The Big Short Time and Furnished Holiday Let thread ...

[spygirl]

One thing you notice about seaside town is the number of guest house and BnBs perma-listed i nthe EAs and local business For Sale sites.

Just cant shift them,, BnBs being a lifestyle bizzyness that soon turns out to be an chain round neck and bought during periods of credit expansion.

Im starting to notice the number of FHLs For Sale creep up. A lot.

People buying FHLs is a newish thing. The numbers poured in durting ZIRP and the start of S24 - Missed out of BTL?  Friends laughing at your lack of properdee investments??? Try a FHL instead!!!!

 

 

[One percent]

1 hour ago, spygirl said:

One thing you notice about seaside town is the number of guest house and BnBs perma-listed i nthe EAs and local business For Sale sites.

Just cant shift them,, BnBs being a lifestyle bizzyness that soon turns out to be an chain round neck and bought during periods of credit expansion.

Im starting to notice the number of FHLs For Sale creep up. A lot.

People buying FHLs is a newish thing. The numbers poured in durting ZIRP and the start of S24 - Missed out of BTL?  Friends laughing at your lack of properdee investments??? Try a FHL instead!!!!

 

 

Not to worry, there’s always another wessie scratter wanting to live the dream.  Soon offload to them.  
me and my mate were in town last summer and got talking to a bloke looking in the estate agent window. He couldn’t quite believe he was actually talking to a couple of locals.  

[spygirl]

10 minutes ago, One percent said:

Not to worry, there’s always another wessie scratter wanting to live the dream.  Soon offload to them.  
me and my mate were in town last summer and got talking to a bloke looking in the estate agent window. He couldn’t quite believe he was actually talking to a couple of locals.  

There might be.

But the banks aint lending to them.

 

[One percent]

27 minutes ago, spygirl said:

There might be.

But the banks aint lending to them.

 

But we love Whitby. It’s are favourite spot. It’s are home away from home.  

[spygirl]

And we are off ...

Government to outline new curbs on short-term lets in England

Local residents being pushed out of tourist hotspots prompts response

 

https://www.ft.com/content/67e1d19d-5a70-4f99-b9d9-541fc5316a46

New curbs on short-term property rentals in England will be unveiled by the UK government on Monday, despite warnings from estate agents and tourism chiefs that the move could dent local economies.

Michael Gove, Levelling Up secretary, will announce plans to force second-home owners to seek planning permission for short-term lets in future, alongside the creation of a mandatory national register of short-term rental properties.

There are two changes that will both fuckup FHLs.

Making FHL go for planning is one.

@One percent there is no way any FH on places like the Railway will get planing - no parking, total fucking nuisance.

The LA planning guideline are going to require at least one private parking place for each FHL.

Kabom! FHL in  most of Whitby, Runwick and Bay fucked up.

And, no, Labour wont reverse these rules.

Next change, wgic is coming -

Untweak SBRR for DFL so they are back paying business rates - 2x yo 3x ctax.

FHL dont pay *ANY* tax.

They are businesses, so pay rates. However SBRR means most get under the limit and get 100% SBRR

Lucian Cook, head of UK residential research at estate agent Savills, conceded the short-term rental market had taken much needed housing stock out of the private rental sector.

“On that basis, local authorities will welcome the requirement for planning consent in the future, though this could place a short-term burden on already constrained resources,” he said.

He added that in the longer term, the reforms could create a “two-tier market” between properties with and without planning consent for short-term lets, and stressed that more housebuilding was crucial to ensuring affordable supply for local residents.

 

Amanda Cupples, northern Europe general manager at Airbnb, welcomed the creation of the national short-term lets register. “Families who host on Airbnb will benefit from clear rules that support their activity, and local authorities will get access to the information they need to assess and manage housing impacts and keep communities healthy, where necessary,” she said.

AirBNB a la BnB in the minority. Most AirBNB are not family houses i.e. no one lvies in them.

Existing dedicated short-term lets will not require a planning application.

Yeah but - they cant be sold as ST: now. Fucked.

 

The changes will not affect hotels, hostels or B&Bs.

Shadow housing minister Matthew Pennycook told the Financial Times last December that Labour also wanted to hand local communities new powers to combat “excessive concentrations” of second homes or holiday lets to boost the economy in those areas.

 

 

[One percent]

17 minutes ago, spygirl said:

And we are off ...

Government to outline new curbs on short-term lets in England

Local residents being pushed out of tourist hotspots prompts response

 

https://www.ft.com/content/67e1d19d-5a70-4f99-b9d9-541fc5316a46

New curbs on short-term property rentals in England will be unveiled by the UK government on Monday, despite warnings from estate agents and tourism chiefs that the move could dent local economies.

Michael Gove, Levelling Up secretary, will announce plans to force second-home owners to seek planning permission for short-term lets in future, alongside the creation of a mandatory national register of short-term rental properties.

There are two changes that will both fuckup FHLs.

Making FHL go for planning is one.

@One percent there is no way any FH on places like the Railway will get planing - no parking, total fucking nuisance.

The LA planning guideline are going to require at least one private parking place for each FHL.

Kabom! FHL in  most of Whitby, Runwick and Bay fucked up.

And, no, Labour wont reverse these rules.

Next change, wgic is coming -

Untweak SBRR for DFL so they are back paying business rates - 2x yo 3x ctax.

FHL dont pay *ANY* tax.

They are businesses, so pay rates. However SBRR means most get under the limit and get 100% SBRR

Lucian Cook, head of UK residential research at estate agent Savills, conceded the short-term rental market had taken much needed housing stock out of the private rental sector.

“On that basis, local authorities will welcome the requirement for planning consent in the future, though this could place a short-term burden on already constrained resources,” he said.

He added that in the longer term, the reforms could create a “two-tier market” between properties with and without planning consent for short-term lets, and stressed that more housebuilding was crucial to ensuring affordable supply for local residents.

 

Amanda Cupples, northern Europe general manager at Airbnb, welcomed the creation of the national short-term lets register. “Families who host on Airbnb will benefit from clear rules that support their activity, and local authorities will get access to the information they need to assess and manage housing impacts and keep communities healthy, where necessary,” she said.

AirBNB a la BnB in the minority. Most AirBNB are not family houses i.e. no one lvies in them.

Existing dedicated short-term lets will not require a planning application.

Yeah but - they cant be sold as ST: now. Fucked.

 

The changes will not affect hotels, hostels or B&Bs.

Shadow housing minister Matthew Pennycook told the Financial Times last December that Labour also wanted to hand local communities new powers to combat “excessive concentrations” of second homes or holiday lets to boost the economy in those areas.

 

 

I have a feeling they will fuck it up not knowing what they are doing and taking advice from morons at the council.  Look at the wording carefully,  force second-home owners to seek planning permission for short-term lets in future, alongside the creation of a mandatory national register of short-term rental properties.  as always the devil is in the detail. Does this mean that if a property is already a fhl, it will be exempt?  Who knows?  
then, there is a real danger that they will develop two distinct and separate types of property when it comes to sales. Oh, those cheap things are for the plebs, whilst the nice houses with sea views will be visited by the rich on occasion.   
im not saying it’s a bad thing and something needs doing.  Im just saying, going by government track record, i can easily see them making matters worse. A lot worse. 
anyhow, im off to a meeting tonight to discuss developing a town plan.  Im going to try and ward off the nuttiness. The woman leading on it is wanting to go all Welsh with 20 mile an hour zones and cycle lanes.   

[InLikeFlynn]

7 minutes ago, One percent said:

Look at the wording carefully,  force second-home owners to seek planning permission for short-term lets in future, alongside the creation of a mandatory national register of short-term rental properties.  as always the devil is in the detail. Does this mean that if a property is already a fhl, it will be exempt?

Yes. 

They won't make it retrospective. 

On a more positive note I suspect FHLs will soon be made liable for council tax.

[One percent]

8 minutes ago, InLikeFlynn said:

Yes. 

They won't make it retrospective. 

On a more positive note I suspect FHLs will soon be made liable for council tax.

Goid because the people staying in the property will impact on the town and incur costs, even if it’s just putting bits of rubbish in bins.  What really gets me here is that the centre of town is residents parking. As i live outside of that immediate area, I'm not allowed to park. Yet they give scratch cards to tourists which allows them to use the parking.  Yet they pay nothing in. Madness.  

[spygirl]

51 minutes ago, One percent said:

I have a feeling they will fuck it up not knowing what they are doing and taking advice from morons at the council.  Look at the wording carefully,  force second-home owners to seek planning permission for short-term lets in future, alongside the creation of a mandatory national register of short-term rental properties.  as always the devil is in the detail. Does this mean that if a property is already a fhl, it will be exempt?  Who knows?  
then, there is a real danger that they will develop two distinct and separate types of property when it comes to sales. Oh, those cheap things are for the plebs, whilst the nice houses with sea views will be visited by the rich on occasion.   
im not saying it’s a bad thing and something needs doing.  Im just saying, going by government track record, i can easily see them making matters worse. A lot worse. 
anyhow, im off to a meeting tonight to discuss developing a town plan.  Im going to try and ward off the nuttiness. The woman leading on it is wanting to go all Welsh with 20 mile an hour zones and cycle lanes.   

Not really.

The planning process will open/subservient to local residents.

Parking is the thing that always comes up.

Something simple like - 1 parking space for each 2 bedrooms will do.

bear in mind that York has a problem with AirBNB in the same way Whitby does with FHL.

FHL + AirBNB are not popular with local councillor's and residents.

In terms of retrospective planning./ Not needed and would slow down and complicate process.

Just requiring anyone buying a nexisting FHL to require getting planning would do it.

The ew banks - Leeds n CUmberland BS's - that have been lending to FHL are fucked.

Fucklwittery liek this was too littelt too late - 

https://www.leedsbuildingsociety.co.uk/intermediaries/news/2022/withdrawal-from-second-homes-lending/#:~:text=Leeds Building Society is withdrawing,people onto the housing ladder.

Leeds is very ver yexposed to FHL and 2nd homes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spygirl]

46 minutes ago, InLikeFlynn said:

Yes. 

They won't make it retrospective. 

On a more positive note I suspect FHLs will soon be made liable for council tax.

FHL are commercial ventures.

Council tax is for residential.

Se estart of thread.

FHL have always been liable for rates, which run ~2x-3x ctax.

However they got releif from SBRR, so they paid fuck all.

The Treasury was reviewing SBRR for FDHL just before coof came and upset everything.

That change has been parked rather than forgotten.

Theres so much missing revenue for FHL that UKGOV is going to go after it, hard.

 

 

[AWW]

55 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Just requiring anyone buying a nexisting FHL to require getting planning would do it.

This is what they will do.  If you're doing it at the moment, carry on (oh and pay more tax).  Think you're going to get paid a premium when selling due to having PP for your FHL?  No chance.

[spygirl]

15 minutes ago, AWW said:

This is what they will do.  If you're doing it at the moment, carry on (oh and pay more tax).  Think you're going to get paid a premium when selling due to having PP for your FHL?  No chance.

[One percent]

2 hours ago, spygirl said:

Not really.

The planning process will open/subservient to local residents.

Parking is the thing that always comes up.

Something simple like - 1 parking space for each 2 bedrooms will do.

bear in mind that York has a problem with AirBNB in the same way Whitby does with FHL.

FHL + AirBNB are not popular with local councillor's and residents.

In terms of retrospective planning./ Not needed and would slow down and complicate process.

Just requiring anyone buying a nexisting FHL to require getting planning would do it.

The ew banks - Leeds n CUmberland BS's - that have been lending to FHL are fucked.

Fucklwittery liek this was too littelt too late - 

https://www.leedsbuildingsociety.co.uk/intermediaries/news/2022/withdrawal-from-second-homes-lending/#:~:text=Leeds Building Society is withdrawing,people onto the housing ladder.

Leeds is very ver yexposed to FHL and 2nd homes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone borrowing money for a second home needs their head felt, it’s an absolute money pit.  Those lending on them are even dafter.  

[spygirl]

23 minutes ago, One percent said:

Anyone borrowing money for a second home needs their head felt, it’s an absolute money pit.  Those lending on them are even dafter.  

Yeah bit think of the £££££££££££

Gidiot, back in 2014ish, slashed stamp duty.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/03/george-osborne-stamp-duty-overhaul-autumn-statement

This was a trick devised by UKGOV n BoE to spread the fuckwittery, getting some of the IO investment stuff of the IO BTL morons and putting them onto people with a bit more equity/less exposure to housing.

This was followed by S24, aimed at getting the idiots off IO mortgages.

With S24 there was a lot of 'advisors' going - Oh, UKGOV is taxing IO BTL. Invest in FHL! There are sooo many tax advantages.

And in piled the cretins from 2016ish.

The pile into FHL was not expected. They prob assumed that no bank would expand their lending.

They did not count on the stupidity of Leeds BS and Cumberland BS.

Nowe, a lot of better cpitlsied morons Mom n Pops did get 1 or 2 BTLs. And regrestted it to this day.

FHL is much much smaller. But i nthe palces which have it, thers lots.

I would guess sales for FHL  counted for 50%+ of Whitby property sales from 2016 to today.

The attitude was - We missed out on BTL. Lets not miss out of FHL ....

And it looks possible - providing IO stay in ZIRP.

They didnt.

And the UK economy doesnt slowdown, so people stop having home holidays.

It did. And they stopped.

Now FHJL are stuck with much higher IRs. No banks willing to lend.  And now more restrictions on FHL.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[One percent]

And the announcement is public. As we said, it wouldn’t be retrospective. Horse, door bolt etc.    what’s interesting though and it will put the cat amongst the pigeons in a way is that there is to be a compulsory register.   The rules, afaiaa, is that if holiday homes go above 20 percent, it triggers something as it’s deemed to be a problem (sorry for the vagueness but i can’t find the legislation but have been told this).  Scabby council as was said that it was only 19 percent of property so they didn’t have to do anything.  A local pressure group, using mainly council tax and electoral role registers put the figure approach 30 percent. They won’t be able to hide as easily. However, it seems second homes are excluded, it’s only if you fhl it.  
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68335939

[spygirl]

4 hours ago, One percent said:

And the announcement is public. As we said, it wouldn’t be retrospective. Horse, door bolt etc.    what’s interesting though and it will put the cat amongst the pigeons in a way is that there is to be a compulsory register.   The rules, afaiaa, is that if holiday homes go above 20 percent, it triggers something as it’s deemed to be a problem (sorry for the vagueness but i can’t find the legislation but have been told this).  Scabby council as was said that it was only 19 percent of property so they didn’t have to do anything.  A local pressure group, using mainly council tax and electoral role registers put the figure approach 30 percent. They won’t be able to hide as easily. However, it seems second homes are excluded, it’s only if you fhl it.  
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68335939

 

 

Scarborough has seen a sharp increase in the number of holiday lets in recent years

 

 

 

Saw that.

In true BBC stylee ... the BBC have fucked it up.

Scarborough borough has seen a sharp increase in FHLS.

SBC is Filey to Runswick.

There are very few FHL in Scabby. And the number has been pretty stable.

Whitby + district, Runswick, and Filey have been swamped in the last ~10 years.

[spygirl]

Long overdue and not tough enough.

Massive tax increases on holiday let's/Air BnB are needed asap

Reply

 

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  Reply posted by MarkG, today at 16:26MarkG

  16:26

  to FTSE 250 Boss

  "

  Long overdue and not tough enough.Massive tax increases on holiday let's/Air BnB are needed asap

  "

  MarkG replied:

  or just some tax. I wonder how many Air BnB owners are paying income tax?

  Reply

   

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  Reply posted by GrannyV, today at 16:50GrannyV

  16:50

  to FTSE 250 Boss

  "

  Long overdue and not tough enough.Massive tax increases on holiday let's/Air BnB are needed asap

  "

  GrannyV replied:

  What about those people who let part of their property through Airbnb or similar to supplement, say, their state pension and have no other, or very little other, income? This could mean that they will have to rely on benefits rather than being able to make just about enough to live on.

  Reply

   

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  Reply posted by GrannyV, today at 16:51GrannyV

  16:51

  to MarkG

  "

  or just some tax. I wonder how many Air BnB owners are paying income tax?

  "

  GrannyV replied:

  We let a part of our property as a holiday let to supplement a state pension and two very small occupational pensions and don't make enough to qualify for paying tax!

 

 

Hmm ... UK state pension is not far off IT limit.

Add a private pension and icme fro ma poorly performing FHL call it 6k/y, and youll be well over tax threshold.

 

 

[One percent]

10 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Long overdue and not tough enough.

Massive tax increases on holiday let's/Air BnB are needed asap

 

Reply

 

 

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  Reply posted by MarkG, today at 16:26MarkG

  16:26

  to FTSE 250 Boss

  "

  Long overdue and not tough enough.Massive tax increases on holiday let's/Air BnB are needed asap

  "

  MarkG replied:

  or just some tax. I wonder how many Air BnB owners are paying income tax?

   

  Reply

   

   

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  Reply posted by GrannyV, today at 16:50GrannyV

  16:50

  to FTSE 250 Boss

  "

  Long overdue and not tough enough.Massive tax increases on holiday let's/Air BnB are needed asap

  "

  GrannyV replied:

  What about those people who let part of their property through Airbnb or similar to supplement, say, their state pension and have no other, or very little other, income? This could mean that they will have to rely on benefits rather than being able to make just about enough to live on.

   

  Reply

   

   

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  Reply posted by GrannyV, today at 16:51GrannyV

  16:51

  to MarkG

  "

  or just some tax. I wonder how many Air BnB owners are paying income tax?

  "

  GrannyV replied:

  We let a part of our property as a holiday let to supplement a state pension and two very small occupational pensions and don't make enough to qualify for paying tax!

 

 

Hmm ... UK state pension is not far off IT limit.

Add a private pension and icme fro ma poorly performing FHL call it 6k/y, and youll be well over tax threshold.

 

 

I am fed up with people telling me that tourism is a ‘good thing’.  Well, yes and no. More on the side of no.  They won’t even entertain a discussion around it. It’s just good. You know they are trying to scrat a living from it. You know that they are white settlers. They don’t know of or care about the community that it’s ripped the heart out of.   

[spygirl]

14 minutes ago, One percent said:

I am fed up with people telling me that tourism is a ‘good thing’.  Well, yes and no. More on the side of no.  They won’t even entertain a discussion around it. It’s just good. You know they are trying to scrat a living from it. You know that they are white settlers. They don’t know of or care about the community that it’s ripped the heart out of.   

Again,

Tourism when people come and stay in hotels and BnB is a mild plus for an area.

Hotels n Bnb pay rates aor nd council. And they tend to not overlap with housing used by residents.

Tourism when its day trippers or scratters who pile into a FHL, which has no private parking . Massive negative.

At the mo, most FHL  pay *NO* tax.

They also remove public spending/head from a town as the houses are not occupied by a FT resident.

A FHL that could house mum n dad n 2 kids removes ctax (2k/y) and ~30k/y of public services from the area.

 

 

 

[One percent]

14 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Again,

Tourism when people come and stay in hotels and BnB is a mild plus for an area.

Hotels n Bnb pay rates aor nd council. And they tend to not overlap with housing used by residents.

Tourism when its day trippers or scratters who pile into a FHL, which has no private parking . Massive negative.

At the mo, most FHL  pay *NO* tax.

They also remove public spending/head from a town as the houses are not occupied by a FT resident.

A FHL that could house mum n dad n 2 kids removes ctax (2k/y) and ~30k/y of public services from the area.

 

 

 

Exactly the problem, summed up well. Don’t forget the feral scratters in camper vans, pissing and shitting in the streets. 🤮

[leonardratso]

3 hours ago, One percent said:

Exactly the problem, summed up well. Don’t forget the feral scratters in camper vans, pissing and shitting in the streets. 🤮

you can get a grant you know, for an indoor shitter. But some people just like it al fresco i suppose, still its only whitby, no one will notice.

[Wight Flight]

23 hours ago, One percent said:

Goid because the people staying in the property will impact on the town and incur costs, even if it’s just putting bits of rubbish in bins.  What really gets me here is that the centre of town is residents parking. As i live outside of that immediate area, I'm not allowed to park. Yet they give scratch cards to tourists which allows them to use the parking.  Yet they pay nothing in. Madness.  

FHL properties have to pay for private bin collections here.

[One percent]

Just now, Wight Flight said:

FHL properties have to pay for private bin collections here.

Depends on whether it’s being run as a business. I was thinking more about public bins though.  Fish and chip wrappers etc.  the bins are often overflowing and emptied on a regular basis. Someone has to pay for that service.  

[Wight Flight]

1 minute ago, One percent said:

Depends on whether it’s being run as a business. I was thinking more about public bins though.  Fish and chip wrappers etc.  the bins are often overflowing and emptied on a regular basis. Someone has to pay for that service.  

But the tax on the fish and chip shops would cover the cost of the bins.

 

[One percent]

9 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

But the tax on the fish and chip shops would cover the cost of the bins.

 

Most of that goes to central government.