Universities going bankrupt (either morally or financially) thread

[One percent]

1 hour ago, gaztastic said:

I can't see it either, but that's what the unis keep saying : a) £9k is only worth £6k in today's money and b) each UK student loses £2k per annum.

If you do the numbers, a small course of 30 students per cohort would bring in 30 x 3 (years of students)  x £9250 (home fees) = £830k and they reckon they are losing £180k p/a to run that.

Unis always say their costs are 50% staff and 50% infrastructure, so there's about £500k of staff costs, which seems a lot as you're only going to be teaching 6 modules per year, so even 6 lecturers to teach would about 6*£45k = £270k.

There's a lot of cost being soaked up.

There are a lot of unproductive people in universities. A lot.  The poor saps at the chalkface are supporting them all who either piss around with spreadsheets (admin) of write one book a year (professors).  

[sancho panza]

7 hours ago, gaztastic said:

I can't see it either, but that's what the unis keep saying : a) £9k is only worth £6k in today's money and b) each UK student loses £2k per annum.

If you do the numbers, a small course of 30 students per cohort would bring in 30 x 3 (years of students)  x £9250 (home fees) = £830k and they reckon they are losing £180k p/a to run that.

Unis always say their costs are 50% staff and 50% infrastructure, so there's about £500k of staff costs, which seems a lot as you're only going to be teaching 6 modules per year, so even 6 lecturers to teach would about 6*£45k = £270k.

There's a lot of cost being soaked up.

thats super work there gaz.simple maths really does get the situtiona bout right imho.

like you say there's a lot of otehr costs.

looking at cov uni which i will focus on next week,their revenue is £480mn,so £54mn going in agents fees is big;ly moolah.

and from yor figures if they cant make a profit charigng poor bastards £9k for 6/8 lectures a week in history being taught by a psot grad ,then they defintiely shuldnt be teaching people buisness studies

jut checking covs annuals and it backs up tyou point gaz

https://www.coventry.ac.uk/the-university/financial-information/finance/

6 hours ago, BurntBread said:

Anyway, the story I wanted to mention was that one of his students was independently wealthy, having only got a small start from his parents; and the source of his income was setting up a company which recruited Chinese students for Nottingham Uni.

from wiki cov is using 10% of its income on agents fees.first year that doesnt pay a return could get interesting

Edited May 17 by sancho panza

[sancho panza]

going through the cov

intersting points

1) withdrwan from USS

2) 20% drop in UK/EU stdents, 32% rise in foreigns in tax year 21-22

https://www.coventry.ac.uk/globalassets/media/global/09-about-us/key-information/financial-reports/coventry_university_group_annual_report_2022-23_signed.pdf

page 46-My comments-confirms withdarwal from USS

The deficit for the year has fallen from £32.9m in 2021/22 to £2.4m in
2022/23. However the prior year deficit was largely driven by the one
off settlement of pension liabilities of £35.9m, following the withdrawal
from the USS pension scheme, without which, a surplus would have
been delivered last year.

Full time UK and EU student fee income has reduced by 20.1% to
£125.1m (2021/22: £156.6m).
Full-time international student fee income has risen by 31.9% to
£232.8m (2021/22: £176.5m). The University continues the growthin this important activity, despite the increasingly challenging markets
we operate in.

 

Page 56-MC,big balance sheet but how much of that is CRE in the centre of cov that noone lese would want?

 

page 60-MC,problems becoming clear,some big cuts coming,also big detbs in the shape of £95mn loan coming due

The latest forecast position at the date of signing, arising from the lower
than expected intake in Autumn 2023 along with anticipated intakes
in January and May 2024 being below budgeted expectations, is that
income for the year to 31 July 2024 will be c£85m adverse to budget.

As a result of this reduction in income and the expected deficit this
creates, it has been identified that around £40m of savings will be
required in the year to 31 July 2024. This level of savings will ensure that
the EBITDA to net interest requirement is met with sufficient headroom
and also ensure that cash balances remain at a sufficient level to meet
minimum liquidity requirements. In order to meet these requirements for
the entire forecast period to 31 July 2025, additional savings of £55m will
be required in 2024/25.

Sale of non-teaching buildings is already being considered as part of
future estates strategy, and so consideration has been given to bringing
forward plans that are already in train to sell University owned buildings.
This would provide sufficient cash to repay the Private placement debt of
£95m that gives rise to the covenant requirement in respect of EBITDA to
net interest,

 

Page 65-MC- Cov clearly been recruting internationally.They got nearly more students than people live in cov and remembre accomodation at 70% occupancy

 

 

Page 67-MC_ itneresitng tosee cov is chucking £50mn at state pension and pulbic sector pension

pager 70-MC-heres where the agents costs bget buried

 

page 76-MC-interesitng to ntoe theyre reducing the valeu fo their CRE already

 

Obligations under finance leases are secured against the Godiva student accommodation. At 31 July 2023 this had a net book value of £56.3m
(2021/22 - £58.2m).

[Virgil Caine]

10 hours ago, sancho panza said:

thats super work there gaz.simple maths really does get the situtiona bout right imho.

like you say there's a lot of otehr costs.

looking at cov uni which i will focus on next week,their revenue is £480mn,so £54mn going in agents fees is big;ly moolah.

and from yor figures if they cant make a profit charigng poor bastards £9k for 6/8 lectures a week in history being taught by a psot grad ,then they defintiely shuldnt be teaching people buisness studies

jut checking covs annuals and it backs up tyou point gaz

https://www.coventry.ac.uk/the-university/financial-information/finance/

from wiki cov is using 10% of its income on agents fees.first year that doesnt pay a return could get interesting

Schools teach pupils a wide range of different subjects over 30 hours per week over 39 weeks of the year at a cost of about £7000 an annum per pupil. It is therefore difficult to understand why it costs £9250 to provide 15-25 hours tuition to University undergraduate students sometime over no more than 24 weeks of the year.

 

Edited May 18 by Virgil Caine

[Virgil Caine]

One can’t help noticing that all the articles on tuition fees go on about the fact they have reduced in real terms by 50% since 2012. They conveniently forget that fees were just £1000 in 1998 before tripling to £3000 in 2004 and then going up by a similar amount in 2012 to £9000. If that £3000 figure from 2004 was inflation adjusted using the BOE calculator it would be worth £5284 today so Universities are still getting about £4000 per annum more than they would under the 2004 fees. There were  1,237,660  full time First Degree Students in 2004-2005 according to the HSE 

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-analysis/publications/students-2004-05/introduction

In 2020-21 the figure was 1,883,860 First Degree Students

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/19-01-2023/sb265-higher-education-student-statistics/numbers

So basically a tripling of undergraduate fees has only increased the supply of undergraduates by 50%. That seems a poor return on the money invested regardless of degree subject

[One percent]

3 hours ago, Virgil Caine said:

One can’t help noticing that all the articles on tuition fees go on about the fact they have reduced in real terms by 50% since 2012. They conveniently forget that fees were just £1000 in 1998 before tripling to £3000 in 2004 and then going up by a similar amount in 2012 to £9000. If that £3000 figure from 2004 was inflation adjusted using the BOE calculator it would be worth £5284 today so Universities are still getting about £4000 per annum more than they would under the 2004 fees. There were  1,237,660  full time First Degree Students in 2004-2005 according to the HSE 

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-analysis/publications/students-2004-05/introduction

In 2020-21 the figure was 1,883,860 First Degree Students

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/19-01-2023/sb265-higher-education-student-statistics/numbers

So basically a tripling of undergraduate fees has only increased the supply of undergraduates by 50%. That seems a poor return on the money invested regardless of degree subject

And also that wages in universities were practically frozen from 2008. Dunno where they are now though. 

[SpectrumFX]

1 hour ago, One percent said:

And also that wages in universities were practically frozen from 2008. Dunno where they are now though. 

They're on a standard pay scale across all institutions that's indexed each year. The pay's gone up, but the indexing hasn't matched inflation.

The spinal points on the scale are all the same, but each institution mapped their roles differently when they adopted the system, so there are differences between institutions.

Using Cardiff as an example, their standard Lecturer position currently tops out at £44,263 and the Senior Lecturer at £54,395.

Way back in 2008 when the current system came in those salaries were £33,780 and £41,545 respectively. Had they kept pace with CPI from there, they'd currently be £54,465 and £66,932.

So in real terms a Senior Lecturer is now paid what a Lecturer used to get.

This effect will be the same for all institutions. Although the figures will differ a little for those that mapped the top of their grades to a different spinal point, the relative increase to CPI will be the same.

 

 

 

[One percent]

3 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

They're on a standard pay scale across all institutions that's indexed each year. The pay's gone up, but the indexing hasn't matched inflation.

The spinal points on the scale are all the same, but each institution mapped their roles differently when they adopted the system, so there are differences between institutions.

Using Cardiff as an example, their standard Lecturer position currently tops out at £44,263 and the Senior Lecturer at £54,395.

Way back in 2008 when the current system came in those salaries were £33,780 and £41,545 respectively. Had they kept pace with CPI from there, they'd currently be £54,465 and £66,932.

So in real terms a Senior Lecturer is now paid what a Lecturer used to get.

This effect will be the same for all institutions. Although the figures will differ a little for those that mapped the top of their grades to a different spinal point, the relative increase to CPI will be the same.

 

 

 

Ta. I do know that year on year from 2008 it was two percent at best.  Wages just stood still.  

[sancho panza]

Guardian join the 'no sh1t sherlock' theme on Unis

The cries for bail outs/logn term funding models are beginning.Can't have lecturers getting laid off even if the courses are crap and not wroth £50k in debt for a inimum wage job.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/may/16/universities-in-england-risk-closure-with-40-per-cent-facing-budget-deficits-report-office-for-students

Universities in England risk closure with 40% facing budget deficits, says report

Analysis by Office for Students says increasing number will need to make significant changes to their funding model

An increasing number of universities in England face “a material risk of closure” unless they dramatically cut costs or merge over the next few years, according to the higher education regulator’s annual health check.

The report by the Office for Students (OfS) paints a bleak picture of universities overreliant on international students to plug the gaps left by the declining income from domestic student fees, with the OfS warning that 40% of England’s universities are expected to run budget deficits this year.

 

Lapworth said the report was “a signal” for universities to question their assumptions about future student recruitment at home and abroad, saying: “The numbers reported to us for the sector as a whole are just not credible.”

While the OfS said it had no concerns about the “short-term viability” of most providers, its modelling for a “reasonable worst-case scenario”, involving significant reductions in international student numbers without cost-cutting, forecast that four out of five institutions would be in the red by 2027.

Alex Bols of the GuildHE group, representing 60 universities and colleges, said: “As the financial health of the higher education sector becomes ever more challenging the need for a long-term funding solution becomes ever more urgent.

 

“The increasing costs facing universities, decreasing real-terms tuition fee income and risks to other income streams mean that the likelihood of institutional closure or merger increase.”

The government’s recent restrictions to its student visa regime – such as barring many international students from including family members on their visas – have already seen a significant fall in international applications, with one survey reporting a 27% drop in applications for taught postgraduate courses for next year.

James Cleverly, the home secretary, is still considering restrictions to the graduate visa route, which allows international students to stay and work in the UK for two to three years after completing their studies, which universities say is vital to compete with rivals such as the US and Australia that have similar offers.

The shrinking in applications and the continued freeze on domestic undergraduate tuition fees, which have been set at £9,250 since 2017 and are frozen until 2025-26, has set off a wave of course closures and redundancies.

Figures compiled by the University and College Union (UCU) show more than 50 universities and colleges are already making redundancies and other cuts.

Jo Grady, the UCU general secretary, said: “The funding model for higher education is broken and needs radical change to put the sector on a firm financial footing. Unfortunately, the Tories seem intent on making the situation worse through constant attacks on migrant students and workers.”

[dnb24]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmjgjw3pno.amp

2000 keele employees offered redundancy

hattip @King Penda

[Loki]

On 22/05/2024 at 12:09, sancho panza said:

its modelling for a “reasonable worst-case scenario”

Academic modelling, good luck with that

[leonardratso]

1 hour ago, Loki said:

Academic modelling, good luck with that

syntax error at line 12

[Don Coglione]

On 17/05/2024 at 15:17, One percent said:

I can’t see this. Yes for subjects that need expensive equipment and a lot of space but most university courses are those that are book based with no equipment necessary, other than a classroom.   Then, they tend to be taught with really, really cheap labour, grad students and the like.  
 

the real problem is the number of people in universities that you look at and think, “what exactly is it that you do?”  There is a lot of fat to be cut. A lot.  

Hairdressing?

[Don Coglione]

On 17/05/2024 at 15:17, One percent said:

I can’t see this. Yes for subjects that need expensive equipment and a lot of space but most university courses are those that are book based with no equipment necessary, other than a classroom.   Then, they tend to be taught with really, really cheap labour, grad students and the like.  
 

the real problem is the number of people in universities that you look at and think, “what exactly is it that you do?”  There is a lot of fat to be cut. A lot.  

For the avoidance of doubt (as no-one likes a hypocrite on this forum), can you confirm your (former) position in HE, your reason for no longer being employed and the pension you receive for so being?

Thought not.

[One percent]

8 minutes ago, Don Coglione said:

For the avoidance of doubt (as no-one likes a hypocrite on this forum), can you confirm your (former) position in HE, your reason for no longer being employed and the pension you receive for so being?

Thought not.

Intrusive much.  Care to tell us exactly who you are first. 

[Don Coglione]

I am not asking for specifics.

From a distance, it looks like your ex-husband made a lucky escape...

[sancho panza]

6 hours ago, Don Coglione said:

I am not asking for specifics.

From a distance, it looks like your ex-husband made a lucky escape...

with all due respect thats quite a personal comment.

I'm not the thought police.but Im here to have a genuine debate with people.I jsut dont think it helps when you make a comment as personal as that.

It jsut looks like you're bringing the posion from anotehr thread into this one.

More broadly,if you're making comments like the above,then you do you need to wonder if you haven't already lost the debate(and I say that as someone who's got some form in challenging people)

 

[UmBongo]

Government now seriously cracking down on student visas? 

BBC link (sorry) : 40% drop in overseas students at University of East Anglia (Norwich)

Overseas students pay on average £22,000 a year. UK undergraduate fees kept at £9,250 a year. Would be £14,000 a year if this was in line with inflation. 

Edited May 29 by UmBongo

[HousePriceMania]

4 hours ago, UmBongo said:

Government now seriously cracking down on student visas till after the election?