Death Of London

[maynardgravy]

If ever anything needed completely nationalising, it's the railways 

[mattydread]

3 hours ago, spygirl said:

Rail price rise 'would hit commuters like a ton of bricks'... and force thousands to WFH: Fury as season tickets could soar by nearly 12% next year amid cost of living crisis - with annual Bath to London fare up £1,075 to OVER £10,000

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10788639/UK-train-ticket-prices-cost-rail-travel-set-soar-nearly-12-year.html

Why any daft cunt would commute Bath - London is beyond words..

[spygirl]

2 minutes ago, mattydread said:

Why any daft cunt would commute Bath - London is beyond words..

I know a fair few.

You dont think working in a giftshop will give you enough cash to buy a house in Bath?

[Bear Hug]

3 hours ago, spygirl said:

Rail price rise 'would hit commuters like a ton of bricks'... and force thousands to WFH: Fury as season tickets could soar by nearly 12% next year amid cost of living crisis - with annual Bath to London fare up £1,075 to OVER £10,000

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10788639/UK-train-ticket-prices-cost-rail-travel-set-soar-nearly-12-year.html

They are getting rinsed

[Chewing Grass]

4 hours ago, spygirl said:

Rail price rise 'would hit commuters like a ton of bricks'... and force thousands to WFH: Fury as season tickets could soar by nearly 12% next year amid cost of living crisis - with annual Bath to London fare up £1,075 to OVER £10,000

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10788639/UK-train-ticket-prices-cost-rail-travel-set-soar-nearly-12-year.html

Equivalent to 200,000 worth of mortgage money for the privilege of spending 90 minutes each way on a train each day.

15 hours a week removed from your life.

[Delboy]

53 minutes ago, mattydread said:

Why any daft cunt would commute Bath - London is beyond words..

Back in the 1980's, I did a brief 2 week stint working in London, catching the train daily from Bristol.

The outward bound journey on the train was bearable, but the return journey was horrendous.

Passengers were packed like sardines and forced to stand, for virtually the whole journey home.  It was hot, sweaty and tiring, especially since work also involved standing all day. An experience I have gladly not have to repeat since.

The only respite came as the train entered Bath and virtually every passenger left the train.

This was 40 years ago, so a lot of people were commuting Bath-London even then.

 

[spygirl]

Foppish bi of page filla about that Mogg boke and the CS not being at  their desk- 

The ‘Pret tax’ will keep me away from the office

Lunch al desko is over a tenner once you’ve supplemented your sandwich with coffee, crisps, yoghurt and a popcorn bar

https://www.ft.com/content/f0d33873-895f-417b-93a4-a7eb10896058

But it’s more than just a new and more efficient way of doing my job that keeps me in leafy East Finchley. The truth, which I suspect holds for many of us in these straitened times, is that I don’t think I could afford to go to work any more even if I wanted to. For a Londoner, working from home saves 200-odd quid a month on travel. For people who commute in from suburbia on the train or in a car, that figure will be some way higher. And by being at home for the school run, you save a small fortune on after-school clubs or nannies.

Then there are the incidental expenses. We could call it the “Pret tax”. You can’t really get lunch al desko for less than a tenner these days — not once you’ve supplemented your sandwich with a coffee, a packet of crisps, a yoghurt pot, one of those nice popcorn bars and, if peckish, another sandwich. There’ll be the coffee in the morning on your way in, obviously, too. Plus a croissant to keep your strength up. Perhaps an afternoon run for a cup of Assam, or pints after work with colleagues.

At home, lunch every day is a bowl of home-made lentil soup and a cheese sandwich. You scratch-cook more and grab takeaway or ready meals less in the evenings. If you’re after treats, a quid or so gets you five oatmeal-and-raisin cookies from Sainsbury’s on the way back from dropping the kids at school. And getting a flat white in a paper cup from the local Caffè Nero, these days, feels like a foreign holiday. You are richer in time, working from home, and richer in riches. The Pret tax really is, in a sense, a tax: a dent in personal income that benefits society. It’s plausibly suggested that the government’s enthusiasm for returning the drones to their hives at the first sign of the pandemic easing was motivated by terror that the town-centre economy would collapse. They wanted to save Pret A Manger — imagining that if more of the country’s white-collar salaries came to be salted away (or spent on heating homes) rather than leaking out through billions of popcorn bars and skinny lattes, a whole tranche of tax revenue and entry-level jobs would vanish. Perhaps they were right. 

 

And all of a sudden that London service economy goes- poof!

 

 

 

2 hours ago, maynardgravy said:

If ever anything needed completely nationalising, it's the railways 

Would not help, one way or another.

Its Labour cost from a heavily unionised workforce.

What would help would be automating the trains.

 

[Stuey]

2 minutes ago, spygirl said:

 

What would help would be automating the trains.

 

Get rid of all the "Priv" tickets, and the free rides for ex-employees and their families.

[Wight Flight]

Can't comment on London but Chicago is very, very quiet.

Really a very pleasant experience.

[ashestoashes]

33 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

Can't comment on London but Chicago is very, very quiet.

Really a very pleasant experience.

thought loads get shot every weekend, must have silencers

[spygirl]

Elite state school nicknamed the 'socialist Eton' is rated inadequate by Ofsted after student 'riot' reduced teacher to tears and staff staged walk-out over academy merger plans

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10905895/Elite-state-school-nicknamed-socialist-Eton-rated-inadequate-Ofsted-student-riot.html

I assume the little lefty bubbles, that they keep the oiks n darkies out of are popping now.

 

[JoeDavola]

On 06/05/2022 at 16:18, Stuey said:

Get rid of all the "Priv" tickets, and the free rides for ex-employees and their families.

Yup the NI trains are free for all pensioners, and the people who work on the trains get great pensions and unlimited free rail travel for their entire immediate family. 

[ccc]

On 23/04/2022 at 20:52, Bobthebuilder said:

If you can work from home 100%, then anyone can do your job anywhere in the world. Some of us have to use a spanner on a leaking pipe to earn our money, and you have to live close enough to make it worth while.

Incorrect. Visa rules and taxation. 

Skyscanner offer this as one of their perks to their staff when hiring. But it's only a maximum of two months per year. Don't know the details but it will be double taxation / visa type stuff. 

So even the companies wanting to "open up" to the rest of the world - can't actually do it. 

Unless they go through the whole sponsorship route - but that's always been there. And costs money and is a hassle. And they also have to move here. 

So no. Not at present anyway. 

[wherebee]

4 minutes ago, ccc said:

Incorrect. Visa rules and taxation. 

Skyscanner offer this as one of their perks to their staff when hiring. But it's only a maximum of two months per year. Don't know the details but it will be double taxation / visa type stuff. 

So even the companies wanting to "open up" to the rest of the world - can't actually do it. 

Unless they go through the whole sponsorship route - but that's always been there. And costs money and is a hassle. And they also have to move here. 

So no. Not at present anyway. 

Yes and no.

You can always be employed as a contractor/service supplier and avoid most of the cross border taxation issues....

[ccc]

1 minute ago, wherebee said:

Yes and no.

You can always be employed as a contractor/service supplier and avoid most of the cross border taxation issues....

Yes that's always possible but always has been.

It's not relevant in this whole "anyone else on the planet could do your job" debate. Not for 99% of the roles in question. 

And even then it's only for a very small % of those contracting too. 99% of those contracting for the likes of Lloyds or RBS etc have to be UK based. 

They need to set you up as an entire new "supplier" and it's an utter ballache. 

[spygirl]

Not only London, but London commuter towns too - 

The mystery of London’s missing money

If spending in the city centre is so down, why aren’t the suburbs doing better?

https://www.ft.com/content/9d629147-f2aa-41e8-9a8a-eccf8b9c0186

 

It is no secret that London experienced a particularly brutal pandemic. Since March 2020, businesses across the capital have lost the equivalent of about six months of the revenue they would normally expect from visits by UK customers following successive lockdowns.

The growth of working from home continues to weigh on the metropolis. But there is a mystery: where did all the money go? For the past six months, the FT has been looking at the recovery from the pandemic using a particular data set: a local spending database supplied by the Social Investment Business, a regeneration charity. The data shows the value of card transactions by a sample of UK consumers, logged by where a purchase happened.

 

Comments - 

Working in the city, I always buy lunch outside the office. Working at home, I eat at home.

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Risk Man

 

3 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to RichardR

Isn’t that the obvious answer. Not sure why the FT missed it.

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

3 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to RichardR

That’s obviously part of it, as I say. I assume you buy your lunch, and aren’t self-sufficient in romaine and wheat, so are replacing some interactions with shops with a delivery driver from the supermarket. But it’s such a big wedge!

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The-Clapham-Associate

 

3 HOURS AGO

 

Speaking from the viewpoint of a 20-something working 5 days a week in an office, but living in Zone 2, there seem to be a number of issues at play:

1. Inflation has added incremental costs to everything, the average cost of a to-go lunch (a salad, pre-made sushi etc) in the City is now near £8 where pre-pandemic it was £6/6.50. Add increased tube fares/coffees and the average city worker is easily spending an additional £15 a week As a result the number of people making lunches at home has risen, at least judging by the amount of tupperware in the office.

2. Rents continue to rise whilst salaries do not keep pace. I have friends being told of 15%+ rental increases. Couple that with energy price rises and people's discretionary spending plunges.

3. Staffing shortages in hospitality has made dining and even going out drinking a less pleasurable experiences. Poor service due to too few/inexperienced staff combined with higher prices for smaller portions and lessened quality. This applies both in Central London and out into the Zones.

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steve-king

 

4 HOURS AGO

(Edited)

 

Lots of good comment already, but one obvious one not yet mentioned is interest rates.

Home owning Londoners spend much more on their mortgages and are dramatically more vulnerable to rate rises than those outside London.

Each 1% on the base rate will mean £300/month in extra payments for some.

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

3 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to steve-king

That can be part of it looking ahead — but the timing is too early. There’s been a gap for ages.

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Italian_Owl

 

4 HOURS AGO

 

Everyone is much more careful with money. My salary has not increased in five years, but everything is more expensive. Before I almost didn’t care how much I was spending on a daily basis going to the office 4-5 days a week. Now I go one day and I freak out calculating how much is gone in transport, food and drinks.

After a trip to France I decided to try Paul in Canary Wharf, medium latte and croissant was 4.45£ (and croissant was a frozen one): they will never see me again. At the canteen at my working place (supposedly cheaper) we have Starbucks and the same is 4.70£! A pint of beer is above 6£. I’m reducing coffee and beer intake as a result. Those “businesses” can jump off a cliff as far as I am concerned.

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

3 HOURS AGO

(Edited)

 

reply In reply to Italian_Owl

My main point here was really: don’t assume the suburbs are booming, and why is the SE lagging the rest of the UK? So if you look at East Lothian, which has some posh Edinburgh suburbs, your counterpart looks like they’re saving on their expensive sandwich in town and spending it in their local high street. I’m curious why the SE is so different.

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Solution oriented

 

5 HOURS AGO

 

Two other factors to consider are the former London residents who have now left the UK all together (I know several) and the downturn in both business and leisure travel.

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

3 HOURS AGO

(Edited)

 

reply In reply to Solution oriented

Maybe a bit? But the population numbers don’t really match? If you pick a few areas with lots of commuters - or second-tier towns in the south east, and have a look in the widget, you’ll see it’s bigger than that. Brighton is fiddly to find in the gizmo, but look for Brighton and Hove?

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Munroval

 

6 HOURS AGO

 

Pre pandemic, some spending would be social, e.g. a drink with friends on a Friday evening before heading home. There is no comparable spending now, or not to the same level. Some of that social spending may have been at high "show off" prices in "places to be seen". Replacement Social Spending in the suburbs will be different, more casual.

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

3 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to Munroval

But also: just less of it?

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Emperor of Mankind

 

5 HOURS AGO

 

Surprised no one has mentioned tourism. Are the Chinese not only just re-emerging from their most recent lockdown?

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

4 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to Emperor of Mankind

This is UK cardholders only

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Reflector

 

6 HOURS AGO

 

Maybe 3.8 % of a big number is consistent with 9 % of a smaller number?

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

5 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to Reflector

The centre is huge! London overall is down.

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LondonReader

 

5 MINUTES AGO

 

Is it possible that people in the South East actually couldn’t really afford to work in London? Maybe they’ve used ‘excess’ cash from not commuting to pay down debt or increase savings. Rather than doing unnecessary spending locally that they were previously forced to do in London because of the nature of the commuting lifestyle.

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Alpine Observer

 

7 MINUTES AGO

 

If spending in the city centre is so down, why aren’t the suburbs doing better?

Because very many people didn't return to London surburbs, but back home to Poland, the Baltic States, etc.

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Just trying to keep up

 

5 HOURS AGO

 

Trickle down Russian money .

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trou

 

7 HOURS AGO

 

Inflation in food prices has also resulted in smaller portions, higher prices and cheaper/less premium raw materials in lunch places and restaurants. It's much easier to switch to providing your own lunch when the alternative is considerably less attractive.

 

Staffing problems also mean slower service and more queueing.

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Matt

 

20 MINUTES AGO

(Edited)

 

would be good to see some targeted inflation figures for casual eating/dining/drinking for London. It's at the point where

- pint + burger and chips in the pub: lucky to see more than a couple of quid change from £30

- 2 course dinner for two, with bottle of average wine in zone 2/3 bistro, £150-200

- lunch in zone 1 to-go, without drink or sides (and hungry by 4pm!): £8+

 

must be compounded inflation since 2020 around 20-25%. More to come. People don't spend because they can't afford to or don't want to pay those prices. Big crunch coming.

 

ditto the travel industry...

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Moomoo

 

22 MINUTES AGO

 

The slow de-landlordisation of the economy continues.

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Davie

 

24 MINUTES AGO

 

people are buying more online

Plus

 

Make a sandwich at home for less than £1 vs buy for £5 = 80% saving

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General Disarray

 

2 HOURS AGO

 

Well obvi when I’m working in the city, I buy lunch from Birleys et al and when I’m WFH I’m making it myself…

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Worldly Wiseman

 

2 HOURS AGO

 

The percentage changes don't tell us anything without knowing the quantum. Does the smaller percentage increase in suburban spending in total exceed, balance or undershoot the underspend in the centre? And if it undershoots is that because of missing tourists in the centre not because of a permanent shift to online spending? There needs to be some more analysis for this to be meaningful.

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

2 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to Worldly Wiseman

As I say, both London and the South East as a whole are down. And this is UK cardholder spending, so it’s not missing foreign tourists.

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Real Regulations

 

3 HOURS AGO

 

lot of senior finance roles in process of moving to more stable financial centres... end of school term.. lot of Chelsea BTL properties starting to empty.. formerly occupied by US/European "bankers". Expecting more sales to Asian buyers but less frequent occupation.

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

2 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to Real Regulations

But why is that weighing on Brighton, say? Or Epsom?

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Eduardo

 

5 HOURS AGO

 

This is such a weak article and not worthy of the FT. It ignores completely some obvious things, picked out below - cost of living crisis, work travel to London being replaced by online meetings, strikes, units of transaction vs value of transactions, tourism.....

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

3 HOURS AGO

(Edited)

 

reply In reply to Eduardo

Righty ho, so why does this affect parts of the south east which were sending commuters to London? Why are Brighton or Epsom down? Why does the missing wedge emerge in the south east before the inflation starts rising? Why is the north east pulling away? Why is the whole south east - including dormitory towns - following the same trajectories as city centres in the north?

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Just-a-chap

 

5 HOURS AGO

 

Where has the money gone ?

Energy & a huge shock on route.

On line ( as identified)

Vacation so overseas? The last Spanish Hurrah ?

Other Big Ticket items such as cars are much higher prices & the commuters have two years of train fares to spend allowing the purchase. Due for a sharp brake.

Inflation and Shrinkflation .

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Chris Cook - FT

 

FT

3 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to Just-a-chap

But why the regional differential? And it all starts a long time ago.

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Just-a-chap

 

3 HOURS AGO

 

reply In reply to Chris Cook - FT

I tried to suggest where the money has gone.

 

The difference between north and south ? Very hard to speculate being a softie southerner .

 

Maybe …. & very seriously . The north know how to party & won’t stop until they are slung out of the nightclub..

Maybe the recession has started & actually started in the south with people drawing their horns in more sharply.

The north and south never ever go hand in hand …. Look at house prices , they are a ripple usually starting in London and working outwards. Always , the Northern prices carry on rising even after London stops. Then reality bites.

I’m not at all sure , but seem to remember the North has a higher percentage of disposable income . Call it discretionary spend. This is due to high house prices , & monumental mortgages in the south & at some point a realignment of the amount of interest houseowners will pay will hurt the southern and only eventually , and to a lesser extent , the north. .

Finally maybe the number of people travelling MORE than an hour from London has significantly increased & with WFH being the norm are spending their money locally, just no longer living in the south east .

 

Anyway just my mutterings, I can’t claim to know.

 

[Option5]

8 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Not only London, but London commuter towns too - 

The mystery of London’s missing money

 How it used to be commuting:

If you commute from Brighton to London you buy a coffee and a newspaper at Brighton station or on the train.

When you get to London you buy another coffee and a mid morning snack.

At lunchtime you go out to eat.

On your commute home you buy another coffee in London.

When you get to Brighton you stop off at the pub or pick up something to eat on the way home.

How it is working from home:

Wake up, make a coffee.

Log in to work.

Mid morning snack = 3 chocolate hobnobs from a packet you bought for £1.69.

Lunchtime, make a sandwich.

End of the day log off.

Make your evening meal and open a bottle of wine.

Difference:

Food and drink bought at supermarket at relatively low prices.

No need to leave house so no impulse buys (pub, fancy coffee, Sandwich shops, cafe etc)

Much more free time and no dressing for work.

Do your own cooking, cleaning, washing, no need for dry cleaning, 

It's not rocket surgery 

[Hail the Tripod]

On 06/05/2022 at 16:15, spygirl said:

Then there are the incidental expenses. We could call it the “Pret tax”. You can’t really get lunch al desko for less than a tenner these days — not once you’ve supplemented your sandwich with a coffee, a packet of crisps, a yoghurt pot, one of those nice popcorn bars and, if peckish, another sandwich. There’ll be the coffee in the morning on your way in, obviously, too. Plus a croissant to keep your strength up. Perhaps an afternoon run for a cup of Assam, or pints after work with colleagues.

Irritates the shit out of me the way “activist” journos call the most avoidable, self-indulgent spending the “x” tax. The pret tax can be avoided with a couple of sandwiches in a Tupperware box, or if you are really extravagant, with a thermos pot.

It’s like the fucking pink tax. If paying more for pink razors bugs, don’t demand legislation, just buy the fucking blue ones.

The problem isn’t the cost of the supposed Pret taxes. The problem is all the actual taxes!!!

[Bornagain]

5 hours ago, Option5 said:

 How it used to be commuting:

If you commute from Brighton to London you buy a coffee and a newspaper at Brighton station or on the train.

When you get to London you buy another coffee and a mid morning snack.

At lunchtime you go out to eat.

On your commute home you buy another coffee in London.

When you get to Brighton you stop off at the pub or pick up something to eat on the way home.

How it is working from home:

Wake up, make a coffee.

Log in to work.

Mid morning snack = 3 chocolate hobnobs from a packet you bought for £1.69.

Lunchtime, make a sandwich.

End of the day log off.

Make your evening meal and open a bottle of wine.

Difference:

Food and drink bought at supermarket at relatively low prices.

No need to leave house so no impulse buys (pub, fancy coffee, Sandwich shops, cafe etc)

Much more free time and no dressing for work.

Do your own cooking, cleaning, washing, no need for dry cleaning, 

It's not rocket surgery 

It really is blindingly obvious, the general population are becoming tight-arsed DOSBODers.

[MrPin]

On 06/05/2022 at 13:59, maynardgravy said:

If ever anything needed completely nationalising, it's the railways 

Well it was, then it wasn't.

[Yadda yadda yadda]

No-one responding to that FT article appears to have mentioned that a much higher proportion of people in the south east work in office based jobs. That means a higher percentage still working from home. Making your lunch at home now saves them time as well as money. Average of perhaps a 10 minutes walk each direction to get something to eat from home. When in an office people want to get out at lunch to get away. Likely a big choice within 5 minutes. Making a packed lunch took time when people least had it, first thing in the morning. Much less need to get away from home. If there is a desire to do so it will be for exercise or to walk around the park. Many would prefer to sit in their garden for a while.

Perhaps they should ask the question, why did workers spend money to eat out? The answer is convenience. A year of saving that money puts that convenience in perspective. Working from home reverses the convenience equation. Elsewhere in the country a higher proportion never worked from home and a lower proportion ate lunch out to start with.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Yadda yadda yadda

[dgul]

I've been in London the last couple of days.

Busiest I've ever seen it wrt tourism.  Lots of Americans, far east, Europeans.

But lots of the people I'm working with (gov) are still WFH because of covid and came in for the meet.

Seems like a strange combination.

[Yadda yadda yadda]

35 minutes ago, dgul said:

I've been in London the last couple of days.

Busiest I've ever seen it wrt tourism.  Lots of Americans, far east, Europeans.

But lots of the people I'm working with (gov) are still WFH because of covid and came in for the meet.

Seems like a strange combination.

I was out on Monday night. Busy for a Monday. Very few fat people. Like going back in time 20 years. Except for the prices. I mostly noticed European tourists.

UK seen as one of the most open post-covid developed nations. No entry restrictions, no masking rules and no noticeable masking at all in central London excluding a few on the tube. Very attractive for people who want to travel by plane. Plus the strong dollar makes it cheap for Americans.

Although you would have thought Heathrow passenger number restrictions would limit tourism a bit. Perhaps less business travel more than offsets fewer flights?

A lot of Government staff will be long distance train commuters. They will fight tooth and nail to avoid using those awful trains.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Yadda yadda yadda

[A tremendous # on the lung]

3 hours ago, dgul said:

I've been in London the last couple of days.

Busiest I've ever seen it wrt tourism.  Lots of Americans, far east, Europeans.

But lots of the people I'm working with (gov) are still WFH because of covid and came in for the meet.

Seems like a strange combination.

They're not WFH due to COVID. It's cos they can't be arsed to go in. And I don't blame them, neither can i

[Errol]

People are WFH because it's much nicer and saves loads of time and money. Nothing to do with Covid for most people.