The Big Short Time and Furnished Holiday Let thread ...

[One percent]

1 minute ago, With a crooked smile said:

They will continue to. They will just form Ltd companies and do it that way.

Some will but a lot are owned singly. I say owned, they are mortgaged.  
 

to add to that these rules are only bringing tax in line with btl. If it were so easy, why did a lot op people here decide to move from btl to fhl, why not just set up a limited company at that point?   

[Bobthebuilder]

1 minute ago, One percent said:

Some will but a lot are owned singly. I say owned, they are mortgaged.  
 

to add to that these rules are only bringing tax in line with btl. If it were so easy, why did a lot op people here decide to move from btl to fhl, why not just set up a limited company at that point?   

I have met quite a few FHL owners over the years, they tend to be clueless about business, thinking they can basically run a hotel but without putting any work in. They never realise premier inn have beaten them hands down on the logistics.

In other words, they tend to be wankers.

[One percent]

1 minute ago, Bobthebuilder said:

I have met quite a few FHL owners over the years, they tend to be clueless about business, thinking they can basically run a hotel but without putting any work in. They never realise premier inn have beaten them hands down on the logistics.

In other words, they tend to be wankers.

The best one i know is a pair of wessie scratters running a b&b.  They decided to ditch the breakfast bit as being too much like hard work.  How exactly is that different to a flop house?   

[With a crooked smile]

1 minute ago, One percent said:

Some will but a lot are owned singly. I say owned, they are mortgaged.  
 

to add to that these rules are only bringing tax in line with btl. If it were so easy, why did a lot op people here decide to move from btl to fhl, why not just set up a limited company at that point?   

Many did turn to ltds. My neighbour did straight away. Do you think it's easy to get a rental property at the moment. Who holds the balance of power the landlord or the tenant?

To answer your question more specifically. Airbnb opened a lot of peoples eyes that there was a lot more money in short term letting (not necessarily to tourists to contractors etc as well) than standard resi letting. 

To give you an example I was renting an apartment in Keswick to a couple who were working locally for £1100 a month, when they moved on i then rented it to another couple they knew. When they decided to move on I decided to holiday let it.

Looking at forward bookings a performance in Feb I expect it to do 22-25k a year.

That's why people have been getting out of resi lettings.

[With a crooked smile]

4 minutes ago, Bobthebuilder said:

They never realise premier inn have beaten them hands down on the logistics.

Premier Inn still havent realised they need to pay above minimum wage in Keswick. Views on TripAdvisor look pretty sketchy last time I looked.

[Wight Flight]

13 minutes ago, With a crooked smile said:

They will continue to. They will just form Ltd companies and do it that way.

Round here a lot of the FHL are second homes let out when the owner isn't using it.

Going Ltd will give them a BIK problem.

[With a crooked smile]

3 minutes ago, One percent said:

The best one i know is a pair of wessie scratters running a b&b

I think while not common that's certainly becoming more prevalent. 

A bit like some on here say people are tied to the property all day lots of the smaller bnbs do self checkin and have a ring door bell these days. We dont because we have staff.

[With a crooked smile]

1 minute ago, Wight Flight said:

Round here a lot of the FHL are second homes let out when the owner isn't using it.

They dont sound like they'll have big mortgages then. A bit like the people with second homes in the Channel Islands 

[Bobthebuilder]

8 minutes ago, With a crooked smile said:

Premier Inn still havent realised they need to pay above minimum wage in Keswick. Views on TripAdvisor look pretty sketchy last time I looked.

2023 total revenues of £2.5 billion says "who gives a fuck about TripAdvisor".

[Wight Flight]

6 minutes ago, With a crooked smile said:

They dont sound like they'll have big mortgages then. A bit like the people with second homes in the Channel Islands 

Why not?

A £200k mortgage is only going to cost them £12k a year. You just quoted that you can book £25k in income so plenty of headroom.

[With a crooked smile]

Just now, Bobthebuilder said:

2023 total revenues of £2.5 billion says "who gives a fuck about TripAdvisor".

Probably very true! They are an absolute powerhouse. I personally dont worry about them. They are fairly local to me but not really competing for my target customers.

They will get flooded one day to as the site they are on has always flooded but I guess they built that I to their projections anyway.

[Bobthebuilder]

4 minutes ago, With a crooked smile said:

Probably very true! They are an absolute powerhouse. I personally dont worry about them. They are fairly local to me but not really competing for my target customers.

They will get flooded one day to as the site they are on has always flooded but I guess they built that I to their projections anyway.

As you know sir I am not having a dig at you personally. The last FHL owner I met was saying "why should I change the bed sheets and towels everyday when they are only paying £80 a night?", I replied, premier inn can do it for £40 with a full English thrown in, welcome to the world of hospitality you stupid twat.

[sancho panza]

3 hours ago, spygirl said:

Repost, to get the some of the tax advances listed.

The issue is that the flood of FHL have had an easy time, buying as a year or two before Coof (2020).
HMRC took the glove off on letting days *AND* handed them 10k.

The problem is - and I see this all the time - is if you fail to meet the letting hurdle then you are in shit as the tax relfief needs paying back.

One thing I see al the timer is a place being bought then up for sale 2 years alter as theyve failed to meet the hurdle.

Onesies favourite - and I was talking to my mum, unprompted by me, about this last night.

https://www.cottages.com/cottages/grande-view-uk38330

 

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/details/england-12240631?s=3dd7c13cde5785d2f9b9f5df862393cbb0d5a1975eb7cd6c1241a39734485894#/

Date sold	Percentage change from last sold price	Sold price	Property	Tenure
30 Nov 2020		£710,000	Detached	Freehold

 

 

 

 

 

What s the lettings hurdle?

[One percent]

1 minute ago, sancho panza said:

What s the lettings hurdle?

Covering their costs I would think.  

[Democorruptcy]

20 minutes ago, With a crooked smile said:

Many did turn to ltds. My neighbour did straight away. Do you think it's easy to get a rental property at the moment. Who holds the balance of power the landlord or the tenant?

To answer your question more specifically. Airbnb opened a lot of peoples eyes that there was a lot more money in short term letting (not necessarily to tourists to contractors etc as well) than standard resi letting. 

To give you an example I was renting an apartment in Keswick to a couple who were working locally for £1100 a month, when they moved on i then rented it to another couple they knew. When they decided to move on I decided to holiday let it.

Looking at forward bookings a performance in Feb I expect it to do 22-25k a year.

That's why people have been getting out of resi lettings.

I sent an email recently to my housing contact at the Welsh gov and mentioned AirBnB. I said when it's someone letting a room in their own house that's good because it brings tourists without displacing a tax paying resident. However when 'superhosts' buy a portfolio of properties to let as a whole, it's bad because it displaces residents. I suggested a new sliding scale of tax, the more holiday lets people own, then the higher rate of tax they pay.

Also in the past I've suggested a higher rate of CGT when holiday lets and second homes are sold. They had told me they couldn't do it because CGT is a matter reserved for London. I suggested they could do a new 'Holiday Home Profit Share', that works in a similar way to CGT on holiday lets/second homes. A profit 'share' paid by the vendors to taxpayers, used to help fund the building of more houses. The Welsh have already done their own Tourist Tax, so why not?

[With a crooked smile]

3 minutes ago, Bobthebuilder said:

As you know sir I am not having a dig at you personally. The last FHL owner I met was saying "why should I change the bed sheets and towels everyday when they are only paying £80 a night?", I replied, premier inn can do it for £40 with a full English thrown in, welcome to the world of hospitality you stupid twat.

Yep, theres a lot of people buying decent sized Victorian bnbs in Keswick.  Typically theyve gone into the loft and added 2 owners rooms and possibly divided a large room into 2. They end up with a 7 bedroom property that they are trying to holiday let to basically large groups- its bigger than the average family needs.

These are the ones that are going to struggle as there are now too many large properties and too few large groups for the local market.

I've watched these go from being 1 week let's to doing long weekends and even two night stays now.

I get to meet a lot of holiday home owners through work and socially through various groups. The smaller properties aimed a a couple walking or a standard sized families are the ones coining it in with lots of bookings and less change overs.

Interestingly talking to a neighbour two properties on my street have gone from bnb to residential in the last 12 months. Which makes at least 3 on our street as I was one of the first in Keswick to purchase a bnb and get planning permission to change from being a business back to residential. 

The bnbs I'm talking about trade up to or under the vat threshold and dont have staff.

 

[With a crooked smile]

11 minutes ago, Democorruptcy said:

Also in the past I've suggested a higher rate of CGT when holiday lets and second homes are sold. They had told me they couldn't do it because CGT is a matter reserved for London. I suggested they could do a new 'Holiday Home Profit Share', that works in a similar way to CGT on holiday lets/second homes. A profit 'share' paid by the vendors to taxpayers, used to help fund the building of more houses. The Welsh have already done their own Tourist Tax, so why not?

There are some very good things that come in with tourists I'm travelling around The Lakes a lot and find the provision of public toilets charging a minimal fee good. I dont want to use customers toilets. Without tourists these would probably be closed as they are elsewhere. 

I've never had an objection to £1 a night tourist tax being added to bills. This is very common in Europe (and elsewhere they do it in parts of Argentina). My only stipulation would be I want it spent locally and not on diversity officers either tourist infrastructure or stuff for the kids like a new swimming pool or updated sports facilities. 

Edited March 6 by With a crooked smile
Sp

[Democorruptcy]

2 minutes ago, With a crooked smile said:

There are some very good things that come in with tourists I'm travelling around The Lakes a lot and find the provision of public toilets charging a minimal fee good. I dont want to use customers toilets. Without tourists these would probably be closed as they are elsewhere. 

I've never had an objection to £1 a night tourist tax being added to bills. This is very common in Europe (and elsewhere they do it in parts of Argentina). My only stipulation would be I want it spent locally and not on diversity officers either tourist infrastructure or stuff for the kids like a new swimming pool or updated sports facilities. 

That doesn't seem like joined up thinking. You are a resident and use the toilet but it's only open because of tourists? Due to there now being more holiday lets, there are less residents there. If there were more residents there would be even more demand for the toilets to stay open. There is no demand for toilets, from the empty holiday lets.

[spygirl]

19 minutes ago, sancho panza said:

What s the lettings hurdle?

Getting the days let in a year.

It needs to be let 105d/y. Fail 210 over 2 years and it fails as FHL.

That's harder than it looks.

If you dip the money then you'll cockspur your income numbers, which tge bank use to make sure you've got the agreed yield/income.

If you raise the charge, to make up yield, then you risk voids.

It's a very narrow, dangerous  path to walk. 

[One percent]

1 hour ago, Democorruptcy said:

Is it because they have put Whitby on the map?

Someone sent me this link yesterday about ship building in Whitby. Second largest port for it at one point. An interesting read. 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_and_boat_building_in_Whitby
 

[One percent]

7 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Getting the days let in a year.

It needs to be let 105d/y. Fail 210 over 2 years and it fails as FHL.

That's harder than it looks.

If you dip the money then you'll cockspur your income numbers, which tge bank use to make sure you've got the agreed yield/income.

If you raise the charge, to make up yield, then you risk voids.

It's a very narrow, dangerous  path to walk. 

It’s only 15 weeks, it sounds doable. 

[Bobthebuilder]

26 minutes ago, With a crooked smile said:

Yep, theres a lot of people buying decent sized Victorian bnbs in Keswick.  Typically theyve gone into the loft and added 2 owners rooms and possibly divided a large room into 2. They end up with a 7 bedroom property that they are trying to holiday let to basically large groups- its bigger than the average family needs.

These are the ones that are going to struggle as there are now too many large properties and too few large groups for the local market.

I've watched these go from being 1 week let's to doing long weekends and even two night stays now.

I get to meet a lot of holiday home owners through work and socially through various groups. The smaller properties aimed a a couple walking or a standard sized families are the ones coining it in with lots of bookings and less change overs.

Interestingly talking to a neighbour two properties on my street have gone from bnb to residential in the last 12 months. Which makes at least 3 on our street as I was one of the first in Keswick to purchase a bnb and get planning permission to change from being a business back to residential. 

The bnbs I'm talking about trade up to or under the vat threshold and dont have staff.

 

As usual with your posts I am referring to the whole industry in the UK, not just fucking Penrith.

[With a crooked smile]

13 minutes ago, Democorruptcy said:

That doesn't seem like joined up thinking. You are a resident and use the toilet but it's only open because of tourists? Due to there now being more holiday lets, there are less residents there. If there were more residents there would be even more demand for the toilets to stay open. There is no demand for toilets, from the empty holiday lets.

Most places seem to have got rid of public toilets in the uk tourists areas accepted.

And I didn't say holiday let's were empty. I pointed out that one area was struggling( very large holiday let's for multiple people) and that another area was booming (more couples or standard sized family lets).

[Bobthebuilder]

 

[spygirl]

7 minutes ago, One percent said:

It’s only 15 weeks, it sounds doable. 

It does sound doable. Until it isn't.