Death Of London

[wherebee]

9 hours ago, Knickerless Turgid said:

A good mate is high up in the Personnel function of a major bank.

Productivity has doubled with people working from home; no plans to re-open the head office until Easter at the earliest and, even then, many/most won't be going back full time.

Things being measured have doubled.

Things not measurable have declined.  For example, company loyalty.  When I ran teams inside large organisations, you could build up brand loyalty so that even if offered pay rises by competitors people would not leave because they felt part of a family. 

Remote working?  A move to the Asian model where employees will move for an extra dollar an hour is much more likely.

[ashestoashes]

17 hours ago, Knickerless Turgid said:

A good mate is high up in the Personnel function of a major bank.

Productivity has doubled with people working from home; no plans to re-open the head office until Easter at the earliest and, even then, many/most won't be going back full time.

they built all these casual meeting areas where they could have water cooler chats and now realise it was impacting productivity, but they're missing out on the benefit of exchange of ideas

[sarahbell]

17 minutes ago, ashestoashes said:

they built all these casual meeting areas where they could have water cooler chats and now realise it was impacting productivity, but they're missing out on the benefit of exchange of ideas

You can have zoom sessions to just chat and move out into breakout rooms. Less spontaneous perhaps. But the telephone works just as well as it did last year too. Ring people for a quick answer and chat briefly. Connecting with humans is important and it doesn't take much effort.

[Don Coglione]

9 hours ago, wherebee said:

Things being measured have doubled.

Things not measurable have declined.  For example, company loyalty.  When I ran teams inside large organisations, you could build up brand loyalty so that even if offered pay rises by competitors people would not leave because they felt part of a family. 

Remote working?  A move to the Asian model where employees will move for an extra dollar an hour is much more likely.

I did not dare ask how productivity was measured, for fear of the barrage of buzzword KPIs...

To be fair, my mate is as cynical and non-corporate as they come. Fuck knows how he has got away with it for so long.

I once worked for a sales-orientated company that, slyly, decided to count every sales person's keystrokes, to see who was "performing". Conversion ratio of enquiries to quotations to sales? You what?

[sarahbell]

11 minutes ago, Knickerless Turgid said:

I did not dare ask how productivity was measured, for fear of the barrage of buzzword KPIs...

To be fair, my mate is as cynical and non-corporate as they come. Fuck knows how he has got away with it for so long.

I once worked for a sales-orientated company that, slyly, decided to count every sales person's keystrokes, to see who was "performing". Conversion ratio of enquiries to quotations to sales? You what?

That's hysterical. 

Everyone knows keystrikes mean sales. Lol.

 

[wherebee]

16 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

That's hysterical. 

Everyone knows keystrikes mean sales. Lol.

 

fuck me.

 

so two employees.  both do identical work.  but one make more typing mistakes than the other and has to delete and retype.  BETTER!

[Don Coglione]

26 minutes ago, wherebee said:

fuck me.

 

so two employees.  both do identical work.  but one make more typing mistakes than the other and has to delete and retype.  BETTER!

Exactly.

Fortunately, the sales staff were unaware that the directors were doing this, so didn't try to game the situation.

Fucking mental place - potential gold-mine too.

 

[spygirl]

UK faces white-collar jobs crisis as pandemic ends decades of job security

Thousands in middle management and professional roles set to be hit after initial blue-collar cuts

https://www.ft.com/content/596e49d9-1283-47b3-a771-1c0beebd7df5

“Every time I deliver a parcel, I wonder why I went to university, worked for three blue-chip companies then ran my own successful business only to be crushed by Covid,” said Ade Smith, who is now working as a delivery driver in his 50s.

“Grafting” is how he describes travelling around the Surrey suburbs in 35 degree heat trying to deliver a Dyson fan — but he is nonetheless grateful for the work.

Mr Smith is one of thousands from comfortable, white-collar managerial backgrounds facing an uncertain future as the UK enters its worst recession on record. 

[spygirl]

Just wait till the BBC lay offs start in earnest......

 

[Frank Hovis]

1 minute ago, spygirl said:

UK faces white-collar jobs crisis as pandemic ends decades of job security

Thousands in middle management and professional roles set to be hit after initial blue-collar cuts

https://www.ft.com/content/596e49d9-1283-47b3-a771-1c0beebd7df5

“Every time I deliver a parcel, I wonder why I went to university, worked for three blue-chip companies then ran my own successful business only to be crushed by Covid,” said Ade Smith, who is now working as a delivery driver in his 50s.

“Grafting” is how he describes travelling around the Surrey suburbs in 35 degree heat trying to deliver a Dyson fan — but he is nonetheless grateful for the work.

Mr Smith is one of thousands from comfortable, white-collar managerial backgrounds facing an uncertain future as the UK enters its worst recession on record. 

Does it really?

I have heard of these companies where managers do nothing except manage but I have never encountered one.

Everywhere I have worked the managers, in addition to managing, are expected to do full jobs and to be technically better than their staff in most areas.

If all they are doing is sitting in meetings and remote working has made it obvious that they produce nothing of value then absolutely swing that axe; at every company I've worked they have been the most valuable staff because of their knowledge, skill and experience.  That is why they are the managers.  

[MrPin]

I expect there will be fewer managers required, when there are fewer to manage.

Some managers are completely useless @Frank Hovis. One who was my boss many years ago became a driving instructor. Not exactly a great career move.

[stop_the_craziness]

6 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

Does it really?

I have heard of these companies where managers do nothing except manage but I have never encountered one.

Everywhere I have worked the managers, in addition to managing, are expected to do full jobs and to be technically better than their staff in most areas.

If all they are doing is sitting in meetings and remote working has made it obvious that they produce nothing of value then absolutely swing that axe; at every company I've worked they have been the most valuable staff because of their knowledge, skill and experience.  That is why they are the managers.  

We have this argument all the time at my place.  I believe that if you are the manager of a technical team then you need to be, for want of a better phrase Chief Technician.  It's not possible to plan the resource of your team or distribute the work evenly and fairly if you don't know what each project involves or how long it takes.  None of the technical managers in any of the organisations where I have worked have had this knowledge or skill and it's really been obvious.  I would love to work for a technical boss who knows more than I do and could provide useful advice and input.  Or even just someone who knew what I did and how I did it would be nice.

[Frank Hovis]

22 minutes ago, stop_the_craziness said:

We have this argument all the time at my place.  I believe that if you are the manager of a technical team then you need to be, for want of a better phrase Chief Technician.  It's not possible to plan the resource of your team or distribute the work evenly and fairly if you don't know what each project involves or how long it takes.  None of the technical managers in any of the organisations where I have worked have had this knowledge or skill and it's really been obvious.  I would love to work for a technical boss who knows more than I do and could provide useful advice and input.  Or even just someone who knew what I did and how I did it would be nice.

I think it's a basic requirement that a manager can do the job of each of his team.  I'd expect them to be slower but to understand it in sufficient detail to be able to do it.

I have mostly worked in Finance / Accounting where this has always been the case.  No exceptions.

The worst area by a country mile has been Credit Control - idiot managers - and then IT - where there are some managers who do not understand the technology.

[Wight Flight]

12 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I think it's a basic requirement that a manager can do the job of each of his team.  I'd expect them to be slower but to understand it in sufficient detail to be able to do it.

I have mostly worked in Finance / Accounting where this has always been the case.  No exceptions.

The worst area by a country mile has been Credit Control - idiot managers - and then IT - where there are some managers who do not understand the technology.

Agreed.

A production manager that can't run the machinery will just be given the run around by his team.

Though oddly I can't run a big litho printing press. But I do not exactly how they work, and what they can and cannot do.

[UnconventionalWisdom]

44 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I think it's a basic requirement that a manager can do the job of each of his team.  I'd expect them to be slower but to understand it in sufficient detail to be able to do it.

I have mostly worked in Finance / Accounting where this has always been the case.  No exceptions.

The worst area by a country mile has been Credit Control - idiot managers - and then IT - where there are some managers who do not understand the technology.

Saw a shark tank Australia episode and one of the guys asked the techie in the company, "did you write the software?", answer, "no", next question, "could you if you had to?". That's what you want, not necessarily someone who has done the job but someone who could if they needed to.

[ccc]

My dad tells me the problem with sales is they always make the best salespeople managers - but they're not managers - they're salespeople 

I don't actually see the problem with a person whose not a technical expert being in charge of technical experts in general.

Managing is just organising really. 

But yes a person who is very good at organising AND also knows the detail of the job is the ideal set up.

[Bornagain]

5 hours ago, ccc said:

Managing is just organising really. 

Depends on what you are managing.

I made may living as an Engineer in Chemical/Pharma manufacturing, in this environment if the manager of the department did not have a reasonable understanding of what we do and how we do it, then ultimately chaos reigns and everything goes to shit.

My last 24 years were for the same global company, they started out having technical managers, but over the last 10 years or so, they seem to have come to the view that anybody can manage; to some extent they are correct - anybody can do it - badly.....

If you don't fundamentally understand the science and technology then you have to employ somebody who does. Firms are not happy employing additional people -but they seem to enjoy hiring consultants - so consultants steer the ship. In my experience, consultants steer the ship in the direction that best suits them, not necessarily in the best direction for the client.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Bornagain

[Chewing Grass]

I work for an Engineering 'Consultancy' (in quotation marks for a reason) and it has the above stamped all over it.

[Frank Hovis]

5 hours ago, ccc said:

My dad tells me the problem with sales is they always make the best salespeople managers - but they're not managers - they're salespeople 

I don't actually see the problem with a person whose not a technical expert being in charge of technical experts in general.

Managing is just organising really. 

But yes a person who is very good at organising AND also knows the detail of the job is the ideal set up.

The main problem is that because they do not understand the work that their staff do then they are unable to assess how well they are doing it.

This leads to, amongst the better and more hardworking staff, resentment and ultimately departure as they will go somewhere where their efforts and hard work are rewarded.

Result: you end up with a team of slackers and incompetents.

[spygirl]

17 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

Does it really?

I have heard of these companies where managers do nothing except manage but I have never encountered one.

Everywhere I have worked the managers, in addition to managing, are expected to do full jobs and to be technically better than their staff in most areas.

If all they are doing is sitting in meetings and remote working has made it obvious that they produce nothing of value then absolutely swing that axe; at every company I've worked they have been the most valuable staff because of their knowledge, skill and experience.  That is why they are the managers.  

I have.

Note - I used to be a 'manager' I spent 1 day a week on 'managing' Rest was doing the complex work. MOst of my management was dealing with fuckups caused by managers/OaM dept, where you need to a senior person to go in a an shout at them for being idiots.

What happens is that being manager becomes the thing to aspire to, leaving the thing that the company makes it money on to die on its feet.

You get these idiots who spend all their time doing company internal stuff.

I  left my first job after Uni as the org had become unbearable. Id ended up with 3 managers and I was handling the the main customers accounts as the customer's people refused to interact with the managers as 'the were idiots who did not understand the product'

Id been there 2 years. Most of the management  had been there 10 years.

 

[BurntBread]

17 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

Does it really?

I have heard of these companies where managers do nothing except manage but I have never encountered one.

Everywhere I have worked the managers, in addition to managing, are expected to do full jobs and to be technically better than their staff in most areas.

If all they are doing is sitting in meetings and remote working has made it obvious that they produce nothing of value then absolutely swing that axe; at every company I've worked they have been the most valuable staff because of their knowledge, skill and experience.  That is why they are the managers.  

You have been very, very lucky, Frank (although your next post indicates that you have seen the contrary in other departments).

I have worked in an organisation where it was pretty clear that 75% of the managers contributed nothing - and therefore were a drain on morale, except to those who aspired to also be both well-paid and useless. That's a recipe for long-term (and even short-term) decline. The root cause of the malaise in that organisation was, first, that the company had moved to a business model that was more marketing-focused, and much less in need of technical advances (at least within the time-frame of the senior management's interest). You therefore had a large technical workforce with too little to do, which breeds infighting and politicking. Senior management did not have the stomach (or maybe just the attention, since they were focusing elsewhere) to cull 50%+ of the department, which was what was needed. The second problem with managers with too little to do, is that they get their roles (in the best scenario) from a combination of being technically good, and good with people (they should also be good strategic thinkers, but it's hard to see that at the time of promotion). That makes them prone to politics when their technical skills are under-utilised. In the organisation I worked in, this had been going on for so long that most of the managers had actually got their positions for political reasons (such as: will he support me in my next attempt at promotion etc?), and so there was an entire hierarchy of useless bullshitters.

I try to avoid both managers and management as much as possible, and just try to find out what I can do that needs to be done. Eventually though, I came under the control of one manager who was so parasitic and obstructive that I needed to walk. I would have either succumbed to the health consequences of stress (heart disease or whatever - I could feel it happening), or I would have crumbled and done something to myself. It's interesting how even one's own self-awareness can shrink to an inescapable point under the application of stress, and I'm fortunate that I walked in time. Quite a few people left shortly afterwards.

Anyway, I'm now in a much better position: a company that has more work than people, and I can choose the most interesting things to work on. Maybe it will all go to hell soon - but if so, it will be through mass lay-offs, not a lingering death of management politics.

[Roger_Mellie]

5 hours ago, ccc said:

My dad tells me the problem with sales is they always make the best salespeople managers - but they're not managers - they're salespeople 

I don't actually see the problem with a person whose not a technical expert being in charge of technical experts in general.

Managing is just organising really. 

But yes a person who is very good at organising AND also knows the detail of the job is the ideal set up.

Aaaah, the old adage - make your best sales guy the sales manager, lose a great sales guy and gain a shit manager. I've seen it loads of times in all functions - make your best scientist a manager, gain a shit manager and lose 10 good scientists.

Managing though is not organising, not in the corporate world. It's almost 100% politics and if you don't learn the tricks quickly you don't last 2 minutes.

[ccc]

4 minutes ago, Roger_Mellie said:

Aaaah, the old adage - make your best sales guy the sales manager, lose a great sales guy and gain a shit manager. I've seen it loads of times in all functions - make your best scientist a manager, gain a shit manager and lose 10 good scientists.

Managing though is not organising, not in the corporate world. It's almost 100% politics and if you don't learn the tricks quickly you don't last 2 minutes.

From my experience it's both. That's from witnessing not doing. 

Far too much politics involved though. It's ridiculous in places like banks. Just oozes with bullshit. 

[WorkingPoor]

2 hours ago, ccc said:

From my experience it's both. That's from witnessing not doing. 

Far too much politics involved though. It's ridiculous in places like banks. Just oozes with bullshit. 

Like your Spanish holiday claims? 

[spygirl]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8639849/Homeowner-says-taking-legal-action-against-wealthy-neighbour-dumped-waste-garden.html

Bed in sheds in extension in sheds in jerry built lean to.