Death Of London

[wherebee]

37 minutes ago, desertorchid said:

I would add to that. After being in London the last month (first time in over 10 years) I would say central london is actually very liveable. Some lovely open spaces, roads not too busy, a truly diverse population and  a great use of cycling on less congested roads. Some great eateries and interesting boozers. BUT no-one can actually live there unless you are on over a 6 figure salary, and even then you are not living anywhere grand.

But you are correct as soon as you get outside zone 1 things go downhill very very quickly.

I lived and worked in very central london (think hyde park, etc) for a number of years.  Awesome.

But as you say, you either need big moolah or a work paid pad, or, as I did, find someone to fuck with one or both of those attributes.

[Bien Pensant]

On 02/08/2023 at 08:47, AWW said:

I suspect your interactions with people who've lived in London are heavily skewed towards those who didn't like it. That's why they left. The ones who do are still here. Personally, I think it has its issues, like any urban area. But they are completely overblown in the press and I'd take London over Birmingham or Manchester, and it's infinitely preferable to pretty much any provincial town. Of course, there's no point comparing it to some rural village because they're nothing alike.

I was born and raised in London, my parents still live there and when I lived in a regional city in the early Noughties I fucking hated it: Everything closed at 5 PM, except Wednesday when it was midday and Sunday when they just didn't bother opening (and then they'd bitch that business was bad, despite the fact that they were only open when people were at fucking work) ; There was nothing to do ; there were no opportunities ; Everyone was miserable (I actually used to feel self-conscious because people just didn't smile when you met them, which made me think that I'd done something to offend them). So , I couldn't wait to get back to London.

The reason the place was like that was that it was a post-industrial town and so things were just generally in decline.

Well, I now live just outside London but am in the city practically every day and, let me tell you, it's going the same way and for the same reasons.

In the digital age, there's just no reason for a city like London to continue to exist. Paradoxically, it might make sense if it was still industrialised, with things needing to be moved between works, but all the businesses in the Capital deal in is information and there's just no reason to meet people face to face these days. To whatever extent you can 'gauge a man by his handshake', it just isn't worth the cost, especially when markets are worldwide anyway.

Despite that, the city's getting ridiculously crowded - my parents are about to lose their view of the sky thanks to a high-rise development that's being built on a tiny scrap of land which used to be someone's workplace and which no one would previously have bothered with for residential development because it's so small.

So , ever more people, fewer places to work and less and less for them to do. London's turning into another post-industrial city, just one whose industry used to be 'knowledge'.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Bien Pensant

[spygirl]

5 hours ago, desertorchid said:

I would add to that. After being in London the last month (first time in over 10 years) I would say central london is actually very liveable. Some lovely open spaces, roads not too busy, a truly diverse population and  a great use of cycling on less congested roads. Some great eateries and interesting boozers. BUT no-one can actually live there unless you are on over a 6 figure salary, and even then you are not living anywhere grand.

But you are correct as soon as you get outside zone 1 things go downhill very very quickly.

I think the fact theres so much in Z1 sucks out the demand/drive to create something in the outer urbs - or even the home counties.

And the expense sucks demand out too.

I remember living ~1h out and going - God, its boring, dont you go out?

Oh, we can go to London theyd say.

Oh how often?

Oh, we dont actually go  into London much ....

 

[spygirl]

3 hours ago, Bien Pensant said:

I was born and raised in London, my parents still live there and when I lived in a regional city in the early Noughties I fucking hated it: Everything closed at 5 PM, except Wednesday when it was midday and Sunday when they just didn't bother opening (and then they'd bitch that business was bad, despite the fact that they were only open when people were at fucking work) ; There was nothing to do ; there were no opportunities ; Everyone was miserable (I actually used to feel self-conscious because people just didn't smile when you met them, which made me think that I'd done something to offend them). So , I couldn't wait to get back to London.

The reason the place was like that was that it was a post-industrial town and so things were just generally in decline.

Well, I now live just outside London but am in the city practically every day and, let me tell you, it's going the same way and for the same reasons.

In the digital age, there's just no reason for a city like London to continue to exist. Paradoxically, it might make sense if it was still industrialised, with things needing to be moved between works, but all the businesses in the Capital deal in is information and there's just no reason to meet people face to face these days. To whatever extent you can 'gauge a man by his handshake', it just isn't worth the cost, especially when markets are worldwide anyway.

Despite that, the city's getting ridiculously crowded - my parents are about to lose their view of the sky thanks to a high-rise development that's being built on a tiny scrap of land which used to be someone's workplace and which no one would previously have bothered with for residential development because it's so small.

So , ever more people, fewer places to work and less and less for them to do. London's turning into another post-industrial city, just one whose industry used to be 'knowledge'.

Theres a need for more fast/easy transport - train n bus  rather than cities as were

MY argument against places like Reading, which will blow up, on the TOS was that the old M4 corridor was car based. That was fine for a few years (mid 8-s to mid 90s) but the volume of traffic got to a level that you barely travel fuckall after ~2000.

A mate used to drive ~20 miles. In the time Ive known him it went from m 30-40min to 90min, with the odd 2h not being uncommon. Thats not doable.

 

[AWW]

5 hours ago, Bien Pensant said:

I was born and raised in London, my parents still live there and when I lived in a regional city in the early Noughties I fucking hated it: Everything closed at 5 PM, except Wednesday when it was midday and Sunday when they just didn't bother opening (and then they'd bitch that business was bad, despite the fact that they were only open when people were at fucking work) ; There was nothing to do ; there were no opportunities ; Everyone was miserable (I actually used to feel self-conscious because people just didn't smile when you met them, which made me think that I'd done something to offend them). So , I couldn't wait to get back to London.

The reason the place was like that was that it was a post-industrial town and so things were just generally in decline.

Well, I now live just outside London but am in the city practically every day and, let me tell you, it's going the same way and for the same reasons.

In the digital age, there's just no reason for a city like London to continue to exist. Paradoxically, it might make sense if it was still industrialised, with things needing to be moved between works, but all the businesses in the Capital deal in is information and there's just no reason to meet people face to face these days. To whatever extent you can 'gauge a man by his handshake', it just isn't worth the cost, especially when markets are worldwide anyway.

Despite that, the city's getting ridiculously crowded - my parents are about to lose their view of the sky thanks to a high-rise development that's being built on a tiny scrap of land which used to be someone's workplace and which no one would previously have bothered with for residential development because it's so small.

So , ever more people, fewer places to work and less and less for them to do. London's turning into another post-industrial city, just one whose industry used to be 'knowledge'.

London is much more than its offices.

Canary Wharf will die and nobody will mourn it.

[AWW]

1 hour ago, spygirl said:

I think the fact theres so much in Z1 sucks out the demand/drive to create something in the outer urbs - or even the home counties.

And the expense sucks demand out too.

I remember living ~1h out and going - God, its boring, dont you go out?

Oh, we can go to London theyd say.

Oh how often?

Oh, we dont actually go  into London much ....

 

That has changed a lot since Covid.

[Virgil Caine]

3 hours ago, AWW said:

London is much more than its offices.

Canary Wharf will die and nobody will mourn it.

It’s on the Isle of Dogs where occultist John Dee is supposed  to  have summoned up demons

https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/mudchute-omphalos/

[Xtal]

4 hours ago, AWW said:

London is much more than its offices.

Canary Wharf will die and nobody will mourn it.

Yes, I was in Canary Wharf last week. Quite a few bars near the tube closed down. They'd have been heaving at 5pm pre 2020. Other parts of London I went through looked to be holding up quite well though.

 

5 hours ago, spygirl said:

I think the fact theres so much in Z1 sucks out the demand/drive to create something in the outer urbs - or even the home counties.

And the expense sucks demand out too.

I remember living ~1h out and going - God, its boring, dont you go out?

Oh, we can go to London theyd say.

Oh how often?

Oh, we dont actually go  into London much ....

 

Maybe further out that's the case. Wife and I lived in Z3 , 10/15 mins on the train into central London and loved it. Plenty going on where we were and we'd probably still be there if we hadn't had children. Some areas would be a bit sketchy but you learn where not to go and when. Didn't want to raise kids there though so we moved out. 

[Yadda yadda yadda]

3 hours ago, Xtal said:

Maybe further out that's the case. Wife and I lived in Z3 , 10/15 mins on the train into central London and loved it. Plenty going on where we were and we'd probably still be there if we hadn't had children. Some areas would be a bit sketchy but you learn where not to go and when. Didn't want to raise kids there though so we moved out. 

It is a patchwork. Some good, some bad and some ugly. People have been posting that they like central London but I wouldn't want to live there. Full of tourists. Great if you're in your 20s and out several nights per week. Not so much when you're a bit older.

[Mouse]

7 hours ago, Virgil Caine said:

It’s on the Isle of Dogs where occultist John Dee is supposed  to  have summoned up demons

https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/mudchute-omphalos/

Thanks for posting that it was really interesting. You can virtually see the ley line on google maps, curiously there has never been any major building work on it, it's all parks and gardens, another interesting feature is All Saints Church which has exactly 666 seats!

It seems that there is an awful lot of symbolism and freemasonry activity in the area.

[Bien Pensant]

14 hours ago, AWW said:

London is much more than its offices.

Like what?

Ultimately, any place depends on its primary industry and that's London's.

[AWW]

54 minutes ago, Bien Pensant said:

Like what?

Ultimately, any place depends on its primary industry and that's London's.

I was responding to "In the digital age, there's just no reason for a city like London to continue to exist."  London has existed for 2,000 years.  It existed before industrialisation, before the mass adoption of computing, before financialisation, and it'll continue to exist for centuries to come.  Surely, if there's no need for London to exist, there's no reason for any other city to exist?  They all do what London does, but not as well.

(in the UK)

[Rare Bear]

8 minutes ago, AWW said:

I was responding to "In the digital age, there's just no reason for a city like London to continue to exist."  London has existed for 2,000 years.  It existed before industrialisation, before the mass adoption of computing, before financialisation, and it'll continue to exist for centuries to come.  Surely, if there's no need for London to exist, there's no reason for any other city to exist?  They all do what London does, but not as well.

(in the UK)

Citys tended to happen at the lowest point on a major river where a bridge could be built. They happened rather than were planned.

[Bien Pensant]

22 minutes ago, AWW said:

London has existed for 2,000 years.

Sure, there's been a settlement in its location for thousands of years (although, IIRC, it was actually abandoned for a good few hundred years after the Romans left). But, that's true of most places which are at nodes in the natural transport network - in London's case, it's the first bridging point inland of the Thames Estuary, where tracks coming up through and around the Downs carried on Northwards, and was therefore the obvious location for the port from which all its wealth, including its financial sector, was originally derived.

But the question is how big will it be?

The Ironbridge valley used to be lined with iron works, today it struggles to support a few tea-rooms.

A place can find itself in reduced circumstances very quickly.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Bien Pensant

[Yadda yadda yadda]

15 minutes ago, AWW said:

I was responding to "In the digital age, there's just no reason for a city like London to continue to exist."  London has existed for 2,000 years.  It existed before industrialisation, before the mass adoption of computing, before financialisation, and it'll continue to exist for centuries to come.  Surely, if there's no need for London to exist, there's no reason for any other city to exist?  They all do what London does, but not as well.

(in the UK)

London has had all sorts of industries over the years. People 90 years ago wouldn't believe that the docks, which were enormous, would all be gone and that there would be no large scale markets in inner London. All those jobs have been replaced and then some.

London is still a centre for government, media, tourism, entertainment, culture and countless other things as well as financial services. You can't very well have virtual museums, restaurants or design houses.

Cities that fade away tend to be one industry towns. London isn't that. It is possible that it shrinks again like it did for several decades post war. Even that seems unlikely unless the immigration tap is turned off. Housing is in too much demand to allow housing in London to lie empty.

[Bien Pensant]

11 minutes ago, Yadda yadda yadda said:

Cities that fade away tend to be one industry towns. London isn't that.

London is a one-industry town, it's just that that industry hasn't previously come under threat - it's industry is information and, with the massive reduction in the cost of telecommunications, its role in that industry is being undermined.

There's a nice little book from 1931, Markets of London by Cuthbert Maughan, which describes all the Capital's contemporary wholesale markets and what they sold, from ship charters on the Baltic Exchange to the canned goods trade. In those days, even telegrams were expensive (I forget the figures but they were really pricey) so the only things that were traded remotely were those that could be completely specified by grade, i.e. 'commodities'. Therefore, things that could not be so specified were frequently shipped into London to be displayed and sold and then shipped back out, often to somewhere very close to where they'd originally come from. However, as the amount of information you can transfer about something increases, the need to do that diminishes and so what was originally confined to markets which traded purely in contracts, e.g. the stock exchange, is now happening in many others.

London is a natural meeting point in the British Isles and has had a lot of investment put into its transport infrastructure, especially its urban- and light-rail, so people will still make use of it for that purpose and that will lend a certain inertia to its decline. However, decline it will and that is impacting and will continue to impact the standard of living of those residing there.

[Stuey]

3 hours ago, Bien Pensant said:

London is a one-industry town, it's just that that industry hasn't previously come under threat - it's industry is information and, with the massive reduction in the cost of telecommunications, its role in that industry is being undermined.

There's a nice little book from 1931, Markets of London by Cuthbert Maughan, which describes all the Capital's contemporary wholesale markets and what they sold, from ship charters on the Baltic Exchange to the canned goods trade. In those days, even telegrams were expensive (I forget the figures but they were really pricey) so the only things that were traded remotely were those that could be completely specified by grade, i.e. 'commodities'. Therefore, things that could not be so specified were frequently shipped into London to be displayed and sold and then shipped back out, often to somewhere very close to where they'd originally come from. However, as the amount of information you can transfer about something increases, the need to do that diminishes and so what was originally confined to markets which traded purely in contracts, e.g. the stock exchange, is now happening in many others.

London is a natural meeting point in the British Isles and has had a lot of investment put into its transport infrastructure, especially its urban- and light-rail, so people will still make use of it for that purpose and that will lend a certain inertia to its decline. However, decline it will and that is impacting and will continue to impact the standard of living of those residing there.

There's also tourism. 

And yes the fact that all the mass transport grid uses London as the focus. If I knew the southeast I'd provide an example, but I know many who complain that they have to go into London and back out as the radial connections are so poor. 

But it's still in decline 

I used to like going there until around ten years ago but the idea now is horrific. 

[Bien Pensant]

41 minutes ago, Stuey said:

There's also tourism. 

And yes the fact that all the mass transport grid uses London as the focus. If I knew the southeast I'd provide an example, but I know many who complain that they have to go into London and back out as the radial connections are so poor. 

But it's still in decline 

I used to like going there until around ten years ago but the idea now is horrific. 

Personally, I literally don't know what tourists get out of the place. For myself, I don't hate it but it is getting harder and harder to see the point of it. When I used to talk to people from elsewhere they'd tell me that London was great because 'you can get anything there'. Well, since the Internet came along you can get anything anywhere and that applies just as much to business as it does to individuals.

On the subject of transport links, there's an episode of Jack Hargreaves' Out of Town (episode 7, "Market Day", on Volume 3 of the DVD collection) in which, with a pair of dividers and a map, he demonstrates how the country was overlaid by a network of roads which linked market-towns, never more than 10-14 miles apart. The reason for this was that 5 to 7 miles was the furthest it was practical to drive a herd or lug produce to market. (He says that the social result of this was to divide the UK up into zones, of about 10-15 miles across, with quite varying cultures.)

However, by that time, 1976, everything had changed - thanks to cars and trains, commerce had come to be concentrated in only about 1/5th of those towns and all the others had essentially died.

Undoubtedly, London, as the UK's most important market-town, benefited from that trend. However, unlike physical transportation, the Internet is a decentralising technology so I'd expect that trend to be in reverse today, especially as so few young people are learning to drive and/or buying cars these days.

[Stuey]

4 minutes ago, Bien Pensant said:

Personally, I literally don't know what tourists get out of the place. For myself, I don't hate it but it is getting harder and harder to see the point of it. When I used to talk to people from elsewhere they'd tell me that London was great because 'you can get anything there'. Well, since the Internet came along you can get anything anywhere and that applies just as much to business as it does to individuals.

On the subject of transport links, there's an episode of Jack Hargreaves' Out of Town (episode 7, "Market Day", on Volume 3 of the DVD collection) in which, with a pair of dividers and a map, he demonstrates how the country was overlaid by a network of roads which linked market-towns, never more than 10-14 miles apart. The reason for this was that 5 to 7 miles was the furthest it was practical to drive a herd or lug produce to market. (He says that the social result of this was to divide the UK up into zones, of about 10-15 miles across, with quite varying cultures.)

However, by that time, 1976, everything had changed - thanks to cars and trains, commerce had come to be concentrated in only about 1/5th of those towns and all the others had essentially died.

Undoubtedly, London, as the UK's most important market-town, benefited from that trend. However, unlike physical transportation, the Internet is a decentralising technology so I'd expect that trend to be in reverse today, especially as so few young people are learning to drive and/or buying cars these days.

I think having seen huge events play out in London on their TV from the last century that is probably one draw. For us it's a bit been-there-done-that by the age of 22.

Don't most Brits gravitate to New York, Philly, DC, Boston when they visit the US. 

I still get a buzz from walking into a (real) old pub with low beams and tiling and fireplaces and being able to feel and smell the history. London must be like that for tourists right. 

In terms of towns 15 miles away etc. Most have a similar character now. But if you go off the beaten trail to untouristy places hard to reach (poor roads, no rail) then places have definitely kept their culture. 

[Rare Bear]

When I came to London first in 1970 I was astonished at the number of what you might call dirty hands industries spread all over the place. I'd imagine people got a longish lease and the areas around them gradually became more gentrified.

[AWW]

12 hours ago, Bien Pensant said:

The Ironbridge valley used to be lined with iron works, today it struggles to support a few tea-rooms.

I don't see the comparison at all.

[PatronizingGit]

On 04/08/2023 at 08:18, AWW said:

London is much more than its offices.

Canary Wharf will die and nobody will mourn it.

Mores the pity. Canary wharf should have served as a holding pen for all these high rise carbuncles. As it is, large portions of London neighbourhoods & streets will be cast into the shadows & turned into wind tunnel urban canyons thanks to the number of high rises polluting the whole area now.

[Bien Pensant]

On 05/08/2023 at 12:16, AWW said:

I don't see the comparison at all.

All London's industries - finance, media, government, such speciality retail as it hasn't already lost to the Web - are based on the fact that it is a convenient meeting place. However, that becomes less important the cheaper telecommunications become.

As a result, government's been moving out for 50 years, media for 25 and finance for 15.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Bien Pensant

[AWW]

3 hours ago, Bien Pensant said:

All London's industries - finance, media, government, such speciality retail as it hasn't already lost to the Web - are based on the fact that it is a convenient meeting place. However, that becomes less important the cheaper telecommunications become.

As a result, government's been moving out for 50 years, media for 25 and finance for 15.

The City (I'm talking about the contemporary finance industry, not the docks, not the markets) is successful because of its timezone, regulatory environment, UK immigration policy and the general liveability of the capital. Being a convenient meeting place has nothing to do with it, otherwise the City would be in Hounslow. Obviously there is some history to it, such as the impact of the Franco-Prussian war on the Banque de France's ability to exchange notes for gold, but its position today is largely thanks to the Big Bang and the quality of life on offer (if you have the money!)

[Bien Pensant]

On 06/08/2023 at 20:10, AWW said:

The City (I'm talking about the contemporary finance industry, not the docks, not the markets) is successful because of its timezone, regulatory environment, UK immigration policy and the general liveability of the capital. Being a convenient meeting place has nothing to do with it, otherwise the City would be in Hounslow. Obviously there is some history to it, such as the impact of the Franco-Prussian war on the Banque de France's ability to exchange notes for gold, but its position today is largely thanks to the Big Bang and the quality of life on offer (if you have the money!)

Hounslow?

Because of Heathrow, right? In practice, that's an hour from the City and is for plebs. The private jets fly into London City, which is built on the old King George V Dock, i.e. in Docklands and next to the City.

If it's not because it's a convenient meeting place then what is it, the buzz? If that were the case then it'd be in Paris. At the end of the day London wouldn't have enjoyed the position it has for, at least, the last few hundred years if there weren't some underlying cause in its economic/commercial geography.

As for time-zones, sure, that's definitely a factor but that doesn't distinguish it from anywhere else in the British Isles and I'm sure that finance bros on the Continent would be prepared to get up and go to bed an hour earlier if it meant having London's status.

Fundamentally, the City is emptying out. Since algo-trading came in the 'floors have been so empty that government departments now occupy them. Traditionally, as soon as dealers got together a little scratch they'd move out to the 'Broker-Belt so if they're working from home now then that's where they'll be, not in a studio-flat in Wandsworth soaking in the 'buzz' from their neighbours' sub-woofers.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Bien Pensant