What is the long term outlook for big apartment blocks?

[JoeDavola]

I live in a large-ish apartment block, one of the best ones in the city IMO in terms of build quality, built in the late 90's AFAIK.

It's not been without it's troubles financially i.e. with the managment company ending up in the hole, but the problems are minor compared to just about every block built since 2005 in the city which have all had major problems and in some cases have been rendered uninhabitable by major building flaws less than 15 years after they were built.

I enjoy living in an apartment, but one of the things that puts me off owning one is I'd be unsure how the costs of maintaining these buildings will swell as they age, not just via inflation of costs in general but also with the amount of maintenance increasing in an ageing building.

So for example if I at 39 bought a flat where I live (putting most of my savings into owning said flat), I'd not be confident that over the next say 40 years of my life there wouldn't be some major problems that would crop up, huge bills needing paid at some point and what if some people don't pay their share etc.

So my question is does anyone know of case studies of how older apartment blocks have aged over a 50-100 year period, were they built better in the old days or is it quite common to reach a tipping point where the costs of maintenance are eye watering.

I remember many years ago Frank mentioned for example that lifts generally need replacing after 25 or 30 years.

I've been in old art-deco type apartment blocks that I presume were built in the 30's, two examples I can think of are in New York and Budapest, and they're still standing strong but they did seem to be more solidly built than the new stuff.

Edited April 9, 2023 by JoeDavola

[AlfredTheLittle]

What's the point in worrying about what happens in the next 40 years? You could equally buy a detached house and find that in the next 40 years it falls down. If you like where you are now, your best option might be just to keep renting the one you've got.

In the long-term they will all end up like this:

 

[MrPin]

I wouldn't buy a high rise flat. OK for renting. Maintenance will be a nightmare.

[Axeman123]

2 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

So my question is does anyone know of case studies of how older apartment blocks have aged over a 50-100 year period, were they built better in the old days or is it quite common to reach a tipping point where the costs of maintenance are eye watering.

I don't think older buildings will be a good guide, as the construction techniques are very different -There are no long-term examples of modern construction method blocks to refer to. If you look at how rapidly modern blocks cosmetically age externally they aren't goin to last a very long time IMO.

Beyond the fire issue the external cladding typically used is probably going to need replacing as often as a roof, as at least in my mind the materials/construction etc are very similar. That isn't going to be cheap.

If I was buying a flat in a big block or tower (I wouldn't) I would want the building to be <5 years old, and aim to move it on within 20 yrs to buy another fairly new one (or something radically different).

[F150]

Optimal is 4-6 floors

[JoeDavola]

54 minutes ago, F150 said:

Optimal is 4-6 floors

What problems occur more frequently above and below this range? 

Edited April 9, 2023 by JoeDavola

[spygirl]

18 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

What problems occur more frequently above and below this range? 

Below- more expensive.

Higher - everything.

Never buy a flat. Rent.

[King Penda]

The joys of owning a house you can actually insure it and burn it down . You get more back than the cost of a rebuild but your neighbours might be a bit pissed off . Give me some wire wool

a 9 volt battery and a normal watch remove the second hand and minnute hands and I could make an effective timed fire bomb in around 10 minnutes.

[Frank Hovis]

I don't know about case studies but the nature of such blocks means that when the big renovations fall due they come with  enormous costs.

There is, somewhat surpirisngly, just one tower block in Cornwall and that not too big.  This one in St Austell.

 

There are however some huge ones in Plymouth and these receive occasional massive bills.

The ones I read about are social housing blocks but the only two things that would differentiate these from private owned blocks are: the majority of those living there are renting directlt from the landlord, and works are done to schedule so that the block remains inhabitable.

 

Where you have a block from the 1960s or 1970s it is highly possible that nothing but minor work has been done for fifty years.  If you did nothing to a house for fifty years and then did everything all in one go then the bills will be eye watering. 

Repoint all the brickwork, replace all the windows, replace the roof, repair all the internals - stair wells, communal areas, new lift and so on.

Bills for this, when tehy come, typically start at £30k and go up from there.

£146k is the highest I have seen.

£146,257 – the highest major works bill ever?

April 9, 2019 //  by Admin2

Leaseholders at Tustin Estate run by Southwark Council have had an estimated major works bill at a staggering £146,257.22p for a two bedroom flat.

This may well be the highest bills ever to have been sent out in the social sector. If anyone has seen a larger bill per flat for a social sector major works project please let us know.

https://www.leaseholdknowledge.com/highest-major-works-bill-ever/

 

The simple answer is that when you are considering buying a leasehold flat in a block which is thirty, or even twenty, years old or more then your first question should be "When did the last set of major renovations take place and how much did they cost per flat?". 

If it was, say, £40k in the last ten years then I would be fine with buying.  If however "answer came there none" then that massive bill is in the post and heading your way.

A £120k leasehold flat in a social housing block may sound cheap, but what if you're actually going to paying a further £30k, £40k, £60k? 

[Boon]

I remember reading about that, but I'm guessing what transpired is that the council just bought them out:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/may/18/a-terrible-shock-council-flat-owner-bill-tustin-estate

It's hard to know how things might go in the future.

There were many other social housing blocks put up in London in the 60s. Some actually have gone now, so they had a life of around 40 years. I think the reasons for that were several, build quality being one. But they were also an eyesore and they also held a concentration of the most deprived people, making the area shit. Eventually I think all of these high-rises will end up going.

But then also something like the Barbican estate is also an eyesore really but that seems never to be up for demolition. But that contains less poor people as those flats got sold on over time.

I don't fancy the modern ones which are run by companies for profit. They look nice on the outside superficially but contain problems inside. If you already live in one then you might have a good guide as to what is going wrong. 

Also your time horizon and future intentions need to be taken into consideration. In my view the values of these type of flats are crippled by the service charge. Without RTM it seems that the management company can easily embellish a lot of things and the residents won't have the firepower to effectively challenge it. 

So a real life example for a flat I know, service charge a month started in 2016 at a bit over £200. In 2023 it's getting close to £400 and might go over that in 2024. What might it be like in 2030 or 2040?

I also know flats where the charge has just gotten ridiculously out of hand already. They are pretty much unsellable now and only will be if interest rates go back to 0% and BTL idiots pile back in.

[Option5]

19 minutes ago, Boon said:

But they were also an eyesore and they also held a concentration of the most deprived people, making the area shit. Eventually I think all of these high-rises will end up going.

Vertical slums.

[Covid19 and life to go]

They'll be turned into massive laser quest type places for the elites after we've all been wiped out by the robots.

[Loki]

Just my opinion based on what I do for a living, the only one I would consider owning is a former office block that has been converted into flats, ideally say 20 - 30 years old

Even then I wouldn't be keen, but if I had to that's what I would do

[Joncrete Cungle]

2 hours ago, Option5 said:

Vertical slums.

Like the Battle of Mogadishu.

 

[JoeDavola]

The maintanance fees will be interesting over the next few years given the inflation we're experiencing.

The ones in my block (that I don't pay as a dirty renter) apparently jumped £200 in the last year to about £1500 and apparently a big part of why that happened was the soaring cost of buildings insurance.

I know of other blocks in Belfast where the maintenance fees are getting nearer to £2K. Then add your council tax on top of that. And there's no guarantee you won't be hit for more than the maintanance fee if big repair bills come in.

Shame as I do like living in a flat but it does seem to be too big a risk to be putting most of one's net worth into owning one.

There's a couple of developments of apartments that I know of in NI that IMO are how flats 'should' be built, example given below...there's 4 flats in each building, 3 bedrooms about 95m2 each and with a private garage for each flat at the back. And crucially, no expensive lift to maintain...

Edited April 10, 2023 by JoeDavola

[Frank Hovis]

11 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

Shame as I do like living in a flat but it does seem to be too big a risk to be putting most of one's net worth into owning one.

 

The standard mantra is to rent flats and buy houses.

I haven't precisiely followed that myself but I think it a good idea where it is practical to do so.

There is also the question of how much time you wish to put into a property, a flat takes up very little of your time but a house and garden certainly does so.

I had a five or six year period of my life where I was "never at home", more precisely I was typically in my flat for three nights a week and then did little bar sleep.  Plus maybe one weekend in four.

It would have been a terrible time to have owned, or rented, a house.

 

For me, moving from renting to buying, the most recent time, was less a question of finances and more a case of thinking that despite my (fairly) impressive career my domestic life was little changed from my student days and it was about time that I had my own house and scrap of land around it; time to start putting down some solid roots and doing some practical, physical work.

[JoeDavola]

18 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

For me, moving from renting to buying, the most recent time, was less a question of finances and more a case of thinking that despite my (fairly) impressive career my domestic life was little changed from my student days and it was about time that I had my own house and scrap of land around it; time to start putting down some solid roots and doing some practical, physical work.

You are probably correct - it's a shame that I just don't like the dimensions of most houses that are within my price range, small narrow living rooms etc - there was a sweet spot about 25 years ago where flats were being built that had IMO better dimensions to the rooms than houses of a similar price do.

Edited April 10, 2023 by JoeDavola

[Frank Hovis]

8 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

You are probably correct - it's a shame that I just don't like the dimensions of most houses that are within my price range, small narrow living rooms etc - there was a sweet spot about 25 years ago where flats were being built that had IMO better dimensions to the rooms than houses of a similar price do.

 

You have to temper any move, home or job, with practicality.

I've never understood people who set deadlines for their life (want this by thirty, this by forty, retired by whenever) as life is very complicated and much of what happens is outside your control. Also, as I have noted before, be careful about what you wish for.

If something doesn't feel right at present, to you, then don't do it just because other people are telling you to do so.  I was renting years longer than my colleagues and most of my staff, it didn't worry me.  I bought when I thought the time was right.

And there was a sweet aspect as some thought I had "missed the boat" and had been "wasting my money on rent"; and then I bought for cash which was a "wow" moment for most. I didn't advertise that but there were the inevitable questions about mortgages and I didn't have one and wasn't about to pretend that I did.

 

[PETR4]

One of my "hobbies" is being the director for a leasehold apartment block managed via a Right to Manage Company (RTM)....

If I can offer the forum two pieces of advice regarding leasehold flats it is this:

1. Never buy a leasehold flat

2. Never buy a leasehold flat

I know that is technically only one point but it's such a large one I thought I'd mention it twice!

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by PETR4

[Guest]

2 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

You are probably correct - it's a shame that I just don't like the dimensions of most houses that are within my price range, small narrow living rooms etc - there was a sweet spot about 25 years ago where flats were being built that had IMO better dimensions to the rooms than houses of a similar price do.

One advantage flats have over 2 story houses is that the ratio of living space to sleeping space is not locked at 1:1 for flats.

We (family with 2 young kids) live in a 2 bedroom flat with a nice big living room and a comfortable kitchen with a couple of smallish but perfectly adequate bedrooms. This works very well for our lifestyle.

In a 2 story house with a comparable total floor space and price we would almost certainly have much less living space and be less comfortable as a result.

[wherebee]

Here you go:

 

[JoeDavola]

On 11/04/2023 at 06:58, wherebee said:

Here you go:

 

"Priced to allow for some modernization."

[UmBongo]

On 10/04/2023 at 14:59, PETR4 said:

If I can offer the forum two pieces of advice regarding leasehold flats it is this:

1. Never buy a leasehold flat

2. Never buy a leasehold flat

Ah. 

[MMax]

On 10/04/2023 at 14:34, JoeDavola said:

You are probably correct - it's a shame that I just don't like the dimensions of most houses that are within my price range, small narrow living rooms etc - there was a sweet spot about 25 years ago where flats were being built that had IMO better dimensions to the rooms than houses of a similar price do.

I can appreciate and identify with your preference for flat living. 

I have sampled different property types so can draw from experience.  I have lived in flats, terraced, detached. and even in a farmhouse.

The conclusion I came to with any accommodation is that it is a question of compromises.  What are you prepared to compromise?

My main priorities have been location, privacy, boundaries,  space, security, visual appeal, and anonymity.  This is not in order of importance.

The benefits of flat living are shared maintenance costs, communal maintenance of the fabric and environs, and security - if above ground level.  If the shtf as many on this site believe it will, then flats are more secure.

Like you, I project into the future and worry about lift, and flat roof membrane replacement etc.  However, the larger the block of flats then the lower the share would be.

I am a very private person and prefer the minimum of interaction, without being impolite.  This may be more difficult in a flatted property, although I haven't found that.  I don't even know the names of my neighbours.   It is said that anomie is more prevalent in larger flatted properties, or perhaps it's just me!

I would be interested to know how neighbour interaction is in your current flatted property.   

[JoeDavola]

8 hours ago, MMax said:

I am a very private person and prefer the minimum of interaction, without being impolite.

As am I, and so far I've found a flat far more private than most houses which I'd be able to afford; for two reaons, no kids and no dogs next door.

A high percentage of the folk I know with a house that is anything less than detached on a large plot is tortured with one or more of the above. That's the thing about flats, dog lovers and families tend to avoid them, so provided you don't have an airnb next door you actually do get more peace and quiet than a terrace or a semi, and in some cases even a detached.

My brother bought a house beside a yappy wee dog that yaps all day and a couple that were having noisy parties and sitting out in the back in their hot tub with music blaring talking at the tops of their voice. At one point he couldn't hack it and went back to live with my parents for a while during lockdown and I actually think he still goes back to theirs frequently on Saturday nights.

I'd be absoltuely fucking miserable having to live like that for the 5 years he's had to, even if his 'property' value has went up so fucking what.