Property developers/housebuilders going bust

[Stuey]

1 hour ago, Ash4781b said:

Colleague told me we’re quoted £260 a day for a painter decorator. They had to supply materials. I don’t know whether that’s a fair price. Edit I t sounds expensive but everyone got to earn a living.    
 

When I try to get quotes they either no show or don’t return calls. Guess they want the big jobs

I think I got about four rooms done (no ceiling, but complicated stairwell) for about £200. Paid cash and my memory is poor 

Two blokes eight hours. Just whitewall and bit of gloss. Up north though. 

Obviously for them it was a piece of piss and easy money, but saved this laptop monkey a hell of a lot of unwanted work. 

[Ash4781b]

1 hour ago, crashmonitor said:

Margins on newbuilds at the Peak of the housing bubble in August 22 were about 20%. That 20% will be completely eroded by the Summer 24...CPI will be up about 11 or 12% over the two years, and inventory values down by about 10% over the two years. In other words beyond the middle of 24 the maths for profiting from building houses won't work. The Construction Industry will fall into a deep recession.

Brick manufacturers are mothballing plants. Interesting about those margins. How do they come back? Falling land values ?

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2023/10/11/forterra-to-mothball-another-brick-factory/

[ste]

3 hours ago, Ash4781b said:

How do they come back? Falling land values ?

Government gibs probably.

They probably already own chunks of land paid at prices that reflect the margin that is no longer there. Tricky business, it doesn't earn them anything sitting undeveloped, at the same time it's a weird business just to stop and down tools and wait when demand is probably there still.

[Long time lurking]

 

[Wight Flight]

8 hours ago, Ash4781b said:

Colleague told me we’re quoted £260 a day for a painter decorator. They had to supply materials. I don’t know whether that’s a fair price. Edit I t sounds expensive but everyone got to earn a living.    
 

When I try to get quotes they either no show or don’t return calls. Guess they want the big jobs

That'll be well under £50k per year net.

Doesn't seem unreasonable for a skilled bloke that will have buggered his body by 50.

[Rare Bear]

On 19/10/2023 at 20:09, One percent said:

London trades have far superior skills to the bodgeit and creepaway lot up here.  Mind, I’ve now got a sound plumber, electrician and joiner. There is a hell of a lot of crap out there.  

There's a Pakistani owned builders merchants/hardware shop around the corner from me. Sound people. The owner is often laughing at some of the EE chancers who come in to buy the bits to do a job and be told how to do it at the same time.

[One percent]

Just now, Rare Bear said:

There's a Pakistani owned builders merchants/hardware shop around the corner from me. Sound people. The owner is often laughing at some of the EE chancers who come in to buy the bits to do a job and be told how to do it at the same time.

Some of them do integrate. It’s the ones that don’t that are the problem. 
 

mack to the quality of builders, most of them here still wear spurs.  

[spunko]

https://www.independent.co.uk/business/vistry-says-housing-market-slowdown-persists-and-plans-200-job-cuts-b2434259.html

Vistry says housing market slowdown persists and plans 200 job cuts

“This trend has continued and we have not seen the seasonal increase in private sales since September that we had expected,” Vistry said in an update to investors.

[spygirl]

1 hour ago, spunko said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/business/vistry-says-housing-market-slowdown-persists-and-plans-200-job-cuts-b2434259.html

Vistry says housing market slowdown persists and plans 200 job cuts

“This trend has continued and we have not seen the seasonal increase in private sales since September that we had expected,” Vistry said in an update to investors.

That painter n decorator day rate will be suddenly getting cheaper.

Always happens property/building cycle.

Wokr dires up and all the trades become Ps n Ds - just to get ££££

I think Ive only met one buidler - as in proper builder - who plans for downturns and puts money/house to do up aisde in lean times.

 

 

[One percent]

Had my plumber round yesterday to service my boiler. His son is a platerer and has been working on a new build development here in town. It’s a relatively small development, good quality build, no timber frames. Anyhow, sales have apparently fallen off a cliff. It’s ok though as the social housing company has agreed to take another 18 units off their hands.  It’ll be either scratters from the conurbations or gimmigrants.  My money is on gimmegrants. 

[leonardratso]

more home made movie stuff eh.

Good luck in whitstan.

[onlyme]

27 minutes ago, One percent said:

Had my plumber round yesterday to service my boiler. His son is a platerer and has been working on a new build development here in town. It’s a relatively small development, good quality build, no timber frames. Anyhow, sales have apparently fallen off a cliff. It’s ok though as the social housing company has agreed to take another 18 units off their hands.  It’ll be either scratters from the conurbations or gimmigrants.  My money is on gimmegrants. 

Another reason not have have anything to do with buying in this newbuild market - get £20K of kickbacks on a property that is still vastly overpriced and end up on a brand new sink estate.

 

[Frank Hovis]

I mentioned this on another thread.

Acorn Blue, part of Acorn, is converting the M&S building in Falmouth, on the main Street, backs directly into the harbour, into apartments.

They have a big hoarding up announcing this and also that you have the opportunity to invest in this particular development by buying shares in it; developers do usually set up a new limited company for each big development in case it goes horribly wrong so that they can cut it adrift without bringing down the whole group. It's a sensible precaution.

I've not previously heard of this opportunity to invest in a particular development, either Acorn is running short of capital or they are looking to reduce their exposure on this particular one.

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/marks--spencer-store-falmouth-4889294

 

[spygirl]

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23880654.alixpartners-produces-final-report-administration-ilke-homes/

Biggy.

Threw in towel this week.

Stinks.

 

[spygirl]

uPVC.

And the shittier rip off end of uPVC

Safestyle UK administration live as 600 Barnsley workers 'told to down tools'

GMB said 600 workers in South Yorkshire were told to 'down tools' on Friday afternoon

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/safestyle-uk-administration-live-600-28001416

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/23886113.workers-upset-safestyles-intention-appoint-administrators/

Ah, victim of gobal wamring - 

Business Live reports that the the Bradford-based firm is facing uncertainty after weaker demand during warm weather last month. The company, one of the UK's largest windows and doors companies, posted pre-tax losses of £6.7m in the first half of 2023.

 

[CVG]

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/major-south-west-building-firm-8875633?fbclid=IwAR2nKWASwJIz0YKaoznrEi1FhtLXnm6RRmJ9jZhYPCZKWlY95LxvsChbtCQ

[Frank Hovis]

2 hours ago, CVG said:

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/major-south-west-building-firm-8875633?fbclid=IwAR2nKWASwJIz0YKaoznrEi1FhtLXnm6RRmJ9jZhYPCZKWlY95LxvsChbtCQ

 

I'm not one to downplay such stories, and building firms are definitely tumbling in the SW, but I hadn't heard of Brady Construction.

[roundhouse]

9 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

 

I'm not one to downplay such stories, and building firms are definitely tumbling in the SW, but I hadn't heard of Brady Construction.

Yes the name wasn't familiar to me either until seeing  the logo. They built the new creative workspace building in Liskeard's former cattle market going by a photo taken last April. It opened recently, Had a geek inside, great room sizes but pricey, and I hope it takes off for the town. And is without problems as the builders have gone under...

[onlyme]

Starting to bite at all levels now.

Oakwood garden rooms - did some of the best outbuilding videos and good rep.

 

 

[Heart's Ease]

1 hour ago, onlyme said:

Starting to bite at all levels now.

Oakwood garden rooms - did some of the best outbuilding videos and good rep.

 

 

Thanks for posting. Watched a lot of his videos on cladding/finishing around windows and doors when we were building our hut. Knows his stuff. 

Good on him re Candlelighters.

[Onsamui]

On 24/10/2023 at 15:48, Frank Hovis said:

I mentioned this on another thread.

Acorn Blue, part of Acorn, is converting the M&S building in Falmouth, on the main Street, backs directly into the harbour, into apartments.

They have a big hoarding up announcing this and also that you have the opportunity to invest in this particular development by buying shares in it; developers do usually set up a new limited company for each big development in case it goes horribly wrong so that they can cut it adrift without bringing down the whole group. It's a sensible precaution.

I've not previously heard of this opportunity to invest in a particular development, either Acorn is running short of capital or they are looking to reduce their exposure on this particular one.

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/marks--spencer-store-falmouth-4889294

 

Acorn bought our holiday home business in Porth. The scheme went bust and they sold it on to Kingsley I believe, who sold it on to another developer who went bust.  It was bought again and the development is now finished.

[spunko]

I dont understand how you can run a business with 30-40% profit margin, to bust, just because demand has dropped. Even if there is zero demand / sales, you should have enough in the kitty to tide you over - they make literally millions in profit for even a small development of ~10 houses.

I vageuly know a property developer who builds about 50 houses a year, he has recently knocked down his house that he bought for £1.3m to rebuild some McMansion. Bet hes bricking it now....

[Rare Bear]

27 minutes ago, spunko said:

I dont understand how you can run a business with 30-40% profit margin, to bust, just because demand has dropped. Even if there is zero demand / sales, you should have enough in the kitty to tide you over - they make literally millions in profit for even a small development of ~10 houses.

I vageuly know a property developer who builds about 50 houses a year, he has recently knocked down his house that he bought for £1.3m to rebuild some McMansion. Bet hes bricking it now....

Once upon a time a builder said to me that it's almost impossible not to make a gross profit but it's very hard to make a net profit.

[leonardratso]

5 hours ago, spunko said:

I dont understand how you can run a business with 30-40% profit margin, to bust, just because demand has dropped. Even if there is zero demand / sales, you should have enough in the kitty to tide you over - they make literally millions in profit for even a small development of ~10 houses.

I vageuly know a property developer who builds about 50 houses a year, he has recently knocked down his house that he bought for £1.3m to rebuild some McMansion. Bet hes bricking it now....

A lot of companies and people seem to be like that, seemingly going good but obviously running on razor sharp margins, either that or they piss away everything all the time and so have a pot of near zero for when the bad times arrive. They go down very quickly when the shit hits the fan yet seemingly lasted for years or even decades on good times and even on tick over times. I find it amazing.
PS. countries much the same - ie japan, from rich to poor(ie mess) in the blink of an eye.

[Wight Flight]

2 hours ago, leonardratso said:

A lot of companies and people seem to be like that, seemingly going good but obviously running on razor sharp margins, either that or they piss away everything all the time and so have a pot of near zero for when the bad times arrive. They go down very quickly when the shit hits the fan yet seemingly lasted for years or even decades on good times and even on tick over times. I find it amazing.
PS. countries much the same - ie japan, from rich to poor(ie mess) in the blink of an eye.

Not really surprising.

it is quite easy to expand when your sales are growing, but can be surprisingly expensive to contract if they are falling.

A 20 staff company could have a healthy balance sheet, but a £200k unstated redundancy liability, and another £200k on property lease cancellation and repair liabilities can very quickly make it unviable.