Credit deflation and the reflation cycle to come (part 9)

[montecristo]

1 hour ago, Harley said:

FFS, you don't know his situation, etc so pure speculation on your part.

It's all speculation.

[Harley]

12 minutes ago, Pip321 said:

Are we still on with tracker/passive v active investment?

Passive investments have done well and are easy for retail Joe Public….and that might be the case in the future but today, right now I am watching a world madness because it feels like we have inflated assets and whether they pop or are slowly deflated I want to beat the markets during that process because otherwise it feels like it’s going to be very costly. 

If the is thread was called ‘a helpful guide to creating wealth over a lifetime’ then the advice for a 22 year old might be to drip feed into the stock market in a well balanced portfolio over 45 years….retire, enjoy 15 years, get old and die.

Buts it’s not that……this is about it potentially being 1928, the shoe shine boy has just given his stockbroker a share tip and things don’t feel right. The thread is like it’s 1928 and someone is tapping you on the shoulder and offering a bit of a heads up saying ‘wow these good times don’t feel right and then suggesting what might happen in the relatively near future’.

Now often contrarians never feel things are right….but anyone ignoring what’s going on today is a braver man than me. Provoked wars, huge debts, eye watering deficits, unaffordable houses, 700k immigrants last year to fiddle the GDP, only 0.6% of GDP being agriculture against 10% of imputed rents, 50% of people not working, unelected PMs, corrupt politicians……and the media just reporting on misuse of pronouns. 

Daft things about value, bubbles and money…..a tiny $14 bn US company being bought by a Japanese company being reviewed by their government because it presents a risk. US steel if that important surely should be valued at more than $14bn with Microsoft worth $3,000 billion  

This isn’t about where to invest in 20 years time, it isn’t about what has been the best approach over certain periods in the past……. this is suggesting we are at a turning point, things not being right, mainly printing and debt at unprecedented levels. 

After any collapse/slow erosion of wealth….. then I will review the approach. 😉

Lovely.  It's about spending as much, probably more, time on the question rather than the answer.  Doing that has huge benefits.  People rush in and a bunfight ensues as we see here and on other threads.  Some do it by accident and maybe some do it deliberately because winning an argument on some peripheral forum matters to them.  As I said, Mr Market loves to highlight people's frailties.  Mine too so I'm off for another break!

Edited April 19 by Harley

[Funn3r]

10 hours ago, Mandalorian said:

Tea leaves and entrails.

TA is just not scientific.

Anyone like to borrow my astrology book on how to really do things? Just PM me

 

[belfastchild]

This thread has been an education for me.
I used to use TA to rate things. Tits and ass. Im glad Im now enlightened.

[Alifelessbinary]

15 hours ago, Mandalorian said:

But remember.  The overwhelming majority of active traders fail to beat a global tracker over the longer term.  Mostly because the vast majority of stock market returns come from a small number of companies* (typically 1.3% of companies.)  And as an active stockpicker, what are the odds of you having those specific companies consistently in your portfolio?

 

What's your objective?  To make money or to have a mental exercise aiming to beat the market?  This is why I have an 80/20 serious money/fun money allocation.

 

I just sometimes get the idea what you have on this thread is a bit cult like where:

- some people making gloomy predictions about the future (some of whom have arguably been successful as active investors  - but again, compared to a global tracker, how successful?) making out that certain individual companies are likely to be good investments (- who knows?)

- other people who, perhaps, aren't as well off / aren't as sophisticated an investor / don't have a large capital base "tuning in" and then actively trading with money that has a higher chance of doing well when placed in cheap tracker funds or a higher chance of "doing a VOD" than a tracker.

 

Having money in carefully selected pots is fine as long as you have plenty pots containing plenty money. 

This is why I favour trackers.  Your money is automatically diversified across thousands of companies.  Imagine having the bulk of your cash in BATS and VOD over the last 5 years because some bloke on the internet says they are growth shares. 

 

I generally agree with all your points and have a similar setup of passive investment, with a naughty section of actively managed funds to flex my ego. When I account for all the time I spend 

What I like about this thread is the broad range of knowledge that helps people tweak their personal strategies. The shares chat is actually the least useful stuff, as being a professional stuck in London I had no idea that benefits were so rampently abused. This helped me pivot out of bonds and into gold/commodes. Which has probably made/saved me a six figure sum by the time I retire.

No one should use a single source of information to make important financial decisions. I do consider this thread to be a brilliant resource where a broad range of adults can discuss investing themes.

Yes there’s often a focus on certain sectors or themes I don’t necessarily back (sitting out waiting for a BK), but this thread has always been about surviving a the credit cycles not the optimum investing strategy for most people (passive). This thread was miles ahead of anyone predicting rampant inflation and interest rate hikes. 

Everyone’s an adult here and it’s up to them what decisions they want to take. I’ll pipe up if I think people are spreading duff information. 

VOD at this price point looks like a solid divi payer to get through the next period of inflation. I also thought that five years ago! 

[baffledbyzirp]

12 hours ago, Mandalorian said:

This graph is share prices alone.  Colour code changed on here.

The idea that you can't beat the market is nothing new. It has its origins in Francis Galton's wisdom of crowds observations. Possibly you could cite Plato's republic and the notion of democracy. Jack Bogle identified the phenomenon which led him to form Vanguard. Efficient Markets theory resulted in many of the neocon errors of the 80s and 90s. 

The countervailing force is the madness of crowds and mean reversion. Your stated timeframe is 5 years and you compare the S&P 500 with BAT and VOD. Your chosen index is driven by the performance of the MAG 7 which accounts for 30% of the index market cap when I last checked. Furthermore, the gains of the past 5 years are disproportionately attributable to these stocks. If you look a little further into the distance your timeframe would incorporate the GFC (2007-9), the dotcom crash (2000) and the collapse of LTCM (1998). LTCM was run by Harvard professors and Nobel laureates who outperformed the market spectacularly until it became apparent their frame of reference was too narrow.

Your reasoning assumes that pervious patterns dictate future trends. This is assumption has risks attached. Russell called it the problem of induction.

1. Is the UK stock market a complete shit show? Yes. 

2. Has the S&P 500 out performed it over the previous 5 years? Yes.

3. Is the US index overpriced in terms of the PE by comparison to historical norms and the UK? Yes.

4. Are US insiders liquidating equity at an elevated rate since the year end? Yes.

5. Of the 2 markets which has the greatest way to fall? The US.

6. If GBP takes a pounding will stocks with international exposure and income streams represent a compelling proposition? Yes, as per the recent news regarding the considered takeover of BP.

I submit that UK valuations are low compared to the US and that there is a strong case that, if and when the correction occurs, the UK will perform relatively better since we have much less air beneath our feet. I also think that your analysis suffers from base year distortions. Finally the notion that the S&P 500 is diversified is invalid due to the weight of the Mag 7.

Stock pickers get it wrong. It is extremely difficult to beat the market. However, passive investment creates an enormous overhang with everybody on the same side of the boat. At times of fundamental change stock pickers can make a fortune while the rest of the market comforts itself referring to Black Swans. Look at the 12 Bezemer economists who correctly identified the drivers of the GFC and predicted its fallout including, Keen, Roubini, Shiller, Hudson, Godley and the much derided Schiff. When the shit hits the fan it won't be any comfort that your are with the herd.

I am not wrong, I'm just not right yet!

[baffledbyzirp]

Shit, my portfolio went down £3K in the time it took me to write that damn reply! Perhaps @Harleyis on to something. You figure out your strategy and adapt it over time. Everything else is just meaningless politics. In the end someone will be proved correct by the data but at that point we will have long forgotten all this bluster.

[leonardratso]

22 minutes ago, baffledbyzirp said:

Shit, my portfolio went down £3K in the time it took me to write that damn reply! Perhaps @Harleyis on to something. You figure out your strategy and adapt it over time. Everything else is just meaningless politics. In the end someone will be proved correct by the data but at that point we will have long forgotten all this bluster.

was it dividends? £10, left pocket, right pocket, middle pocket etc

Nay looks lie the whole shitshow is in correction+ mode after this mornings misfires, like everything just said shit, go up go up, ah hang on go back go back, tell you what fuckit just got back a lot more.

Bitcoin? halving probably boosting it also in this case.

 

Edited April 19 by leonardratso

[DurhamBorn]

41 minutes ago, baffledbyzirp said:

The idea that you can't beat the market is nothing new. It has its origins in Francis Galton's wisdom of crowds observations. Possibly you could cite Plato's republic and the notion of democracy. Jack Bogle identified the phenomenon which led him to form Vanguard. Efficient Markets theory resulted in many of the neocon errors of the 80s and 90s. 

The countervailing force is the madness of crowds and mean reversion. Your stated timeframe is 5 years and you compare the S&P 500 with BAT and VOD. Your chosen index is driven by the performance of the MAG 7 which accounts for 30% of the index market cap when I last checked. Furthermore, the gains of the past 5 years are disproportionately attributable to these stocks. If you look a little further into the distance your timeframe would incorporate the GFC (2007-9), the dotcom crash (2000) and the collapse of LTCM (1998). LTCM was run by Harvard professors and Nobel laureates who outperformed the market spectacularly until it became apparent their frame of reference was too narrow.

Your reasoning assumes that pervious patterns dictate future trends. This is assumption has risks attached. Russell called it the problem of induction.

1. Is the UK stock market a complete shit show? Yes. 

2. Has the S&P 500 out performed it over the previous 5 years? Yes.

3. Is the US index overpriced in terms of the PE by comparison to historical norms and the UK? Yes.

4. Are US insiders liquidating equity at an elevated rate since the year end? Yes.

5. Of the 2 markets which has the greatest way to fall? The US.

6. If GBP takes a pounding will stocks with international exposure and income streams represent a compelling proposition? Yes, as per the recent news regarding the considered takeover of BP.

I submit that UK valuations are low compared to the US and that there is a strong case that, if and when the correction occurs, the UK will perform relatively better since we have much less air beneath our feet. I also think that your analysis suffers from base year distortions. Finally the notion that the S&P 500 is diversified is invalid due to the weight of the Mag 7.

Stock pickers get it wrong. It is extremely difficult to beat the market. However, passive investment creates an enormous overhang with everybody on the same side of the boat. At times of fundamental change stock pickers can make a fortune while the rest of the market comforts itself referring to Black Swans. Look at the 12 Bezemer economists who correctly identified the drivers of the GFC and predicted its fallout including, Keen, Roubini, Shiller, Hudson, Godley and the much derided Schiff. When the shit hits the fan it won't be any comfort that your are with the herd.

I am not wrong, I'm just not right yet!

The UK market has some incredible bargains in my view,im talking generational bargains.Everything has gone against it the last 20 years.The cycle,the US bubble,crap UK polos,massive move from UK equity to gilts from pensions,retail investing moving into BTL etc.Lots of the companies have also been through investment cycles so pressure on balace sheets.The UK market is losing company after company because they are so under valued.D S Smith my latest to go for 50% more than i paid a few month earlier (and undervalued at the takeover price IMO).Of course we have Labour soon ,but they wont last long,then politics will swing right.Im a contrarian,and im patient,i want the hated areas as long as the cycle should help.

[Alifelessbinary]

7 minutes ago, DurhamBorn said:

The UK market has some incredible bargains in my view,im talking generational bargains.Everything has gone against it the last 20 years.The cycle,the US bubble,crap UK polos,massive move from UK equity to gilts from pensions,retail investing moving into BTL etc.Lots of the companies have also been through investment cycles so pressure on balace sheets.The UK market is losing company after company because they are so under valued.D S Smith my latest to go for 50% more than i paid a few month earlier (and undervalued at the takeover price IMO).Of course we have Labour soon ,but they wont last long,then politics will swing right.Im a contrarian,and im patient,i want the hated areas as long as the cycle should help.

My main concern is that all of the bargains will be snatch before retail investors can really see the true value of the shares. While quick takeover gains are great, foreign ownership or all key companies is a disaster long term.

Unless the politicians start to back the UK market, it’s going to become a basket case. I can’t see Labour trying to help the City even if it does fund the vast majority of socialist projects in the UK. 

 

[ThoughtCriminal]

17 hours ago, Mandalorian said:

But remember.  The overwhelming majority of active traders fail to beat a global tracker over the longer term.  Mostly because the vast majority of stock market returns come from a small number of companies* (typically 1.3% of companies.)  And as an active stockpicker, what are the odds of you having those specific companies consistently in your portfolio?

 

What's your objective?  To make money or to have a mental exercise aiming to beat the market?  This is why I have an 80/20 serious money/fun money allocation.

 

I just sometimes get the idea what you have on this thread is a bit cult like where:

- some people making gloomy predictions about the future (some of whom have arguably been successful as active investors  - but again, compared to a global tracker, how successful?) making out that certain individual companies are likely to be good investments (- who knows?)

- other people who, perhaps, aren't as well off / aren't as sophisticated an investor / don't have a large capital base "tuning in" and then actively trading with money that has a higher chance of doing well when placed in cheap tracker funds or a higher chance of "doing a VOD" than a tracker.

 

Having money in carefully selected pots is fine as long as you have plenty pots containing plenty money. 

This is why I favour trackers.  Your money is automatically diversified across thousands of companies.  Imagine having the bulk of your cash in BATS and VOD over the last 5 years because some bloke on the internet says they are growth shares. 

 

The fact that some on here genuinely think dividends are free extra money like bank interest was the first thing that made me pause for thought**.  They don't actually understand something as basic as that, so are they really in a good position to be making punts on which individual companies are likely to beat the market?  Though ultimately, grown adults can do what they like with their money.  I'm just trying to put across the alternative.

 

* Studies of 'asymmetry' by Hendrik Bessembinder – which looked at global stock market returns between 1990 and 2018 – established that just 1.3 per cent of stocks contributed all of the net gain when compared to the performance of US Treasury bills. https://magazinebailliegifford.com/lessons-from-bessembinder/

** I'm not strictly speaking against dividends as such. I just think they are an irrelevant distraction.  And I certainly don't see them as akin to interest.

And yet, you have STILL not demonstrated that Divis aren't a net gain.

 

[Loki]

13 minutes ago, ThoughtCriminal said:

And yet, you have STILL not demonstrated that Divis aren't a net gain.

 

Even if it's all the same, if you were selling and buying accordingly you'd get trading fees etc every time 

[Axeman123]

11 hours ago, Harley said:

Truth is it's a temptress of a Gordian knot.

The lucky are the ones who avoid the rocks long enough to drop their delusions and give themselves up to the mere probabilistic series of events it is.

You are Hugh hendry, AICMFP

[feed]

More Napier, this time the FT. 

https://www.ft.com/content/9f400538-645f-4c80-b206-0de6c51dc75f?shareType=nongift

China is moving towards full monetary independence
The country needs to inflate away its high debt burden
RUSSELL NAPIER

The world’s second-largest economy is about to move to monetary independence and in so doing it will destroy the current international monetary system.

[baffledbyzirp]

1 hour ago, Alifelessbinary said:

I generally agree with all your points and have a similar setup of passive investment, with a naughty section of actively managed funds to flex my ego. When I account for all the time I spend 

What I like about this thread is the broad range of knowledge that helps people tweak their personal strategies. The shares chat is actually the least useful stuff, as being a professional stuck in London I had no idea that benefits were so rampently abused. This helped me pivot out of bonds and into gold/commodes. Which has probably made/saved me a six figure sum by the time I retire.

No one should use a single source of information to make important financial decisions. I do consider this thread to be a brilliant resource where a broad range of adults can discuss investing themes.

Yes there’s often a focus on certain sectors or themes I don’t necessarily back (sitting out waiting for a BK), but this thread has always been about surviving a the credit cycles not the optimum investing strategy for most people (passive). This thread was miles ahead of anyone predicting rampant inflation and interest rate hikes. 

Everyone’s an adult here and it’s up to them what decisions they want to take. I’ll pipe up if I think people are spreading duff information. 

VOD at this price point looks like a solid divi payer to get through the next period of inflation. I also thought that five years ago! 

Gold commodes? That must be a London thing. I heard the streets were paved with gold but toilets made from precious metal is ridiculous. Talk about north-south divide.

[Mandalorian]

11 hours ago, Harley said:

And I reckon that's 'cause people don't want the brain ache or don't have the required temperament (Mr Market sucks in all types!).  Fine if they're just playing with some play money, else FFS, be professional or hire one.

 

The professionals are no better than the amateurs though....

[CannonFodder]

Regarding returns and TA, there was a book I read, can't remember which book that set out three types of risks/opportunities that make/lose money. It has structured my thinking and helps me.

Alpha risk- how good a company is, managed, whether it makes profit or not. You read company reports when you have time and try to compete with big boys and their data sources, full time experts etc.

Beta risk- rising market lifts all boats, silver, oil, wheat prices doubles or halves, then doesn't matter how good or not company is or what it writes in it's reports, the price will move.

Gamma risk- COVID or sanctions or new invention or tariffs, comes out of nowhere, can't be predicted unless you follow Nancy Pelosi trades. Government interference is a subset of gamma. Tax breaks or tax gouging 

Book said each risk managed differently and has different strategy, gamma is diversification for example 

 

[Mandalorian]

2 hours ago, baffledbyzirp said:

The idea that you can't beat the market is nothing new.

I'm not saying you can't beat the market or the market can't be beaten.  I'm saying its impossible to do it year in, year out for the long term.

 

Quote

The countervailing force is the madness of crowds and mean reversion. Your stated timeframe is 5 years and you compare the S&P 500 with BAT and VOD. Your chosen index is driven by the performance of the MAG 7 which accounts for 30% of the index market cap when I last checked. Furthermore, the gains of the past 5 years are disproportionately attributable to these stocks. If you look a little further into the distance your timeframe would incorporate the GFC (2007-9), the dotcom crash (2000) and the collapse of LTCM (1998). LTCM was run by Harvard professors and Nobel laureates who outperformed the market spectacularly until it became apparent their frame of reference was too narrow.
 

 

Not true.  My stated time frame is much longer than 5 years.  It's just HL's data that I use for the graphs only goes back 5 years.

Going back 100 years, the US stock market returns an average of about 10% p.a.  or 7% inflation adjusted.

https://tradethatswing.com/average-historical-stock-market-returns-for-sp-500-5-year-up-to-150-year-averages/

 

Quote

Your reasoning assumes that pervious patterns dictate future trends. This is assumption has risks attached. Russell called it the problem of induction.

1. Is the UK stock market a complete shit show? Yes. 

2. Has the S&P 500 out performed it over the previous 5 years? Yes.

3. Is the US index overpriced in terms of the PE by comparison to historical norms and the UK? Yes.

4. Are US insiders liquidating equity at an elevated rate since the year end? Yes.

5. Of the 2 markets which has the greatest way to fall? The US.

6. If GBP takes a pounding will stocks with international exposure and income streams represent a compelling proposition? Yes, as per the recent news regarding the considered takeover of BP.
 

I submit that UK valuations are low compared to the US and that there is a strong case that, if and when the correction occurs, the UK will perform relatively better since we have much less air beneath our feet.

So you're predicting specifics of the future now.  Exactly what I'm warning against!

Quote

I also think that your analysis suffers from base year distortions. Finally the notion that the S&P 500 is diversified is invalid due to the weight of the Mag 7.

Fine.  You ignore the other 75% by weight or 493 other companies in the index than if it makes you feel better in saying the S&P 500 is not diversified.

Quote

Stock pickers get it wrong. It is extremely difficult to beat the market. However, passive investment creates an enormous overhang with everybody on the same side of the boat. At times of fundamental change stock pickers can make a fortune while the rest of the market comforts itself referring to Black Swans. Look at the 12 Bezemer economists who correctly identified the drivers of the GFC and predicted its fallout including, Keen, Roubini, Shiller, Hudson, Godley and the much derided Schiff. When the shit hits the fan it won't be any comfort that your are with the herd.

I am not wrong, I'm just not right yet!

Yes.  They CAN, but consistently?  The people you cite there have predicted 137 of the last 2 recessions and bear markets.  Stopped clock syndrome.

Edited April 19 by Mandalorian

[Mandalorian]

1 hour ago, DurhamBorn said:

The UK market has some incredible bargains in my view,im talking generational bargains.Everything has gone against it the last 20 years.The cycle,the US bubble,crap UK polos,massive move from UK equity to gilts from pensions,retail investing moving into BTL etc.Lots of the companies have also been through investment cycles so pressure on balace sheets.The UK market is losing company after company because they are so under valued.D S Smith my latest to go for 50% more than i paid a few month earlier (and undervalued at the takeover price IMO).Of course we have Labour soon ,but they wont last long,then politics will swing right.Im a contrarian,and im patient,i want the hated areas as long as the cycle should help.

Bargains?  Or just cheap rubbish.

Cheap rubbish is still rubbish.

[Mandalorian]

1 hour ago, ThoughtCriminal said:

And yet, you have STILL not demonstrated that Divis aren't a net gain.

 

Dealt with that one.  They are not free money.  They are not extra cash added to the pot like interest.  They are your share of the profit paid out of company assets.

They are a shareholder asset baked into the market cap and share price.  Which is why the share price falls (+/- market movement) on XD day.  Watch share prices of dividend payers on Thursday mornings at market opening time on XD day.

58 minutes ago, Loki said:

Even if it's all the same, if you were selling and buying accordingly you'd get trading fees etc every time 

So don't sell every time you want paying.  Save it up in a lump.  but £5 ain't going to break the bank once a month.

Edited April 19 by Mandalorian

[geordie_lurch]

6 minutes ago, Mandalorian said:

Bargains?  Or just cheap rubbish.

Cheap rubbish is still rubbish.

Why don't you start your own thread @Mandalorian about S&P 500 trackers etc as you seem unable to read the room here and I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of reading your endless diatribe against what this thread is specifically here to discuss and the person who created it 

 

Edited April 19 by geordie_lurch

[Pip321]

1 hour ago, DurhamBorn said:

The UK market has some incredible bargains in my view,im talking generational bargains.Everything has gone against it the last 20 years.The cycle,the US bubble,crap UK polos,massive move from UK equity to gilts from pensions,retail investing moving into BTL etc.Lots of the companies have also been through investment cycles so pressure on balace sheets.The UK market is losing company after company because they are so under valued.D S Smith my latest to go for 50% more than i paid a few month earlier (and undervalued at the takeover price IMO).Of course we have Labour soon ,but they wont last long,then politics will swing right.Im a contrarian,and im patient,i want the hated areas as long as the cycle should help.

I think it’s all about mindset and what you think you are buying. Particularly bargains.

I know a lot of people who absolutely will not invest in shares, it’s all too risky. Then they pile £250k into a hair dressing salon and work 45 hours a week to build a business…..so effectively they have invested in a business albeit one they control. And obviously many of these guys lose everything….

For me, I would rather have a have in a super massive oil giant, commods, finance, retail, tech businesses etc running my business….and all I have to do is make sure I spread the risk, and maybe rock up to the shareholder meeting once a year for an update.  

So for me once we get BK out of the way (whatever that looks like) I am buying a mix of real businesses but rather than tin pot hairdressers I will buy (with spread so maybe funds/efts) into world leading businesses. With a slant directed by the macro thinking at that time. 

But I am not buying ‘investments’ as such but rather I am buying ‘assets’ which I hope will do well…and as you say some good looking prospects out there. 

Then there is the balance between overall wealth assets….25% cash/property/assets and equities. Even that will be blurred with some equities in ‘asset rich’ businesses and some of the physical basket actually in EFTs supported by physical. It’s not a precise plan just yet.

Out of interest, My current trading thinking today…

I about to buy Abdn, I like them and sold them for 180p so have some bias. But I paused….I realised from a trading view point I need to focus, there is no rush….I still may buy but probably at a lower ladder because the day to day moves don’t make too much odds

The only area of FOMO is only Gold and silver….i think when that goes (and even with pull back) it will go. 

Edited April 19 by Pip321

[DoINeedOne]

58 minutes ago, feed said:

More Napier, this time the FT. 

https://www.ft.com/content/9f400538-645f-4c80-b206-0de6c51dc75f?shareType=nongift

China is moving towards full monetary independence
The country needs to inflate away its high debt burden
RUSSELL NAPIER

The world’s second-largest economy is about to move to monetary independence and in so doing it will destroy the current international monetary system.

Incase no-one can get passed the paywall https://archive.is/gu8lt

[montecristo]

12 minutes ago, geordie_lurch said:

Why don't you start your own thread @Mandalorian about S&P 500 trackers etc as you seem unable to read the room here and I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of reading your endless diatribe against what this thread is specifically here to discuss and the person who created it 

 

I would disagree.  Good to have a different point of view.  I would call my self financially illiterate.  I read a lot from Buffett and and his below statement always sticks in my mind.  I followed it and I buy EFT funds.  I look at my portfolio today and it is up 30% - 40%.  

“By periodically investing in an index fund, for example, the know-nothing investor can actually out-perform most investment professionals. Paradoxically, when ‘dumb’ money acknowledges its limitations, it ceases to be dumb.”

[Bobthebuilder]

16 minutes ago, geordie_lurch said:

Why don't you start your own thread @Mandalorian about S&P 500 trackers etc as you seem unable to read the room here and I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of reading your endless diatribe against what this thread is specifically here to discuss and the person who created it 

 

I suggested that a week or so ago, and @Mandalorian has started another thread.