Death Of London

[AWW]

On 13/12/2022 at 13:23, steppensheep said:

Canary Wharf Group has submitted plans for a vast “vertical” life sciences campus, as the owners of the east London district look to break their reliance on financial services as demand for office space falls.

The office vacancy rate in Docklands, which includes Canary Wharf, has risen to about 15 per cent — the highest in London, according to property data company CoStar.

https://archive.is/glXzI

Basing your offices in Canary Wharf is like buying a house on that street that got bombed out during the war and is now full of council flats.  As soon as something becomes available on a nicer street for the same money or less, you're stuffed. The big corporate skyscrapers aside, Canary Wharf only ever took overspill from the City.  It's a pain in the arse to get to, utterly soulless and not as prestigious as a City address.  I've moved jobs before just to get away from CW and into the City.  It's only going to get worse for CW.

[AWW]

On 18/01/2024 at 14:18, spygirl said:

I would hazard that the young people earning money are only in London 1 r 2 days a week.

The banks are currently mandating 3 days a week in the office. It's not strictly enforced anywhere that I know of, but I imagine if you're doing 1 or 2 days a week, someone is going to have a word.

It's not as busy as it used to be, but I think you'd be surprised if you went out drinking mid-week, particularly on a Thursday. A ghost town, it isn't.

[PETR4]

3 hours ago, AWW said:

The banks are currently mandating 3 days a week in the office. It's not strictly enforced anywhere that I know of, but I imagine if you're doing 1 or 2 days a week, someone is going to have a word.

It's not as busy as it used to be, but I think you'd be surprised if you went out drinking mid-week, particularly on a Thursday. A ghost town, it isn't.

Which banks are those?

A mate of mine is working full time remote from Melbourne - Australia, not Derbyshire !

[AWW]

I shan't name individual institutions as some are small enough for me to be effectively doxxing myself. Obviously there are exceptions. I was fully remote for a bank on the other side of the world until earlier this year. Generally though London based banks won't let you work from a different country full time unless they have an offshore entity they can employ you through, due to tax issues.

[wherebee]

1 hour ago, PETR4 said:

Which banks are those?

A mate of mine is working full time remote from Melbourne - Australia, not Derbyshire !

yeah, I doubt very much he's working full time.  More like half time, rest in the pubs and brothels...

[Bear Hug]

16 hours ago, AWW said:

The banks are currently mandating 3 days a week in the office. It's not strictly enforced anywhere that I know of, but I imagine if you're doing 1 or 2 days a week, someone is going to have a word.

It's not as busy as it used to be, but I think you'd be surprised if you went out drinking mid-week, particularly on a Thursday. A ghost town, it isn't.

3 day week is strictly enforced at jp morgan. I don't work there myself. 

[sancho panza]

couple of elephants in the room they're missing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/05/how-nightlife-died-sadiq-khan-london/

How nightlife died in Sadiq Khan’s London

The capital’s night time economy has been hit with an onslaught of problems since Covid

More than 1,000 venues have closed in the capital over the last three years and some of London’s best-known institutions are currently under threat. 

The owner of London’s Heaven nightclub, once frequented by Freddie Mercury and Boy George, has warned that the club risks closure because of soaring rent costs. More than half of the capital’s LGBTQ+ venues shut their doors between 2006 and 2022.

 

 

Like the rest of the country, London’s night time economy has been hit with an onslaught of problems ever since the sector was decimated by pandemic closures. Rising energy costs, rents and a turn against alcohol among Gen Z have all played a part.

An average of two nightclubs closed every week between March 2020 and December 2023 across the UK, according to the Night Time Industries Association (NTIA).

Yet while London’s nightlight decline is far from unique, it has become a political flashpoint because of Sadiq Khan’s promise to revive it.

Many in the industry believe that laying the blame solely at Khan’s feet is unfair. The roots of the crisis run deep. The number of grassroots music venues in London fell by a third between 2007 and 2016, the year Khan was elected.

The first all-night tube services began in 2016. However, Kill believes Londoners are put off actually using the late-night lines because of rising crime rates, with incidents on the tube in particular rocketing last year.

While there are those who work in late night bars, red tape and cost pressures means that closing times are getting earlier and earlier in many cases. When Hackney’s popular late-night pub the Dolphin reopened last year, regulars were disappointed to find that it had significantly reduced hours.

[sancho panza]

On 04/03/2024 at 15:03, AWW said:

Basing your offices in Canary Wharf is like buying a house on that street that got bombed out during the war and is now full of council flats.  As soon as something becomes available on a nicer street for the same money or less, you're stuffed. The big corporate skyscrapers aside, Canary Wharf only ever took overspill from the City.  It's a pain in the arse to get to, utterly soulless and not as prestigious as a City address.  I've moved jobs before just to get away from CW and into the City.  It's only going to get worse for CW.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/04/canary-wharf-must-reinvent-itself-survive/

Banks are bailing out of soulless Canary Wharf – and who can blame them?

Poor Canary Wharf. As a group of bank bosses based in the heart of the City declare that they’re upsizing and moving to bigger offices down the road, they’re quick to stress that Canary Wharf was never a consideration.

Why would anyone want to work there, they argued, while drinking white wine and eating lobster from their top-floor meeting room.

They have a point. Although Canary Wharf completely transformed what was once a wasteland in east London, becoming a symbol of Margaret Thatcher’s free-market revolution and a byword for finance, the high-rise financial district is now looking outdated.

It lacks all the things that London is famous for, the history and culture, and post-pandemic these are increasingly the assets that pull people in.

With fewer suits and less focus on financial services, it could find a way to make itself feel less isolated from the rest of London. Now it takes just 18 minutes to get from Canary Wharf to Paddington, there’s no reason it should feel so separate.  

The high-profile list of big-name exits suggests that a decision has already been made.

 

 

HSBC is ditching its 45-story skyscraper, nicknamed the “tower of doom” by staff, once its lease runs out in 2027.

Magic Circle law firm Clifford Chance plans to head off a year later, following rival law firm Skadden’s decision in 2021 to swap Canary Wharf for London’s historic Square Mile.

Ratings agency Moody’s is also considering its future in the district, while collapsed lender Credit Suisse is leaving after its integration into UBS, which is also based in the City.

Many staff will be delighted to work more centrally.

A JP Morgan banker who relocated from Canary Wharf to Paris in 2021 told financial website eFinancialCareers that the biggest win was the location.

Instead of being isolated in a Canary Wharf finance bubble with other lawyers and bankers, he was now in the US bank’s Paris hub within walking distance of places like the Jardin du Palais Royal.

The desire for flashy tower blocks in out-of-the-way areas has largely disappeared.

[kibuc]

9 hours ago, sancho panza said:

couple of elephants in the room they're missing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/05/how-nightlife-died-sadiq-khan-london/

How nightlife died in Sadiq Khan’s London

The capital’s night time economy has been hit with an onslaught of problems since Covid

More than 1,000 venues have closed in the capital over the last three years and some of London’s best-known institutions are currently under threat. 

The owner of London’s Heaven nightclub, once frequented by Freddie Mercury and Boy George, has warned that the club risks closure because of soaring rent costs. More than half of the capital’s LGBTQ+ venues shut their doors between 2006 and 2022.

 

 

Like the rest of the country, London’s night time economy has been hit with an onslaught of problems ever since the sector was decimated by pandemic closures. Rising energy costs, rents and a turn against alcohol among Gen Z have all played a part.

An average of two nightclubs closed every week between March 2020 and December 2023 across the UK, according to the Night Time Industries Association (NTIA).

Yet while London’s nightlight decline is far from unique, it has become a political flashpoint because of Sadiq Khan’s promise to revive it.

Many in the industry believe that laying the blame solely at Khan’s feet is unfair. The roots of the crisis run deep. The number of grassroots music venues in London fell by a third between 2007 and 2016, the year Khan was elected.

The first all-night tube services began in 2016. However, Kill believes Londoners are put off actually using the late-night lines because of rising crime rates, with incidents on the tube in particular rocketing last year.

While there are those who work in late night bars, red tape and cost pressures means that closing times are getting earlier and earlier in many cases. When Hackney’s popular late-night pub the Dolphin reopened last year, regulars were disappointed to find that it had significantly reduced hours.

This thread hasn't been derailed for over 24hrs so let me fix that.

I love clubbing but find it a rather disappointing experience here in UK, or at least in my area, and that's mostly due to the kind of music being played... Well, that's a lie, the most disappointing and frustrating aspect is a no-single-males-allowed policy implemented across most clubs in London, but I digress. Back to the music, it looks like the order of the day on any given weekend night is some undiscovered talent from Croydon mumbling in monotone while a single beat is played on loop in the background. No idea what to do when they play it, really. You cannot dance to it. You cannot sing along. There's nothing cheery about the tune. The moment anything catchy actually gets played (by mistake, I reckon), you can see people flooding onto the floor and having a great time, then it reverts into another hour of the same non-enjoyable nonsense that passes as music and everyone is dispersing back to their seats. Looks like DJs are mostly playing tracks for their own enjoynment, or they play things they were told were trendy and damn the customers if they don't agree.

I used to go to students' clubs where there used to play more of the classics, cheesy pop and party anthems but in my 40s I'd feel a bit out of place now. And it's not about and old fart not staying in touch with the trends - people around me in the club are in their mid 20s, sometimes early 30s and they react to the music being played in the manner described above.

No wonder people need to drink themselves stupid to enjoy the experience, and if that's off the table (either due to costs involved or because of the attitude shift) then I really don't know.

Edited March 6 by kibuc

[spygirl]

9 hours ago, sancho panza said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/04/canary-wharf-must-reinvent-itself-survive/

Banks are bailing out of soulless Canary Wharf – and who can blame them?

Poor Canary Wharf. As a group of bank bosses based in the heart of the City declare that they’re upsizing and moving to bigger offices down the road, they’re quick to stress that Canary Wharf was never a consideration.

Why would anyone want to work there, they argued, while drinking white wine and eating lobster from their top-floor meeting room.

They have a point. Although Canary Wharf completely transformed what was once a wasteland in east London, becoming a symbol of Margaret Thatcher’s free-market revolution and a byword for finance, the high-rise financial district is now looking outdated.

It lacks all the things that London is famous for, the history and culture, and post-pandemic these are increasingly the assets that pull people in.

With fewer suits and less focus on financial services, it could find a way to make itself feel less isolated from the rest of London. Now it takes just 18 minutes to get from Canary Wharf to Paddington, there’s no reason it should feel so separate.  

The high-profile list of big-name exits suggests that a decision has already been made.

 

 

HSBC is ditching its 45-story skyscraper, nicknamed the “tower of doom” by staff, once its lease runs out in 2027.

Magic Circle law firm Clifford Chance plans to head off a year later, following rival law firm Skadden’s decision in 2021 to swap Canary Wharf for London’s historic Square Mile.

Ratings agency Moody’s is also considering its future in the district, while collapsed lender Credit Suisse is leaving after its integration into UBS, which is also based in the City.

Many staff will be delighted to work more centrally.

A JP Morgan banker who relocated from Canary Wharf to Paris in 2021 told financial website eFinancialCareers that the biggest win was the location.

Instead of being isolated in a Canary Wharf finance bubble with other lawyers and bankers, he was now in the US bank’s Paris hub within walking distance of places like the Jardin du Palais Royal.

The desire for flashy tower blocks in out-of-the-way areas has largely disappeared.

When I started work all of eek 32ish years ago .....

The org had a VAXserver cluster

This cost well over 2m.

It sat literally on its own floor, special power supply, gas to put out fires.

And there were 6 people on site fussing around it on ££££££££££

Each department ha a general secretary. Each manger had their own secretary.

When I turned up I had to get by the door which was run by 3 people, 6am to 10pm.

 

Toady, when I actually go an office, I have to buzz orring someone to get in - no door.

There is no admin support at all. You are lucky to get an office manager.

There is little to no management - most orgs are pretty flat.

Theservers tend to be sat in a corner, running by them themselves.

Backups go to an auto tape device and cloud.

And thats it. Th demand for office space is less than 10% than it was.

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, kibuc said:

This thread hasn't been derailed for over 24hrs so let me fix that.

I love clubbing but find it a rather disappointing experience here in UK, or at least in my area, and that's mostly due to the kind of music being played... Well, that's a lie, the most disappointing and frustrating aspect is a no-single-males-allowed policy implemented across most clubs in London, but I digress. Back to the music, it looks like the order of the day on any given weekend night is some undiscovered talent from Croydon mumbling in monotone while a single beat is played on loop in the background. No idea what to do when they play it, really. You cannot dance to it. You cannot sing along. There's nothing cheery about the tune. The moment anything catchy actually gets played (by mistake, I reckon), you can see people flooding onto the floor and having a great time, then it reverts into another hour of the same non-enjoyable nonsense that passes as music and everyone is dispersing back to their seats. Looks like DJs are mostly playing tracks for their own enjoynment, or they play things they were told were trendy and damn the customers if they don't agree.

I used to go to students' clubs where there used to play more of the classics, cheesy pop and party anthems but in my 40s I'd feel a bit out of place now. And it's not about and old fart not staying in touch with the trends - people around me in the club are in their mid 20s, sometimes early 30s and they react to the music being played in the manner described above.

No wonder people need to drink themselves stupid to enjoy the experience, and if that's off the table (either due to costs involved or because of the attitude shift) then I really don't know.

 

[Yadda yadda yadda]

10 hours ago, sancho panza said:

While there are those who work in late night bars, red tape and cost pressures means that closing times are getting earlier and earlier in many cases. When Hackney’s popular late-night pub the Dolphin reopened last year, regulars were disappointed to find that it had significantly reduced hours.

My takeaway from that is that Telegraph journalists are reduced to living in Hackney.

There are fewer clubs because of rising costs. A proper night out is now very expensive. It is a result of the impoverishment of the population. Especially young adults. This one isn't actually khan's fault. The night tube thing doesn't wash as that only covers a small part of the city and it didn't exist until recently. The rise in dating apps probably means clubs have lost part of their appeal anyway. No surprise those places are shutting down.

[Yadda yadda yadda]

1 hour ago, kibuc said:

This thread hasn't been derailed for over 24hrs so let me fix that.

I love clubbing but find it a rather disappointing experience here in UK, or at least in my area, and that's mostly due to the kind of music being played... Well, that's a lie, the most disappointing and frustrating aspect is a no-single-males-allowed policy implemented across most clubs in London, but I digress. Back to the music, it looks like the order of the day on any given weekend night is some undiscovered talent from Croydon mumbling in monotone while a single beat is played on loop in the background. No idea what to do when they play it, really. You cannot dance to it. You cannot sing along. There's nothing cheery about the tune. The moment anything catchy actually gets played (by mistake, I reckon), you can see people flooding onto the floor and having a great time, then it reverts into another hour of the same non-enjoyable nonsense that passes as music and everyone is dispersing back to their seats. Looks like DJs are mostly playing tracks for their own enjoynment, or they play things they were told were trendy and damn the customers if they don't agree.

I used to go to students' clubs where there used to play more of the classics, cheesy pop and party anthems but in my 40s I'd feel a bit out of place now. And it's not about and old fart not staying in touch with the trends - people around me in the club are in their mid 20s, sometimes early 30s and they react to the music being played in the manner described above.

No wonder people need to drink themselves stupid to enjoy the experience, and if that's off the table (either due to costs involved or because of the attitude shift) then I really don't know.

I'm surprised there aren't some properly cheesy places in London. Not even the chains?

[kibuc]

12 minutes ago, Yadda yadda yadda said:

I'm surprised there aren't some properly cheesy places in London. Not even the chains?

Popworld perhaps, but only been once so far. Might give it another shot in central London, as that one was in Watford.

[AWW]

1 hour ago, Yadda yadda yadda said:

My takeaway from that is that Telegraph journalists are reduced to living in Hackney.

I doubt they could afford Hackney. More likely Tottenham or Edmonton, Stoke Newington if they're lucky.

As per every other housing boom, people ended up moving further and further out. There was seemingly a new "up and coming" area every year.

Hackney is a strange mix of city types and yummy mummy millionaires thrown together with borderline mentally ill benefit claimants/wannabe gangsta scum.

[reformed nice guy]

10 hours ago, kibuc said:

 the most disappointing and frustrating aspect is a no-single-males-allowed policy implemented across most clubs

I could ask my friend Stewart for a advice with this problem.

Whenever he shows the lads a picture of the clubs he goes to it is almost all single males.

[desertorchid]

11 hours ago, AWW said:

I doubt they could afford Hackney. More likely Tottenham or Edmonton, Stoke Newington if they're lucky.

As per every other housing boom, people ended up moving further and further out. There was seemingly a new "up and coming" area every year.

Hackney is a strange mix of city types and yummy mummy millionaires thrown together with borderline mentally ill benefit claimants/wannabe gangsta scum.

Diversity innit

[spygirl]

Bear with me - I almost put this in Take this job n shove it ...

Radio. Two people struggling to get jobs.

Like most radio they didnt ask the important jobs.

Bloke 57? 'brutally sacked' his words, from a job in city/finsec'

Woman, 61, lost finsec job during pandemic.

Both sounds Southern ie didnt have regional, never mind Northern accents.

Blah blah ..... can get a job .....

Presenter to woman - Is it ageism or sexism ...

Woman - A bit of both. Women are seen as pat where as men are seen as silver coxes.experience..

Im like - Err, matey boy bloke doesnt share that opinion.

Anyhow, the question Id have asked -

What job did you do?

What skills do you have?

What transferable skills do you have?

What jobs are you applying for?

MY guess is that of they applied for a low paid shop job then theyd get it.

Id guess they think they are employable outside of finsec, and expect the same sort of money.

And they probably dont have  transferable skills -other than chairing meetings.

The thing is, unless you have a specific, in demand technical skills, theres little to none transferable skills.

40 years working for NatWest, progressing from bank  to regional manager counts for fuck all outside of NatWest. And if Natwest dont want you then neither will anyone else.

You have to swallowed pride and wage expectations and start again, right at the bottom.

Ive seen this a few time personally.

One, when all the heavy industrial/mining jobs went - Steel ICI. People whod be on good money - ~80k today moneys - found no one wanted them anymore.

Two, when Oil price cycles, and people offshore doing ~20k onshore but earning 70k tax free, found they were out and never returning.

In both cases the people did nothing other than expect their old jobs to return.

The jobs didnt come back.

Well, the oils one did, eventually, but by then theyd been away for 5y - too old, too fat.

What happened in the North in the 80s is now happening in South. This has been going on, fast slow, since 2007.

The Finsec as a large n well paying employer is over.

You are not going back.

90% wont have transferable skills - tills or pushing trolleys or taxi driving.

And I still dont think its sunk in yet.

The slow but sure move to WFH for a n lot of other London jobs is also destroying London.

[PETR4]

3 hours ago, spygirl said:

Bear with me - I almost put this in Take this job n shove it ...

Radio. Two people struggling to get jobs.

Like most radio they didnt ask the important jobs.

Bloke 57? 'brutally sacked' his words, from a job in city/finsec'

Woman, 61, lost finsec job during pandemic.

Both sounds Southern ie didnt have regional, never mind Northern accents.

Blah blah ..... can get a job .....

Presenter to woman - Is it ageism or sexism ...

Woman - A bit of both. Women are seen as pat where as men are seen as silver coxes.experience..

Im like - Err, matey boy bloke doesnt share that opinion.

Anyhow, the question Id have asked -

What job did you do?

What skills do you have?

What transferable skills do you have?

What jobs are you applying for?

MY guess is that of they applied for a low paid shop job then theyd get it.

Id guess they think they are employable outside of finsec, and expect the same sort of money.

And they probably dont have  transferable skills -other than chairing meetings.

The thing is, unless you have a specific, in demand technical skills, theres little to none transferable skills.

40 years working for NatWest, progressing from bank  to regional manager counts for fuck all outside of NatWest. And if Natwest dont want you then neither will anyone else.

You have to swallowed pride and wage expectations and start again, right at the bottom.

Ive seen this a few time personally.

One, when all the heavy industrial/mining jobs went - Steel ICI. People whod be on good money - ~80k today moneys - found no one wanted them anymore.

Two, when Oil price cycles, and people offshore doing ~20k onshore but earning 70k tax free, found they were out and never returning.

In both cases the people did nothing other than expect their old jobs to return.

The jobs didnt come back.

Well, the oils one did, eventually, but by then theyd been away for 5y - too old, too fat.

What happened in the North in the 80s is now happening in South. This has been going on, fast slow, since 2007.

The Finsec as a large n well paying employer is over.

You are not going back.

90% wont have transferable skills - tills or pushing trolleys or taxi driving.

And I still dont think its sunk in yet.

The slow but sure move to WFH for a n lot of other London jobs is also destroying London.

In there situation @spygirl what area would you recommend they retrain in and start at the bottom?

Serious question as I might be there myself soon!

[spygirl]

7 minutes ago, PETR4 said:

In there situation @spygirl what area would you recommend they retrain in and start at the bottom?

Serious question as I might be there myself soon!

You want an easy, sure fire middle income?

And you can use a computer and turn up for work?

Nurse.

Unlike Dr, Easy to get training.

Pays very well.

Soon - a v dim light bulb will go on - our current set of female nurses are shit and can't use a computer, never  mind turn up.

That bloke who retrained, turns up for every shift and can use the computer ....

 

 

[spygirl]

I read the headlines n went - everyday?

It isn't.

The rise of the super-commuter

More people are embracing longer work journeys for better quality of life

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d33fcf89-71fe-4998-830c-df399070ee39

Mohammed Marikar’s typical commute to his office in the City of London takes three and a half hours. On a bad day, it is more than four.

Marikar and his wife, who runs her own business, moved with their four children from Eastcote, north-west London, to north Wales in 2022. Instead of his previous daily commute of 75 minutes, Marikar gets up at 5am on a Tuesday morning and is at his desk at about 10am — working a later shift so he can overlap with colleagues in Toronto. He returns to Wales after work on Thursday. On Mondays and Fridays, he works from home.

You hear that rumbling sound?

It's people quitting London in droves.

[AWW]

11 hours ago, spygirl said:

I read the headlines n went - everyday?

It isn't.

The rise of the super-commuter

More people are embracing longer work journeys for better quality of life

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d33fcf89-71fe-4998-830c-df399070ee39

Mohammed Marikar’s typical commute to his office in the City of London takes three and a half hours. On a bad day, it is more than four.

Marikar and his wife, who runs her own business, moved with their four children from Eastcote, north-west London, to north Wales in 2022. Instead of his previous daily commute of 75 minutes, Marikar gets up at 5am on a Tuesday morning and is at his desk at about 10am — working a later shift so he can overlap with colleagues in Toronto. He returns to Wales after work on Thursday. On Mondays and Fridays, he works from home.

You hear that rumbling sound?

It's people quitting London in droves.

But that sounds like an absolutely shit life. Unless of course you don't actually like being at home.

[spygirl]

6 hours ago, AWW said:

But that sounds like an absolutely shit life. Unless of course you don't actually like being at home.

As soon as you have kids then London becomes shit.

Maybe its coming from a fishing fmaily but a 2 or 3 days away during the week isnt that bad.

 

 

[AWW]

1 hour ago, spygirl said:

As soon as you have kids then London becomes shit.

Depends how much money you have.

[Alifelessbinary]

13 hours ago, spygirl said:

As soon as you have kids then London becomes shit.

Maybe its coming from a fishing fmaily but a 2 or 3 days away during the week isnt that bad.

 

 

As someone who has kids and lives in London I disagree, but as AWW says it depends how much money you have. I’d also add it depends whether you’ve managed to buy a family home. 

Of the people I know who left London half have returned. Anyone who is spending four hours commuting for a “better quality of life” is nuts. 

There’s certainly a shift in London, but from Monday - Thursday you still need to queue for 30 mins for some of the lunch places near me. This has mainly been caused by the crapper places closing so competition has increased.

Some retail parades will close and asset managers are still trying out new strategies. While not at pre-do I’d levels there also seems to be a load of tourists around.

If you visit you’ll see.

 

 

 

[AWW]

Don't really understand how having kids would suddenly make London shit. There's loads of stuff for them to do. Far more than in, say, my home city back in Yorkshire. Personally, I'm ready to move back there (Mrs AWW isn't, but she's an actual born and bred Londoner, a rare breed) but wanting to move out is nothing to do with us having kids, more to do with my own interests changing as I age.
It's just another trope trotted out by people who don't actually live here and think everywhere in London is like Forest Gate or West Norwood, and that kids must be brought up in some sparsely populated rural backwater otherwise they'll join a man dem at 14 and be out wetting their rivals.