Community Land Trust and ‘cheaper’ housing….

[JoeDavola]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65271214
 

I had been wondering for years if this was a thing - a non profit collective of folk chipping in together to build housing outside of the mainstream speculative housing market.

However it’s slightly disappointing to see the results - middle aged bloke paying over 200k for a one bed slave box. Still probably won’t hand it paid off till he’s 60.

Are these so expensive because that’s how much it costs to build stuff these days?

Nevertheless there’s interesting ideas here albeit ones that are open to abuse and still a much worse deal than council housing is/was.

Edited May 1, 2023 by JoeDavola

[Yadda yadda yadda]

2 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65271214
 

I had been wondering for years if this was a thing - a non profit collective of folk chipping in together to build housing outside of the mainstream speculative housing market.

However it’s slightly disappointing to see the results - middle aged bloke paying over 200k for a one bed slave box. Still probably won’t hand it paid off till he’s 60.

Are these so expensive because that’s how much it costs to build stuff these days?

Look at it the other way. Wages aren't high enough. Or, more simply, the country is poorer. Eventually housing costs will come down relative to wages but only because food, fuel and clothing wil permanently take up a higher proportion of income. Inflation isn't a blip, it is a realigning of our position in the world.

[JoeDavola]

1 minute ago, Yadda yadda yadda said:

Look at it the other way. Wages aren't high enough. Or, more simply, the country is poorer. Eventually housing costs will come down relative to wages but only because food, fuel and clothing wil permanently take up a higher proportion of income. Inflation isn't a blip, it is a realigning of our position in the world.

Agreed but you wonder if this is a realigning of our position in the world then the raw materials to build a house will keep going up and up and will put a floor on prices?

[Yadda yadda yadda]

13 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65271214
 

I had been wondering for years if this was a thing - a non profit collective of folk chipping in together to build housing outside of the mainstream speculative housing market.

However it’s slightly disappointing to see the results - middle aged bloke paying over 200k for a one bed slave box. Still probably won’t hand it paid off till he’s 60.

Are these so expensive because that’s how much it costs to build stuff these days?

I've read the article now so comments directly on that.

1. What an archetypal loser the bloke looks like.

2. £215k in Lewisham borough is cheap. I wouldn't want to live in that block though.

3. Housing people on the basis of arbitrary criteria is easily corruptible. Especially in corrupt Lewisham.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Yadda yadda yadda

[cedric]

6 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65271214
 

I had been wondering for years if this was a thing - a non profit collective of folk chipping in together to build housing outside of the mainstream speculative housing market.

However it’s slightly disappointing to see the results - middle aged bloke paying over 200k for a one bed slave box. Still probably won’t hand it paid off till he’s 60.

Are these so expensive because that’s how much it costs to build stuff these days?

Nevertheless there’s interesting ideas here albeit ones that are open to abuse and still a much worse deal than council housing is/was.

There's an economy of scale issue where the construction materials will be half (?) the price to the major house building companies spending hundreds of millions; they probably reuse plans and drawings, too, and all the niggles will have been ironed out. When building in small volumes, the cost will be more like that of a bespoke house.

[JoeDavola]

Just now, Yadda yadda yadda said:

I've read the article now so comment directly on that.

1. What an archetypal loser the bloke looks like.

2. £215k in Lewisham borough is cheap. I wouldn't want to live in that block though.

3. Housing people on the basis of arbitrary criteria is easily corruptible. Especially in corrupt Lewisham.

Yes I read the whole article after posting this and saw that being involved in a local charity or church was getting you housing points….Um why? Will be totally corrupt and about ‘who you know’.

[Yadda yadda yadda]

The residents are completely doxxed on this website. Don't suppose that matters though.

It is actually an ok area in Sydenham rather than Lewisham town centre - a proper shithole.

https://www.londonclt.org/citizens-house

Edit prices are probably 35% off considering location and being on a small council estate.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Yadda yadda yadda

[Yadda yadda yadda]

17 minutes ago, cedric said:

There's an economy of scale issue where the construction materials will be half (?) the price to the major house building companies spending hundreds of millions; they probably reuse plans and drawings, too, and all the niggles will have been ironed out. When building in small volumes, the cost will be more like that of a bespoke house.

Having found the location it is probably a complicated build. There will still be people skimming off the top. Looks like they've closed a road too, by building on top of it (actually might have built an access road that goes under part of the block). Backs onto and overlooks a primary school too.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Yadda yadda yadda

[Snake Plissken]

I was a member of a group in London for a while set up to find area to do a similar scheme. The govt had said that land should be made available and offered to small local groups. However, the owners say TFL, when selling also had a commitment to the tax payer to get the highest amount possible. The local groups basically ended up competing with all the property developers. and the only land they could afford would be land that for whatever reason couldn't take a big block of flats. 

Then you would get help from councils etc only for certain groups like in that article

"Other qualifying criteria include being able to get a mortgage, having a child in a local school and showing a demonstrable housing need. "

Once again for a childless person or couple the scheme wasn't available. I gave up on that group after a while as it was clear I wouldn't have ended up with anything I wanted. The idea of getting a bit of a discount for a 1 bed flat didn't appeal. If you were in the group they were targetting, say a family, then you might have got a good result, but then you were probably high up the councils social housing priority anyway and became a way for the council of offloading some of that list. There is no one out there helping you for nothing!

[Frank Hovis]

16 minutes ago, Snake Plissken said:

However, the owners say TFL, when selling also had a commitment to the tax payer to get the highest amount possible.

 

Councils will usually bend or break that rule in order to have some affordable builidng happen in their area.  Sometimes it's even notional amounts such as £1 if all the housing will be affordable rented / shared ownership rather than just a percentage of it.

Other bodies, such as the NHS, TFL, MoD are however as you say.  They make all the right noises about affordable housing on their spare land but when it comes to it they demand a price that makes affordable housing entirely uneconomic.

[One percent]

37 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

 

Councils will usually bend or break that rule in order to have some affordable builidng happen in their area.  Sometimes it's even notional amounts such as £1 if all the housing will be affordable rented / shared ownership rather than just a percentage of it.

Other bodies, such as the NHS, TFL, MoD are however as you say.  They make all the right noises about affordable housing on their spare land but when it comes to it they demand a price that makes affordable housing entirely uneconomic.

Our local authority takes bribes for not building affordable homes from house builders round here. Many of the new estates, they have managed to get round the requirement by giving the LA a qurter of a million (i think it was) bung.  Which will build nowt. 

[Frank Hovis]

3 minutes ago, One percent said:

Our local authority takes bribes for not building affordable homes from house builders round here. Many of the new estates, they have managed to get round the requirement by giving the LA a qurter of a million (i think it was) bung.  Which will build nowt. 

 

By "bung" and "bribe" you of course mean a s106 payment (though the name may have changed) whereby instead of losing £250k by building some affordable housing they give the council that £250k for infrastructure / community projects.  This is absolutely legal.

IME the council then tends to just sit on that money unless something comes up which they would otherwise have had to pay for and the the s106 money pays it for them.

[One percent]

Just now, Frank Hovis said:

 

By "bung" and "bribe" you of course mean a s106 payment (though the name may have changed) whereby instead of losing £250k by building some affordable housing they give the council that £250k for infrastructure / community projects.  This is absolutely legal.

IME the council then tends to just sit on that money unless something comes up which they would otherwise have had to pay for and the the s106 money pays it for them.

I think that’s the one.  It might be legal but morally, when the vast majority of these properties are sold as second homes and fhls, it’s just wrong.  

[Frank Hovis]

2 minutes ago, One percent said:

I think that’s the one.  It might be legal but morally, when the vast majority of these properties are sold as second homes and fhls, it’s just wrong.  

 

I agree.

Especially as it is rarely spent upon anything actually useful.

[Panther]

1 hour ago, cedric said:

There's an economy of scale issue where the construction materials will be half (?) the price to the major house building companies spending hundreds of millions; they probably reuse plans and drawings, too, and all the niggles will have been ironed out. When building in small volumes, the cost will be more like that of a bespoke house.

I worked in construction and it was exactly like that. To a QS building an estate of houses is back of a fag packet level.

[sarahbell]

Just remember you're competing all the time with people who are using your taxes to fund the fight.

[spunko]

As a general rule housebuilders look at 40% profit margins on each house. Most people think it's 20% because that's what they see on Homes Under the Hammer but the housebuilders have much higher margins. And most of that cost is in the land.

The actual cost to re-build a house is given to you when you insure. In my case, for a 3 bed Tudor cottage, they estimate it at about £220k.

So the cost for a 4-bed slavebox by Redrow must surely be about, what, £150k? Obviously there's the land cost to take into account, so maybe add another £100k on top oop north and more down south. Anyway at 40% profit they could sell each slavebox for £350k and be quids in.

To answer the OP's question I'd say ballpark figure maybe double the cost of a Redrow slavebox to self-build (the not-for-profit build cost). Or  in other words I seriously doubt with the extortionate cost of materials at the moment that anyone will be able to self-build for less than £250k.

Edited May 1, 2023 by spunko

[maynardgravy]

4 hours ago, Yadda yadda yadda said:

Look at it the other way. Wages aren't high enough. Or, more simply, the country is poorer. Eventually housing costs will come down relative to wages but only because food, fuel and clothing wil permanently take up a higher proportion of income. Inflation isn't a blip, it is a realigning of our position in the world.

Maybe people will have to go back to putting patches on clothes like when I were a kid.

Cars are going to be priced out for a lot of plebs in the near future unless we start stringing globalist scum up.

Food waste will become less too and foreign holidays fewer if any. 

Not saying house prices won't come down, but there's plenty of wiggle room for our masters, should they wish to force us down the route of paying larger chunks of our wealth into a pile of bricks. 

[spygirl]

8 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65271214
 

I had been wondering for years if this was a thing - a non profit collective of folk chipping in together to build housing outside of the mainstream speculative housing market.

However it’s slightly disappointing to see the results - middle aged bloke paying over 200k for a one bed slave box. Still probably won’t hand it paid off till he’s 60.

Are these so expensive because that’s how much it costs to build stuff these days?

Nevertheless there’s interesting ideas here albeit ones that are open to abuse and still a much worse deal than council housing is/was.

200k 1 br flat.

What if he wants to have kids?

Oh ....

An "asset lock" means the flats can only be sold on the same terms on which they were bought.

"I didn't have another option," says Alex. "The existing model of investing in a home doesn't work for me.

"But I think it's better that I have a home that has a stable value. I now have something to start from."

No you wont, you mong.

Your other option was to leave Londin ffs. You're a CS. No kids. No reason to be there.

 

The open market leaves property prices open to speculation, and can result in foreign buyers investing in flats which then lie empty.

..

Christian Codjoe, 30, is due to move into his flat in a few weeks.

He currently lives with his parents. He had saved for a deposit but feared he would have to move to Croydon or Kent to buy a home.

"Interest rates are crazy right now, but even with high mortgage payments the CLT flats are 100% worth it and get me on the housing ladder," he says.

That's  Ghanian name.

And another brainless mong.

 

 

[spygirl]

4 hours ago, spunko said:

As a general rule housebuilders look at 40% profit margins on each house. Most people think it's 20% because that's what they see on Homes Under the Hammer but the housebuilders have much higher margins. And most of that cost is in the land.

The actual cost to re-build a house is given to you when you insure. In my case, for a 3 bed Tudor cottage, they estimate it at about £220k.

So the cost for a 4-bed slavebox by Redrow must surely be about, what, £150k? Obviously there's the land cost to take into account, so maybe add another £100k on top oop north and more down south. Anyway at 40% profit they could sell each slavebox for £350k and be quids in.

To answer the OP's question I'd say ballpark figure maybe double the cost of a Redrow slavebox to self-build (the not-for-profit build cost). Or  in other words I seriously doubt with the extortionate cost of materials at the moment that anyone will be able to self-build for less than £250k.

That  includes land at market price.

Council them them the land cheap or free.

Build cost for each of these  flats would be sub 50kish.

[Sugarlips]

8 hours ago, Yadda yadda yadda said:

Look at it the other way. Wages aren't high enough. Or, more simply, the country is poorer. Eventually housing costs will come down relative to wages but only because food, fuel and clothing wil permanently take up a higher proportion of income. Inflation isn't a blip, it is a realigning of our position in the world.

This makes sense but until credit pipes are turned down/off significantly, we can’t square the circle.

[spunko]

Is it just me or is the thought of 'self building' completely redundant when you choose to do it here in pisshole London:

The worst thing is those flats that overlook your balcony will be council houses and in that part of the world that means all sorts of detritus. Fucking hell, I realise how lucky I am whenever I go to S London that I don't live there.

[JoeDavola]

15 hours ago, spunko said:

Is it just me or is the thought of 'self building' completely redundant when you choose to do it here in pisshole London:

The worst thing is those flats that overlook your balcony will be council houses and in that part of the world that means all sorts of detritus. Fucking hell, I realise how lucky I am whenever I go to S London that I don't live there.

Yep - it's a shithole.

I found myself in Putney last year, went there while I was in London to see the house of a musician I've been a fan of for a long time who has a net worth of about £130 million according to google.

Anyways, the street with the millionaire houses was OK, but the area around it just seemed a bit of a shithole to me. Shitty block of flats at the end of the street of millionaire houses. Nothing special. Certainly not worth living a life of poverty to get to be a part of.

We can mock the poor sod below but I see a man there who has been somewhat beaten down by 20 years of adult life in HMO's, flat shares, and maybe if he's really lucky a shitty studio flat/bedsit. It's no life. Every worker in this country deserves better than that.

You think you'd hit a certain age, maybe 30, and realize the London 'dream' isn't all it's cut out to be and get out.

Edited May 2, 2023 by JoeDavola

[spunko]

8 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

Yep - it's a shithole.

I found myself in Putney last year, went there while I was in London to see the house of a musician I've been a fan of for a long time who has a net worth of about £130 million according to google.

Anyways, the street with the millionaire houses was OK, but the area around it just seemed a bit of a shithole to me. Shitty block of flats at the end of the street of millionaire houses. Nothing special. Certainly not worth living a life of poverty to get to be a part of.

We can mock the poor sod below but I see a man there who has been somewhat beaten down by 20 years of adult life in HMO's, flat shares, and maybe if he's really lucky a shitty studio flat/bedsit. It's no life.

You think you'd hit a certain age, maybe 30, and realize the London 'dream' isn't all it's cut out to be and get out.

The thing is, you can tell just by looking at him that he won't ever change. He has convinced himself that London is "the" place to be, where he will always live and how wonderful it is to live in a melting pot, how he can get to the West End in 15 minutes, blah de blah.

These people are two a penny and they all look like him. The weirdest thing about them is that they're rarely ever born in London, they are nearly always northern and have adopted London as their new home, it's like a kind of cult.

I fucking hate London. Don't know if I've said . Whenever I get to Sevenoaks on the train I breathe a sigh of relief knowing that it's over.

[Curious Pattern]

14 minutes ago, spunko said:

I fucking hate London. Don't know if I've said .

The worst part about hating London is watching it spread into areas you actually care about. I was having a good bank holiday until I had to go back into a local town that's now filling up with London overspill and spent the rest of the day depressed.