"How dare you!"

[MrXxxx]

So it looks though I am responsible for the mess we are in:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/go-back-to-work-and-we-can-cut-income-tax-by-2p-says-mel-stride/ar-AA1b4ibb?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=ffa5c00033ea4e5f8be4aa3dc2ab96a2&ei=16

I'll tell you what Mr Stride how about you give me an incentive to go back, as at the moment knowing any of my hard-earned taxes will go to support the idle AND actually put them in a financially better position that I am through working doesn't appear to motivate me....for some strange reason!

[Pip321]

21 hours ago, MrXxxx said:

So it looks though I am responsible for the mess we are in:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/go-back-to-work-and-we-can-cut-income-tax-by-2p-says-mel-stride/ar-AA1b4ibb?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=ffa5c00033ea4e5f8be4aa3dc2ab96a2&ei=16

I'll tell you what Mr Stride how about you give me an incentive to go back, as at the moment knowing any of my hard-earned taxes will go to support the idle AND actually put them in a financially better position that I am through working doesn't appear to motivate me....for some strange reason!

On of the many quotes 

“My big worry would be that the people choosing not to go back to work may regret this in a few years’ time, when it’s too late. But how you get people to understand that is quite hard”
So not only are you lazy, breaking the economy but you are too stupid to know better.

Nothing to do with benefits being increased by 10.1% whilst workers strike to try get 7%. So if you are on some benefits and still work….you see you benefits go up more then your pay….obvious answer is to shift more of your income on the inflation protected benefits and less on earned income.🤔

I genuinely never understood the term gaslighting….but I think this Mr Stride has nailed it for me. 

[JoeDavola]

Wow 400,000 fewer workers Id no idea how many had left.

Now add on the number still getting paid but who are doing fuck all or the bare minimum

[Frank Hovis]

It's happening 

The government is rapidly running out of money for the big social experiment.

And it's worried.

[One percent]

Just now, Frank Hovis said:

It's happening 

The government is rapidly running out of money for the big social experiment.

And it's worried.

It’ll come for every last store of wealth, including property before it gives up.  It can’t anyway. How do we think those newly imported British will behave if the tap’s turned off?  It won’t be pleasant.  

[Frank Hovis]

21 minutes ago, One percent said:

It’ll come for every last store of wealth, including property before it gives up.  It can’t anyway. How do we think those newly imported British will behave if the tap’s turned off?  It won’t be pleasant.  

 

It won't do that because of its reliance on rich foreigners buying UK property and paying stamp duty, so much of the UK's "wealth" and GDP is in the value of its housing stock and any attempt to start whacking that puts the government's finances into a downward spiral as capital flight begins in earnest.

It of course won't be pleasant but without the funds to do anything about it the government will have to react with heavy repression.

[spygirl]

4 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

Wow 400,000 fewer workers Id no idea how many had left.

Now add on the number still getting paid but who are doing fuck all or the bare minimum

Theres always to be a large number hitting retirement age every year.

What's gone wrong since 2005ish is that large number of young people stopped entering the PAYE workforce, followed by a large percentage of wimmin getting knocked up and dropping out of work (50%)

The numbers are terrible. But they have been for 18 years - See tax credit sadface n Wheels HE thread.

UK is hitting a wall quicker due to Coof.

[Bornagain]

6 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

It's happening 

The government is rapidly running out of money for the big social experiment.

And it's worried.

Good.

[King Penda]

On 12/05/2023 at 09:20, MrXxxx said:

So it looks though I am responsible for the mess we are in:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/go-back-to-work-and-we-can-cut-income-tax-by-2p-says-mel-stride/ar-AA1b4ibb?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=ffa5c00033ea4e5f8be4aa3dc2ab96a2&ei=16

I'll tell you what Mr Stride how about you give me an incentive to go back, as at the moment knowing any of my hard-earned taxes will go to support the idle AND actually put them in a financially better position that I am through working doesn't appear to motivate me....for some strange reason!

Another 2 years to get inflation under control lol

[King Penda]

6 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

Wow 400,000 fewer workers Id no idea how many had left.

Now add on the number still getting paid but who are doing fuck all or the bare minimum

Don’t think they can do anything about the bare minimum 

[King Penda]

6 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

It's happening 

The government is rapidly running out of money for the big social experiment.

And it's worried.

They could rapidly means test pensions .the Tory’s will be out soon and labour won’t touch any benefits 

[Virgil Caine]

2 hours ago, spygirl said:

Theres always to be a large number hitting retirement age every year.

What's gone wrong since 2005ish is that large number of young people stopped entering the PAYE workforce, followed by a large percentage of wimmin getting knocked up and dropping out of work (50%)

The numbers are terrible. But they have been for 18 years - See tax credit sadface n Wheels HE thread.

UK is hitting a wall quicker due to Coof.

Higher Education is in part to blame since it basically removes about 1.75 million people from the labour force for 3 years. Rather than aiding the U.K the University system is a big drain in it.

[spygirl]

36 minutes ago, Virgil Caine said:

Higher Education is in part to blame since it basically removes about 1.75 million people from the labour force for 3 years. Rather than aiding the U.K the University system is a big drain in it.

Outrageous slur!

I googled. UK HE student numbers - 2.8m

Yes, not all are Brits. Yes, not all are not working.

To that you need to add faculty.

HE is not known for being frugal in terms of number of employees. Paying them, yes.  

You could easily gave 3m-4m Brits tied up in HE.

[Bornagain]

1 minute ago, spygirl said:

Outrageous slur!

I googled. UK HE student numbers - 2.8m

Yes, not all are Brits. Yes, not all are not working.

To that you need to add faculty.

HE is not known for being frugal in terms of number of employees. Paying them, yes.  

You could easily gave 3m-4m Brits tied up  wasted in HE.

FTFY

[Virgil Caine]

1 minute ago, spygirl said:

Outrageous slur!

I googled. UK HE student numbers - 2.8m

Yes, not all are Brits. Yes, not all are not working.

To that you need to add faculty.

HE is not known for being frugal in terms of number of employees. Paying them, yes.  

You could easily gave 3m-4m Brits tied up in HE.

I was only counting undergraduates as I knew a good proportion of postgrads were from overseas. It is a huge number of people which ever way its cut

[Frank Hovis]

34 minutes ago, King Penda said:

They could rapidly means test pensions .the Tory’s will be out soon and labour won’t touch any benefits 

 

Why then would anyone be happy to pay NI?

There are several things they could do but they are all a disincentive to work or, if working, to work hard and not retire early.

If people see no point in working because it makes them no better off then they won't put the effort in.

In my case it would have been not doing professional qualifications, not seeking promotions, not being prepared to work any extra hours, do any business travel or long commutes.  I used to work 9 - 5 days in Switzerland with about four hours' travel at each end to get back to England. I would not even have considered that.

I know someone who has pretty much done that "laying flat" but he's only been enabled to do that because of his wife working hard and funding his hobbies.

It's hard to gauge but I reckon that I would have been about a third as productive as I have been, measured in terms of salary.  And it's not just my personal tax affairs, I won and ran profitable contracts, and so created jobs giving multiple amounts of tax and NI plus Corporation Tax.  I would not have bothered with any of that, I would have sat in one very easy low paid job for forty years with my major interests being outside of work.

Start extending that across the workforce and it's rather fecked.

400,000 Atlases have already shrugged, the rest are leaning the globe up against a wall whilst smoking a fag.

I think the governments' finances will be very interesting reading over the next few years as the debt threatens to race away beyond the event horizon.  At present we only have a forecast for 2023/24, the first year expected to be fully normal.

I doubt it will be, the excuses will be flying thick and fast whilst teh interest rate rises further to prop up the currency.

[One percent]

50 minutes ago, King Penda said:

They could rapidly means test pensions .the Tory’s will be out soon and labour won’t touch any benefits 

I think that’s coming. If they do, they have reneged on a very key part of the social contract.  I’m already annoyed with government. At that point, I’ll probably go postal.  

[Chewing Grass]

4 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

It's hard to gauge but I reckon that I would have been about a third as productive as I have been, measured in terms of salary.  And it's not just my personal tax affairs, I won and ran profitable contracts, and so created jobs giving multiple amounts of tax and NI plus Corporation Tax.  I would not have bothered with any of that, I would have sat in one very easy low paid job for forty years with my major interests being outside of work.

Start extending that across the workforce and it's rather fecked.

400,000 Atlases have already shrugged, the rest are leaning the globe up against a wall whilst smoking a fag.

That is it in a nutshell, economically I am grossing currently 75% of what I used to and paying 25% of that into a Pension to avoid punitive taxation. If I wasn't punitively taxed I would ramp up the % effort but it isn't worth it anymore. My little Co was closed two weeks ago so I'm now doing PAYE as well to simplify life. It just isn't worth the effort even though I'm at the top of my game skills wise compared to my peers.

3 minutes ago, One percent said:

I think that’s coming. If they do, they have reneged on a very key part of the social contract.  I’m already annoyed with government. At that point, I’ll probably go postal.  

Yes, sending a Letter to your MP is a good idea.

[Frank Hovis]

1 minute ago, One percent said:

I think that’s coming. If they do, they have reneged on a very key part of the social contract.  I’m already annoyed with government. At that point, I’ll probably go postal.  

 

I don't think you will.

I don't think I will.

But what it means is that anyone starting work now will see that unless they can build up a pension materially in excess of the state pension then they won't contribute to a pension.

With the long term effect of bringing in means testing being the absolute collapse of the pension industry as nobody will want to pay into one as they will be wasting their money.

Plus the government will find itself with a lot of impoverished OAPs reliant upon supplementary benefits because they will not have made any effort to provide for their retirement.

It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

[Frank Hovis]

2 minutes ago, Chewing Grass said:

That is it in a nutshell, economically I am grossing currently 75% of what I used to and paying 25% of that into a Pension to avoid punitive taxation. If I wasn't punitively taxed I would ramp up the % effort but it isn't worth it anymore. My little Co was closed two weeks ago so I'm now doing PAYE as well to simplify life. It just isn't worth the effort even though I'm at the top of my game skills wise compared to my peers.

 

Yup.

Any government that disincentivises its people from being productive is taking their country along the inevitable path to to the bread queue.

Communist and socialist governments have been doing that since they first appeared but now we have allegedly capitalist governments doing just the same.

It all ends the same way. 

Workers put in less effort as the rewards have been cut, the government has to take more off workers to fund their spending, and the result is that workers put in even less effort.

It's a negative feedback cycle that ends in starvation and collapse.

 

I found it laughable that the government said if the 400,000 workers who have stepped out of the labour force came back then they "could" cut basic rate tax from 20% to 18%.  Well maybe they could but they sure as hell won't.

[One percent]

4 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

 

I don't think you will.

I don't think I will.

But what it means is that anyone starting work now will see that unless they can build up a pension materially in excess of the state pension then they won't contribute to a pension.

With the long term effect of bringing in means testing being the absolute collapse of the pension industry as nobody will want to pay into one as they will be wasting their money.

Plus the government will find itself with a lot of impoverished OAPs reliant upon supplementary benefits because they will not have made any effort to provide for their retirement.

It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

You are correct. I probably won’t. I will want to though. On your second point, my two daughters, late 20s are beginning to question out loud, what exactly is the point of working.   I couldn’t offer a reasonable answer.  

[One percent]

5 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

 

I don't think you will.

I don't think I will.

But what it means is that anyone starting work now will see that unless they can build up a pension materially in excess of the state pension then they won't contribute to a pension.

With the long term effect of bringing in means testing being the absolute collapse of the pension industry as nobody will want to pay into one as they will be wasting their money.

Plus the government will find itself with a lot of impoverished OAPs reliant upon supplementary benefits because they will not have made any effort to provide for their retirement.

It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Another point, you say a lot of impoverished oaps.  I’ll be caught like many others with a small private pension and no recourse to public funds. As ever, it’s those just above the bennie line who will suffer the most 

[Frank Hovis]

1 minute ago, One percent said:

You are correct. I probably won’t. I will want to though. On your second point, my two daughters, late 20s are beginning to question out loud, what exactly is the point of working.   I couldn’t offer a reasonable answer.  

 

Nope.

You, like me, will (just) remember 1987 wages.

The cost of living is up 367% since then.

Net wages would need to have increased by that amount just to stand still, the hugely sub-inflationary increase of personal tax allowance and bands is going to push the required gross wages up by 450%.

Just to stand still.

I remember £20k jobs in 1987, I knew people who had them, and they were very ordinary jobs (NB - I don't mean graduate starting salaries).

Those same very ordinary jobs would need to be paying £90k these days.

Just to stand still.

They're paying £25k - £30k.

Every current worker has been robbed absolutely blind for the last twenty years.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/chaw/mm23

[Frank Hovis]

4 minutes ago, One percent said:

Another point, you say a lot of impoverished oaps.  I’ll be caught like many others with a small private pension and no recourse to public funds. As ever, it’s those just above the bennie line who will suffer the most 

 

Thus encouraging you to spend recklessly, equitry release your house and whatnot, until you dip below the bar to qualify yourself for benefits.

And then you too will be taking the benefits and the government bill will go up another notch.

I would not wish to be in the UK government these days, the finances have had it though it will take a few years for that to become obvious as the interest bill is still majority on gilts issued when rates were low so they stay low until maturity.  All new issues are going to be at the high rate so the rate of increase of the average nominal coupon will be massive.

[One percent]

16 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

 

Nope.

You, like me, will (just) remember 1987 wages.

The cost of living is up 367% since then.

Net wages would need to have increased by that amount just to stand still, the hugely sub-inflationary increase of personal tax allowance and bands is going to push the required gross wages up by 450%.

Just to stand still.

I remember £20k jobs in 1987, I knew people who had them, and they were very ordinary jobs (NB - I don't mean graduate starting salaries).

Those same very ordinary jobs would need to be paying £90k these days.

Just to stand still.

They're paying £25k - £30k.

Every current worker has been robbed absolutely blind for the last twenty years.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/chaw/mm23

A friend works in heavy industry. He’s been out of work for one reason or another since the lockdown. The jobs he is currently seeing are paying less, a lot less than pre covid.  At the moment, he’s ok and just refusing to work for that.   Weirdly, these same jobs just seem to be circulating and not getting filled. You would think that the penny would drop at some point. 

16 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

 

Thus encouraging you to spend recklessly, equitry release your house and whatnot, until you dip below the bar to qualify yourself for benefits.

And then you too will be taking the benefits and the government bill will go up another notch.

I would not wish to be in the UK government these days, the finances have had it though it will take a few years for that to become obvious as the interest bill is still majority on gilts issued when rates were low so they stay low until maturity.  All new issues are going to be at the high rate so the rate of increase of the average nominal coupon will be massive.

I’m planning on giving it to the kids.