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BTL selling up says independent


sarahbell

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spygirl
14 minutes ago, Joxer said:

Sitting on your hands and waiting for the eviction notice is not great advice. Better advice is to start looking for a new place as soon as you get the section 21, but don't feel rushed with the 2 months notice warning, you've got at least 6 months to find something suitable. 

90%of S21 you can ignore as they are invariably  filled in incorrectly.

S21 is a polite request, that can be ignored.

Get the LL to fill in a correct S21, which will take 2 to 3 times.

Then ignore it and wait for the eviction notice, which is at least 12 months.

 

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7 hours ago, With a crooked smile said:

And how do you think that will work out for them when they try and rent another property?

It won't matter because what they want to do is sell their rentals and buy one home to live in. They just don't can't do that in the space of two months.

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4 hours ago, Joxer said:

Sitting on your hands and waiting for the eviction notice is not great advice. Better advice is to start looking for a new place as soon as you get the section 21, but don't feel rushed with the 2 months notice warning, you've got at least 6 months to find something suitable. 

This is more what I was getting at. They want to sell their own rentals and buy their own home to live in. They can't do that in two months, but they can in six.

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sancho panza
On 11/06/2022 at 07:39, With a crooked smile said:

I do think there is a parallel universe between this site where tenants get into a property and don't pay rent and the real world.

I've been renting out property since 06. The only time I've ever had someone not pay rent was during covid. Tenant spit with boyfriend and struggled to pay rent due to being in events business. 

We significantly reduced the rent for her but she still struggled to pay it. Eventually she left to go back to her parents. Everyone was OK with what happened as we'd all been in communication with each other. Overall the mortgage got paid and we got a new tenant who's been there ever since paying in time.

A friend of mine has only experienced voids during the 2010 period when the economy was in free fall  he had lots of Eastern Europeans coming and going jn his London properties .

There's so many people chasing so few properties at the moment that it's easy to select the ones in stable well paid jobs and get a big down payment.

We always go for people with a history of renting long term and a dog . Most people don't accept dogs so I find they are less likely to move.

I wouldn't belive much of the anecdotes on here from people who aren't actually in the game. It would be great if someone from a rental agency would come on and share their perspective as they will have a wide view of what's going on.

Agreed a well informed/connected LA/EA would be a great addition to the discussion.AS you may have noted I foudn the whole c### calling issue a touch sensitveI'm here to learna nd I can't learn if obnoxious malconetents are insulting the posters with the info that enlightens us.

I worte a longer psot earlier but it got wiped.Long story short,as with investors there are a range of BTLers.The well informed/connected/shrewd will always do ok.It;s those that work the margins that I'm maintly interested in.

Love your idea with the dogs,properly cuts you a nice niche where a lot of others won't go.

Ref non payers,it's a reality,Doesn't really affect people like yourself-no offence but it's quite obvious you're switched on-it mainly affects the more marginal BTLers.The guys i know who own either a) pre select to avoid non payers b) accept it as a cost of business.Either way they're hedged.

I once spent a 12 horu shift working with a paramedic who'd had 2 non payers  on his BTL projects and they hammered him for costs as well.I can't beleive [email protected] saying this but I actually felt sorry for the guy.(I think the LA he used was dire).

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spygirl
6 hours ago, sancho panza said:

Agreed a well informed/connected LA/EA would be a great addition to the discussion.AS you may have noted I foudn the whole c### calling issue a touch sensitveI'm here to learna nd I can't learn if obnoxious malconetents are insulting the posters with the info that enlightens us.

I worte a longer psot earlier but it got wiped.Long story short,as with investors there are a range of BTLers.The well informed/connected/shrewd will always do ok.It;s those that work the margins that I'm maintly interested in.

Love your idea with the dogs,properly cuts you a nice niche where a lot of others won't go.

Ref non payers,it's a reality,Doesn't really affect people like yourself-no offence but it's quite obvious you're switched on-it mainly affects the more marginal BTLers.The guys i know who own either a) pre select to avoid non payers b) accept it as a cost of business.Either way they're hedged.

I once spent a 12 horu shift working with a paramedic who'd had 2 non payers  on his BTL projects and they hammered him for costs as well.I can't beleive [email protected] saying this but I actually felt sorry for the guy.(I think the LA he used was dire).

Its not marginal BTLers.

The IO BTL 'model' is all based on leveraging up like a loon, then extracting any increase in property, and leveraging that up too.

The model does not allow for voids.

Or the tax implication of extracting equity to use for buying another place.

Bear in mind that while the the IO BTL with 3+ BTLs only make up ~20% of IO BTLers they 'own' ~75% of the new PRS rentals since ~2002.

 

 

 

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sancho panza
23 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Its not marginal BTLers.

The IO BTL 'model' is all based on leveraging up like a loon, then extracting any increase in property, and leveraging that up too.

The model does not allow for voids.

Or the tax implication of extracting equity to use for buying another place.

Bear in mind that while the the IO BTL with 3+ BTLs only make up ~20% of IO BTLers they 'own' ~75% of the new PRS rentals since ~2002.

 

 

 

IO BTL would be my definition of marginal(in a financial sense) ie first to feel the pain

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spygirl
37 minutes ago, sancho panza said:

IO BTL would be my definition of marginal(in a financial sense) ie first to feel the pain

When hearing the early loons explain the 'model' my question then was - How do you exit?

Back then, youd face a several months servicing an empty property trying to sell it.

Today, you know face 1 to 2 years to exit it.

It was pure happy path lunacy.

 

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Sugarlips
On 08/06/2022 at 05:18, Wight Flight said:

This isn't what is happening. I don't know who is buying the houses but it isn't the tenants.

It is really brutal out there.

Met a Londoner here in Shanklin yesterday.

He caught a cold buying and restoring a wreck in ‘07 that promptly fell 40%. He’s 70 now, is packing it all in and is in the process of kicking out 3 tenants so he can flog them whilst he can get top dollar - he is still set to make 80% gross profit on his initial investment despite “the bank taking all his yield for the last 15 years”

The old ‘Cant go wrong with Bricks and mortar’ statement rang true for that boomer, bought at the last top but still made a packet just by sitting tight.

He had no sympathy for the tenant obviously, claims they’ve never worked a day in their life...

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Castlevania
8 minutes ago, spygirl said:

When hearing the early loons explain the 'model' my question then was - How do you exit?

Back then, youd face a several months servicing an empty property trying to sell it.

Today, you know face 1 to 2 years to exit it.

It was pure happy path lunacy.

 

Good point. Sell it with tenants in situ at a 20%+ discount. Or wait until the tenants leave/evict and then sell, which means voids etc until sold.

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spygirl
31 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

Good point. Sell it with tenants in situ at a 20%+ discount. Or wait until the tenants leave/evict and then sell, which means voids etc until sold.

Unless you are selling to a cash buyer then thats not really going to happen.

And if you are selling to cash buyer then its going to be a lot more than 20% off.

Solicitors always recommend you get rid of any tenants before buying a house.

IIRC banks will avoid sitting tenants when lending money.

 

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spygirl
38 minutes ago, Sugarlips said:

Met a Londoner here in Shanklin yesterday.

He caught a cold buying and restoring a wreck in ‘07 that promptly fell 40%. He’s 70 now, is packing it all in and is in the process of kicking out 3 tenants so he can flog them whilst he can get top dollar - he is still set to make 80% gross profit on his initial investment despite “the bank taking all his yield for the last 15 years”

The old ‘Cant go wrong with Bricks and mortar’ statement rang true for that boomer, bought at the last top but still made a packet just by sitting tight.

He had no sympathy for the tenant obviously, claims they’ve never worked a day in their life...

Then hell get his CGT bill.

And its not sold yet.

Theres something v weird happening - few mortgages are being issued.

 

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sarahbell
19 hours ago, Joxer said:

Sitting on your hands and waiting for the eviction notice is not great advice. Better advice is to start looking for a new place as soon as you get the section 21, but don't feel rushed with the 2 months notice warning, you've got at least 6 months to find something suitable. 

Shelter gives advice.

If you have kids or are vulnerable you might find getting evicted the easiest way to a social housing property.

Or not. Depends on how many Ukrainians are ahead of you in the queue.

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Castlevania
51 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Unless you are selling to a cash buyer then thats not really going to happen.

And if you are selling to cash buyer then its going to be a lot more than 20% off.

Solicitors always recommend you get rid of any tenants before buying a house.

IIRC banks will avoid sitting tenants when lending money.

 

You can get a buy to let mortgage. Wait for the tenants to leave and move in/convert to residential mortgage.

My mate did the above in London, and  paid 20% less than comparable flats. 

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spygirl
42 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

You can get a buy to let mortgage. Wait for the tenants to leave and move in/convert to residential mortgage.

My mate did the above in London, and  paid 20% less than comparable flats. 

Thats a 'could' get a BTL mortgage.

The banks selling IO BTL mortgages are not really the banks youd want to get a resi mortgage from.

 

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This thread prompted me to do a temperature check on my area (St Albans / Marshalswick) and boy how it's changed since 1 year or even 6 months ago.

Rental properties matching my criteria have been in short supply for a long time now, but now there's literally 0, no results.
Meanwhile, number of properties for sale meeting the same criteria has exploded. I cannot comment on price drops just yet because the properties I'm seeing hitting the market have not been available previously. The once that had been there for a long time are usually 4- or 5-bedders listead at £1mil plus that are not really on my radar.

I guess BTLers are inded taking their properties out of the rental market and leaving the game, at least to some extent.

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Hardhat
6 minutes ago, kibuc said:

This thread prompted me to do a temperature check on my area (St Albans / Marshalswick) and boy how it's changed since 1 year or even 6 months ago.

Rental properties matching my criteria have been in short supply for a long time now, but now there's literally 0, no results.
Meanwhile, number of properties for sale meeting the same criteria has exploded. I cannot comment on price drops just yet because the properties I'm seeing hitting the market have not been available previously. The once that had been there for a long time are usually 4- or 5-bedders listead at £1mil plus that are not really on my radar.

I guess BTLers are inded taking their properties out of the rental market and leaving the game, at least to some extent.

We're (almost) neighbours! We could start the St Albans junior silver miners club, meet in the Fighting Cocks once a month to review drilling reports.

Good that supply is coming on the market tbh as we want to try and buy in the next year or so.

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21 minutes ago, Hardhat said:

We're (almost) neighbours! We could start the St Albans junior silver miners club, meet in the Fighting Cocks once a month to review drilling reports.

Good that supply is coming on the market tbh as we want to try and buy in the next year or so.

I rented there for a while about 15 years ago, top end of Beech Road. Nice area.

Sharing with 2 mates, 1930s 3 bed semi. Think it was about 800 pcm total. Dread to think what it would be now!

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11 minutes ago, Hardhat said:

meet in the Fighting Cocks

You mean the Clever Cocks? :P
https://www.peta.org.uk/media/news-releases/new-name-for-britains-oldest-pub-peta-pushes-for-ye-olde-clever-cocks/

Anyway, I got stung badly by my first landlord here in UK (ended up stinging him back for thousands of £££ for various breaches of tenancy law but would much rather do without all that hassle) but the next 2 were surprisingly human-like. What has been a constant was an inexcusable inadequacy (to put it mildly) of the letting agents.

The first one was complicit in landlord's wrongdoing and was a big reason why I decided to push them for close to maximum amount.

In my second rental I worked with 3 different agencies in 2.5 years as the LL was even less impressed with them than I was. Slow to respond to various maintenance issues (including water ingress through leaking windows), they were responsible for serious damage to the property. In the end, the LL dropped them and worked with us directly.

In the current property I'm currently handled by a second agency in under 3 years and their last stunt was a real eye-opener. I might have already shared it in full on this forum, so in short they acted on the issue we reported by presenting the LL with a bill north of £1k despite our repeated claims that a) the issue hadn't even been seen by a specialist yet and b) looked to be improving and well on it's way to resolve itself. We ended up un-reporting the issue just to save the LL the unnecessary expense but I'm certain none of it will ever be communicated to him and he'll never know how itchy the agency is to spend his money willy-nilly.

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sancho panza
11 hours ago, spygirl said:

When hearing the early loons explain the 'model' my question then was - How do you exit?

Back then, youd face a several months servicing an empty property trying to sell it.

Today, you know face 1 to 2 years to exit it.

It was pure happy path lunacy.

 

As I've said,LE2 has roughly 20 months invetory for flats,2 mopnths for semis.Know which one I'd rather be trying to trade.

IO flat BTLers even more marginal than IO house BTLers...

9 hours ago, kibuc said:

This thread prompted me to do a temperature check on my area (St Albans / Marshalswick) and boy how it's changed since 1 year or even 6 months ago.

Rental properties matching my criteria have been in short supply for a long time now, but now there's literally 0, no results.
Meanwhile, number of properties for sale meeting the same criteria has exploded. I cannot comment on price drops just yet because the properties I'm seeing hitting the market have not been available previously. The once that had been there for a long time are usually 4- or 5-bedders listead at £1mil plus that are not really on my radar.

I guess BTLers are inded taking their properties out of the rental market and leaving the game, at least to some extent.

An industry crying out for some serious regulation.

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Bobthebuilder
54 minutes ago, sancho panza said:

An industry crying out for some serious regulation.

I have been getting a lot of calls recently, about gas building notification certificates. Lots of BTL selling up round here at present. I phoned gas safe today to see where I stand legally in terms of doing the certs, and they told me to walk away. So many "cheap" jobs done over the years, and they kept saying "do not get emotionally blackmailed by these clients who have 14 days to complete, walk away".

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sancho panza
53 minutes ago, Bobthebuilder said:

I have been getting a lot of calls recently, about gas building notification certificates. Lots of BTL selling up round here at present. I phoned gas safe today to see where I stand legally in terms of doing the certs, and they told me to walk away. So many "cheap" jobs done over the years, and they kept saying "do not get emotionally blackmailed by these clients who have 14 days to complete, walk away".

forgive my ignorance Bob but whats one of thsoe and what's it's signifcance?

Is that like the gas safe certificate you give out when you've checked it's safe?

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Agent ZigZag

B2L needs to be viewed as a commercial enterprise that should be policed like any other business such as hotels regarding health and safety regulations. The biggest one is fire regulations. There are 1000s of buy to let's failing to meet this simple duty of care. The banks should therefore be held accountable for irresponsible lending. In turn you would quickly find lenders surveyors declining such properties as unsuitable security that would in turn bring loads of such properties to the market. Remember Grendel Tower

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Bobthebuilder
37 minutes ago, sancho panza said:

forgive my ignorance Bob but whats one of thsoe and what's it's signifcance?

Is that like the gas safe certificate you give out when you've checked it's safe?

It is a legal form when you fit a new gas boiler, its called Benchmark, you need it for warranty etc.

You have to be gas safe registered to submit a "building control certificate", without one the installation is deemed illegal, so drop in selling price.

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sancho panza
8 hours ago, Bobthebuilder said:

It is a legal form when you fit a new gas boiler, its called Benchmark, you need it for warranty etc.

You have to be gas safe registered to submit a "building control certificate", without one the installation is deemed illegal, so drop in selling price.

I know this is like pulling teeth bob but I'm just trying to be clear.

So what you're saying is that a load of btlers didn't use a gas safe engineer to install the boiler,then when they want to sell they need to to retrospectively sign off the installation?

 

That's pretty disturbing if it's the case.legally they workshy have had a leg to stand on if anything had gone wrong in the intervening years. 

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Bobthebuilder
2 hours ago, sancho panza said:

I know this is like pulling teeth bob but I'm just trying to be clear.

So what you're saying is that a load of btlers didn't use a gas safe engineer to install the boiler,then when they want to sell they need to to retrospectively sign off the installation?

That is correct.

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