The Big Short Time and Furnished Holiday Let thread ...

[spygirl]

24 minutes ago, One percent said:

You've not been in the old part of Shitby or down the bottom of bay bank recently have you?   

Relative to the rest of the housing stock.

Its a simple tax.

They need to be filing accounts via an accountant.

Most are advertised via an agency, who take the money.

Most people will pay via cheque/money transfer/non cash in hand.

If you say youve done 120 days letting then you better have a traceable chain for all those lets.

 

 

 

 

[spygirl]

1 hour ago, belfastchild said:

Yes, I was just about to post that. 'Heres what we say you owe us based on everyone else in your industry, you have 21 days to pay or set up a suitable payment plan' End of.

Mentioned before about getting a letter about payment owed with 21 days to pay even though the letter was dated 7 days before it came through my letterbox. Their mistake. I still had to pay it and put in a written complaint which would take 2 weeks to assess... although 4 months later they did pay me back but did go over my last 7 years accounts just to check 'they' hadnt made a similar mistake in the past. Genuinely that pause in the conversation was one of the longest 20 seconds or so in my life. Really didnt take in the first part of him explaining I was ok.

I know two people who have been forced to sell the house then bankrupted by them. They were fiddling mind but in the end that part of it didnt really matter, thats just what got them in in the first place. They probably could have paid back what they owed with selling houses/stuff etc but the fines/interest where what did for them. To be fair to HMRC, they did make a proper example of them as Im here posting about it some 15-20 years on. Both guys touching 60 now with not a pot to piss in.

less the fines, more the limited time to pay.

I know of a handful of FHL whove had run ins.

Even using an accountant. who kept them on straight n narrow, they still had issues.

 

[With a crooked smile]

7 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

No. But your pissed off neighbours do.

At least they do round here.

Got any examples from the press. I bet no one can find any. The chance of it happening in close to zero.

[belfastchild]

3 minutes ago, With a crooked smile said:

Got any examples from the press. I bet no one can find any. The chance of it happening in close to zero.

Not the same but you can check the insolvency registers online as they are public documents.

I check out new prospective clients and those women I want to go on a second date with ;-)

Theres also this for the latest ones...
https://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/IESdatabase/viewbrobrusummary-new.asp

Click on a few details to find recent ones HMRC have hit hard. Looks like they have finally got round to doing a number on bounce back loan fraud.

[spygirl]

Hunt says he will abolish the furnished holiday lettings regime.

Thats a small sentence potentially huge meanings.

 

 

[Wight Flight]

1 hour ago, spygirl said:

Hunt says he will abolish the furnished holiday lettings regime.

Thats a small sentence potentially huge meanings.

 

 

Agreed.

If they remove every perk, a 40% taxpayer with a £200k FHL loan will be down best part of £5k per year. If they add council tax as well that could rise to £7,500.

Destroys the business plan.

[One percent]

1 hour ago, spygirl said:

Hunt says he will abolish the furnished holiday lettings regime.

Thats a small sentence potentially huge meanings.

 

 

What does that mean though?   

[spygirl]

4 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

Agreed.

If they remove every perk, a 40% taxpayer with a £200k FHL loan will be down best part of £5k per year. If they add council tax as well that could rise to £7,500.

Destroys the business plan.

Now this is where things get interesting.

The Treasury have been after SBRR for FHL since Gidiots increase.

If they remove SBRR for FHL, which Id count as ' part of the FHL regime', then they'll have an extra 3x c tax to pay.

If they also remove all the allowances and what not then thats lot of cash to fork out.

As it stands,, theyll soon need planning. They wont grandfather FHL, so youll need to apply for planning if you buy an existing FHL.

One ofthe two banks that did FL lending, York BS, has stopped lending N coast.

Id guess the other,Cumberland, has just done the same but quietly.

FHL have gone form being a pretty much pure play of HP - they really make fuck all letting them out if they have any mortgage cost.

They now face the same buy a hefty cash bill too.

Need to see the exact new rules.

 

 

 

[spygirl]

5 minutes ago, One percent said:

What does that mean though?   

Its not good.

Its probably expensive.

It has the potential to be devastating for the sector.

Think equivalent to S24 for IO BTL.

 

 

 

[One percent]

2 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Its not good.

Its probably expensive.

It has the potential to be devastating for the sector.

Think equivalent to S24 for IO BTL.

 

 

 

I found this

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spring-budget-2024-overview-of-tax-legislation-and-rates-ootlar/spring-budget-2024-overview-of-tax-legislation-and-rates-ootlar

2.7 Abolition of the Furnished Holiday Lettings (FHL) tax regime

As announced at Spring Budget 2024, the government will abolish the Furnished Holiday Lettings tax regime, eliminating the tax advantage for landlords who let out short-term furnished holiday properties over those who let out residential properties to longer-term tenants. This will take effect from April 2025.

Draft legislation will be published in due course and include an anti-forestalling rule. This will prevent the obtaining of a tax advantage through the use of unconditional contracts to obtain capital gains relief under the current FHL rules. This rule will apply from 6 March 2024.

 

[One percent]

Found some more details  it seems madness that your mortgage payments attract tax relief 

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/news/2024/03/06/spring-budget-2024-everything-you-need-to-know/

The furnished holiday lets (FHL) regime, which offers tax advantages to those who let out a property as a holiday home, will be abolished in April 2025. Budget documents said this would raise £600mn by 2028-29.

Hunt said this is because holiday lets reduce the availability of long-term rentals for residents. At the moment, landlords who use the furnished holiday lets regime can deduct the full cost of their mortgage interest payments from their rental income and (potentially) pay lower capital gains tax when they sell. About 127,000 properties in the UK are registered under the FHL regime. VC
 

 

 

[One percent]

A disaster for the tourist industry is a positive result for everyone else.  It seems that the average daily mail reader is also in agreement with this statement 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13164529/anger-holiday-let-owners-jeremy-hunt-budget.html

Holiday let owners today complained they could lose more than £10,000 a year after Jeremy Hunt slashed the financial perks they enjoy to pay for his National Insurance cuts.

The Chancellor announced he would abolish the furnished holiday lettings (FHL) regime, which gives tax relief for costs incurred kitting out more than 70,000 holiday lets, as well as ending Stamp Duty relief on multiple properties. 

He estimates that the reduction will bring in £300million for Treasury coffers, but critics today warned it would hammer areas reliant on tourism for their income by pushing people out of the market. 
 

Alistair Handyside owns Higher Wiscombe, a group of luxury holiday cottages in East Devon, and also runs the Professional Association of Self-Caterers.

He told MailOnline: 'I'm very disappointed - these were hard fought for as a set of allowances to help small businesses and they've been removed with a single sentence with no justification or explanation about what will come next.
 

 

 

[AWW]

Muh small business

[spygirl]

13 minutes ago, One percent said:

A disaster for the tourist industry is a positive result for everyone else.  It seems that the average daily mail reader is also in agreement with this statement 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13164529/anger-holiday-let-owners-jeremy-hunt-budget.html

Holiday let owners today complained they could lose more than £10,000 a year after Jeremy Hunt slashed the financial perks they enjoy to pay for his National Insurance cuts.

The Chancellor announced he would abolish the furnished holiday lettings (FHL) regime, which gives tax relief for costs incurred kitting out more than 70,000 holiday lets, as well as ending Stamp Duty relief on multiple properties. 

He estimates that the reduction will bring in £300million for Treasury coffers, but critics today warned it would hammer areas reliant on tourism for their income by pushing people out of the market. 
 

Alistair Handyside owns Higher Wiscombe, a group of luxury holiday cottages in East Devon, and also runs the Professional Association of Self-Caterers.

He told MailOnline: 'I'm very disappointed - these were hard fought for as a set of allowances to help small businesses and they've been removed with a single sentence with no justification or explanation about what will come next.
 

 

 

Chris and Vicky Saynor, both 48, estimate that their holiday let business will lose more than £10,000 a year now that FHL tax breaks are disappearing. 

'It's disastrous for us professionals,' Mr Saynor explained. 'With the higher rate of Capital Gains tax relief, it feels like a budget for wealthy second home owners against small businesses like us that actually provide services for people.'

The couple started their business Bethnal and Bec in 2017 after buying an old house in Hertfordshire for their family of six that contained several outbuildings, which the Saynors decided to turn into short term holiday lets.

As well as these buildings, which they now rent out as luxury adult-only holiday accommodation, the couple are currently renovating a bungalow in Suffolk.

For the Saynors, their holiday let business is their full-time job – a fact that they think the Government is failing to consider.

'We're not second-home owners,' Mr Saynor explained. 'A lot of us are professional accommodation providers.

'But they're not treating the sector as a business – they're treating us as a bunch of individuals with extra, unused second properties.'

Ting is, theres nothing to stop them running it as a LtdCo rather than as a FHL.

 

 

 

[One percent]

5 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Chris and Vicky Saynor, both 48, estimate that their holiday let business will lose more than £10,000 a year now that FHL tax breaks are disappearing. 

'It's disastrous for us professionals,' Mr Saynor explained. 'With the higher rate of Capital Gains tax relief, it feels like a budget for wealthy second home owners against small businesses like us that actually provide services for people.'

The couple started their business Bethnal and Bec in 2017 after buying an old house in Hertfordshire for their family of six that contained several outbuildings, which the Saynors decided to turn into short term holiday lets.

As well as these buildings, which they now rent out as luxury adult-only holiday accommodation, the couple are currently renovating a bungalow in Suffolk.

For the Saynors, their holiday let business is their full-time job – a fact that they think the Government is failing to consider.

'We're not second-home owners,' Mr Saynor explained. 'A lot of us are professional accommodation providers.

'But they're not treating the sector as a business – they're treating us as a bunch of individuals with extra, unused second properties.'

Ting is, theres nothing to stop them running it as a LtdCo rather than as a FHL.

 

 

 

Why should they get tax breaks such as off their mortgage repayments and anything they spend on furniture and the like.  

[spygirl]

6 minutes ago, One percent said:

Why should they get tax breaks such as off their mortgage repayments and anything they spend on furniture and the like.  

Well thats sort of it.

As a normal LtdCo FHL is just not viable.

Thats why FHL exist as a very strange, stand apart classification by UKGOV/HMRC and has so many allowances n this and that.

id love to know the history about UK FHL legal/allowance.

My guess at some point, a long time ago, UKGOV, were worried about coastal/country towns turning into direcily slums, so devised a way of letting someone run a very low yielding business.

Then we had IO BTL, who then piled into FHL and turned it into a massive nuisance.

Depending where you live, FHL has been a problem since ~2000ish.

And FHL has now created the situation is was probably created to avoid - empty rural villages.

 

 

 

[spygirl]

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/13338595

Incorporated on

15 April 2021

SAYNOR, Christopher Alan

Correspondence address

Nottinghams, Cottered, Buntingford, England, SG9 9PU

Role ACTIVE

Director

Date of birth

December 1975

Appointed on

15 April 2021

Nationality

British

Country of residence

England

Occupation

Co-Ceo

[spygirl]

On 08/05/2023 at 14:55, sancho panza said:

You msut be pyshcihc I was jsut about to come on and psot up on ref IO mrotgages and FHL

I've been runing over the cumberlands books a couple of times the last week and have to say soem 'surprising' omissions to the point where Ive had to go through them again to see if Ive msised anythign.I prob wont get on it till wed/thur but no data on the breakdown of BTL/FHL as a %age of the mrotgage book and it's a £2.7bn balance sheet.

There was also no stage 1/2/3 data for the mrotgage book.

If you could have a look I'd be grateful as I keep runnign voer it wondering where it is?

It's going to be one of thsoe psots where we talk more about whats' not in the report than what is.

Weird really,If they had shareholders that some of the msot importantn info they need to know and its no theere

https://www.cumberland.co.uk/about/results-archive

anyway ehres the piece on IO in FHL.I'd love to know the size of thsi market.Have you any idea who else is a big lender in it?

 

 

From Jan 2022-I honsetly dont know what could go wrong with a 75% IO FHL mortgage

https://www.money.co.uk/mortgages/guides/holiday-let-mortgages

Repost, to get the some of the tax advances listed.

The issue is that the flood of FHL have had an easy time, buying as a year or two before Coof (2020).
HMRC took the glove off on letting days *AND* handed them 10k.

The problem is - and I see this all the time - is if you fail to meet the letting hurdle then you are in shit as the tax relfief needs paying back.

One thing I see al the timer is a place being bought then up for sale 2 years alter as theyve failed to meet the hurdle.

Onesies favourite - and I was talking to my mum, unprompted by me, about this last night.

https://www.cottages.com/cottages/grande-view-uk38330

 

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/details/england-12240631?s=3dd7c13cde5785d2f9b9f5df862393cbb0d5a1975eb7cd6c1241a39734485894#/

Date sold	Percentage change from last sold price	Sold price	Property	Tenure
30 Nov 2020		£710,000	Detached	Freehold

 

 

 

 

 

[spygirl]

https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/lifestyle/homes-and-gardens/inside-this-luxurious-ps800000-eco-home-for-sale-near-whitby-4543603

New blurb,

[spygirl]

Original blurb - 

https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/lifestyle/homes-and-gardens/in-pictures-take-a-look-inside-this-fabulous-self-build-home-near-whitby-and-its-up-for-sale-2911427

A grand design, which became a grand dead weight.

Whats that?

I cant be a fire as its on a rug.

 

 

[With a crooked smile]

3 hours ago, One percent said:

A disaster for the tourist industry

Less holiday let's is hardly a disaster if you own a hotel!

A bit like the "BTL is fucked" argument on here I doubt much will actually change.

[One percent]

1 minute ago, With a crooked smile said:

Less holiday let's is hardly a disaster if you own a hotel!

A bit like the "BTL is fucked" argument on here I doubt much will actually change.

And hotels is where tourists should be, not in places that could be homes.  

[Democorruptcy]

3 hours ago, One percent said:

Why should they get tax breaks such as off their mortgage repayments and anything they spend on furniture and the like.  

Is it because they have put Whitby on the map?

[One percent]

3 minutes ago, Democorruptcy said:

Is it because they have put Whitby on the map?

Whitby was long on the map before tourists. Steeped in history we are. 

[With a crooked smile]

3 hours ago, One percent said:

Why should they get tax breaks such as off their mortgage repayments and anything they spend on furniture and the like.  

They will continue to. They will just form Ltd companies and do it that way.