheap n cheerful local wimmin, cooking, cleaning doling out pills.

To having constant nursing staff and heavily regulated.

Do you kniw how many people lived a long full filling time, walking out cured 9f old age?

None.

I'm very much a large bucket of water round back when it comes to care of tte over 75s.

I'm all for in home support - providing they live somewhere with  walkable care staff.

800/w to sit and piss in a chair?  Fuckit.

 

 

[PatronizingGit]

3 hours ago, spygirl said:

Serene Care

Jay Dodhia, chief executive and co-founder of Serene Care, established with his wife Palvi, renovates and runs failing care homes. He said its model had been resilient but cautioned that rising interest rates could be particularly challenging for new builds. “Most care homes are [on] variable rates — even when rates were very low it was very hard to get fixed rates on care home mortgages,” he said. “As the variable rate or the underlying BoE rate crept up, so have our interest payments.” “Everything in isolation will affect you, if you put it all together — the rising inflation, utilities, food costs, staffing challenges . . . it could be a death knell for several [providers],” said Dodhia.

 

 

Here they are

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/Lq8jqTVIQBelXZmqoFxivX9Y9nE/appointments

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/t_VXVLidVdFJTXD8M95NwkMX1kM/appointments

Those over leveraged subcontinent cunt weasels can fuck off.

 

Was going to say vittually every 'care' home needing more than a little investment around here is run by a Pajeet complete with bentley continental & tacky mansion. 

 

Oh, im sure they are the model minority in terms of their personal tax returns, much like the Ugandan ones were when they used their mercantilist status to bring in textiles & undercut UK producers & accelerate mass unemployment. 

[sancho panza]

relevant discussion in another thread. Ina has legal background.Me 'Powermedic' as my 5 year old says.

7 hours ago, Ina said:

There are 2 separate issues at least in respect of property in that prices are collapsing in my field of dealing with dead peoples houses.  Also the conveyancing process is taking approximately 4 months.  Until very recently ie last year doer uppers saw a probate property as the easiest means to escalate the property ladder.  What I’m noticing as I drive around is that the doer uppers are obsessed with dark grey window frames and expensive lighting plus super expensive bathrooms and kitchens.  Economically it is unviable.

Regarding Africans and the recent arrivals I’m seeing they are employed as carers for agencies either working in people’s houses or filling the gaps in nursing homes.  I’ve had to file a few complaints as they have little empathy with frail old people.  And they’ve been vile when I’ve been there so god knows what they are like when I’m not.

 

1 hour ago, sancho panza said:

Interesting comments Ina.From my perspective as ambulance staff.

I see some of the higher quality care homes ie the ones I'd book into and they have some high quality African/Asian/Phillipine etc staff but are generally majority native Brits of all ethnicities.Generally,these homes retain staff (unless the gubbermint are enforcing vaxx mandates) because they're well managed,slightly better paid,have solid staff/patient ratios and generally nice places to work in terms of the environment(generally purpose built with lifting kit and working lifts).These places genreally don't smell like old people's homes.

At the other end are the places that struggle to hire native Brits for a variety of reasons-pay,working conditions ie small rooms/windy corridors/small or no lifts,poor staff/patient ratios,bullying bosses,greedy owners,smelly working environment due to either poor cleaning or the home being hard to keep clean.

These latter places were struggling before the Govt decided to get rid of 50,000 carers with the vaxx mandates.The tally was likely higher as many left the industry before the mandate came in.Post mandate the only way they could fill it was with people recruited from abroad.

I've been in one or two homes where they have the issues you describe and as someone who attends these places weekly,you can really sense the rapport between patients and staff when it's good and when it's not.

A recent example was an old boy who was reporting symptoms that were generally incompatible with his presenting complaint.My crew mate tried to discharge at scene but I sensed somethign was wrong.As soon as we were in the vehicle,I asked him if everything was ok in the home and he opened up about how the carers were treating him callously,weren't fulfilling his basic needs(pad changes/food etc) and that he wanted to go to another home(he was bed bound so literally relied on the staff for everything).Very sad.We filed a safeguarding but you could tell from the state of the place that he was probably telling the truth.The staff were nice to me but some had very poor English and had all been recruited by the owner abroad.In my expereince caring is a job that needs a strong nose/stomach and loads of patience.The commercial reasons driving the owners recruitment policy meant he appeared to recruiting people who were applying for the wrong reasons.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh,it's just my expereince.You get what you pay for in life.

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by sancho panza

[spygirl]

Care home and modern salvery made the radio this AM.

 

Some African shipped over, promsied x, paid fuck all then threadted by the owenrs who were related to a important policticani nthe home country ...

However the radio left out a lot of info.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66260064

 

She was interviewed in person, took an English test, and had to provide proof of her work experience. She was promised a job as a care assistant in the UK through a care company. She was told she would earn up to £29,000.

For Terri, who was in an abusive marriage, the job was the perfect opportunity to escape with her three children.

"Butterflies were going through me, it was one of the best days of my life," she says.

Terri brought her mother with her to the UK, so she could look after Terri's children. Although Terri would be provided with somewhere to stay through the care company, depending on where she was asked to work, the children and their grandmother went into private rented accommodation.

You niight want to guess how much this wokrer is costing the UK tax payer.

I make it ~70k/y.

 

[King Penda]

On 23/07/2023 at 15:41, Axeman123 said:

laughing emoji if that is meant as a joke, ie he will get hurt rather than you if it comes to it.

This sounds terrible, but: Can you train dementia cases like a dog? So for example if that one attacks you a few times and comes off worst each time (I am not revelling in it etc) would they retain a primal wariness of doing it to you again? I know they can't remember a lot of new or even recent stuff, I was just wondering if basic conditioning still worked to some degree.

No I let them do what they want no restraining at this place at all.you can guide a prompt offer advice that’s it. It’s a residential place he is not suitable 

[Stuey]

On 23/07/2023 at 10:20, King Penda said:

The future will be more live in carers ie week on week off at grans gaff or a carer will look after a couple in there own home .I’m not joking it’s going to be cheaper the carer will get more cash less red tape but cqc won’t like it 1 bit .

I think a combination of this and converted high rise city centre flats with everything under one roof.

I don't think 10-20 bedder care homes are the right size at all. 

It'll be like the pub market turning into huge Wetherspoons and micropubs, with the mid-size being out-competed on both sides.